Toner Transfer + Powder Coating -> would this work?

[chromesphere]

YO!

This might be a 'try and see' answer, but i thought prehaps its been tried before.

Basically i was thinking, if you could transfer toner, as in the PCB etch method (laserjet toner on magazine paper + hot iron), onto a bare enclosure, then powder coat over this, would it leave an embossed / raised effect?  Would the toner melt / mess up in the toaster oven after powder coating?  or prehaps the profile of the toner would be too low to be able to see a riased effect underneath the powdercoat...Or prehaps the powder wont stick where the toner is....

Other idea is to powdercoat first, then transfer the toner ontop, but i fear that the iron is going to melt the powdercoating.  I mean, powdercoating is tough stuff, but i dont think it can withstand a hot iron.

Just an idea..what are your thoughts?

Paul

[bean]

I won't speak to your suggestion cause I got no idea. But, if you want to try some cheap embossing, get some of that silver roofing tape stuff at a big box store. Use a pen and write on the back side (in reverse), Then peel and stick on the enclosure. It works. Maybe doing this and then powder coating over it? The edges of the tape might be sufficiently masked with the powder.

[chromesphere]

Hey Brian!
Thanks for the suggestion, ill have to check that out!
Just trying to think up some new ways of labelling pedals...I'd like to screen print ultimately, but it always turns into a nightmare when i start researching it...including set up costs etc...
I might just give it a try on some scrap metal and see what happens.
Paul

[davent]

I've been doing "wet"  toner transfers with, i think, really good  results for a while now, rather then messing with decals. At it's simplest all that's involved is printing a mirror image of your art with a laser printer. Glue it to your enclosure with an acrylic medium allow to dry (overnight) then use water soak the paper and rub the paper away. Will take a couple dry/re-wet/rub cycles to get all the paper off but it does all come off.

Haven't tried on a powdercoated enclosure.

From the pic thread the pedals i've used toner transfers on so far.

http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=36392.msg848156#msg848156
Large lettering was done with a stencils the rest toner transfers
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=36392.msg864067#msg864067
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=36392.msg876565#msg876565
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=36392.msg880094#msg880094

Better explanation of process here.
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=36392.msg876642#msg876642

[chromesphere]

Holy crap thats cool! 
How come you cant see any glue leftover?  Does it rub off in the water?  Do you have a tutorial on how you go about this method?
Paul

[davent]

Hi Paul,

The medium can dry and leave edges, it doesn't rub off but with care you can knock the edges down with sandpaper. I was looking for an easy way to get around making decal edges dissappear and stumbled on this in an art book.

On the first(?) Bazz Fuss picture in the first link above, you can clearly see the paper edges  but for that one i was cutting out little slips of paper and sticking them on. I found that if i cut out an over-sized piece of paper surrounding the image, only spread a pool of medium big enough to stick down the image area and then used a brayer to smooth the image onto the enclosure, there's nowhere for the medium to collect and create edges. Once you rub off the paper you're left with a smooth surface. The Bazz Fuss was the first experiment to see what could be done.

No tutorial out there for doing this on stompboxes but i did find tutorials for doing transfers to paper so figured it should work for what i needed. This is pretty much the method. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7DFuJt3mvw

The medium i'm using is called GAC200 and is made by Golden.

Art hinged onto enclosure for a full face transfer.


Most of the paper removed in this photo, you can see how smooth surface is, a bit of ripple but not really any edges to speak of, the toner is imbedded in the medium.  it didn't take too many coats of clear (airbrushed) after the paper was all removed, to get the final completely smooth surface.


dave
Was trying last night to post this but kept getting a server error notice, all's well again.

[chromesphere]

Hey Davent thanks for the info!  Your results look great and i think you have the process down pretty well.

For me, the only thing stopping me from trying it is the left over uneven layer of arcylic after you remove the paper.  Am i correct in saying you have to clear coat once or multiple times to disguise the arcylic?
I suppose i usually clearcoat at least once anyway.  Does doing this disguise it well?
Paul

[davent]

I'm pretty annal  so i apply multiple layers of clearcoat, the airbrush lays on very thin layers and can recoat every couple of hours with the waterbase lacquer i've been using. The number needed is far less then when i was making decals dissappear as you can be quite abit more aggressive with the level sanding and it's all much smoother to start with.

dave

[jimmybjj]

I don't think the original idea will work, if it does it will be a very very subtle effect. I have achieved a embossed effect using vinyl and powder coating over. When using one layer that is 2.5mil thick. For the picture below i believe i used 3 or 4 layers of vinyl

[chromesphere]

I was thinking of a similar thing with these renoir 3d stickers i have, but i figured they would melt / burn / catch fire in the oven.  Vinyl obviously survives.  I think i have seen those on ebay.

[Jdansti]

Hi Paul,

The medium can dry and leave edges, it doesn't rub off but with care you can knock the edges down with sandpaper. I was looking for an easy way to get around making decal edges dissappear and stumbled on this in an art book.

On the first(?) Bazz Fuss picture in the first link above, you can clearly see the paper edges  but for that one i was cutting out little slips of paper and sticking them on. I found that if i cut out an over-sized piece of paper surrounding the image, only spread a pool of medium big enough to stick down the image area and then used a brayer to smooth the image onto the enclosure, there's nowhere for the medium to collect and create edges. Once you rub off the paper you're left with a smooth surface. The Bazz Fuss was the first experiment to see what could be done.

No tutorial out there for doing this on stompboxes but i did find tutorials for doing transfers to paper so figured it should work for what i needed. This is pretty much the method. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7DFuJt3mvw

The medium i'm using is called GAC200 and is made by Golden.

Art hinged onto enclosure for a full face transfer.


Most of the paper removed in this photo, you can see how smooth surface is, a bit of ripple but not really any edges to speak of, the toner is imbedded in the medium.  it didn't take too many coats of clear (airbrushed) after the paper was all removed, to get the final completely smooth surface.


dave
Was trying last night to post this but kept getting a server error notice, all's well again.

Dave,

Maybe I missed it, but how do you line up the transfer, especially to make sure the outline of the large text is in the right place?

[chromesphere]

On the first(?) Bazz Fuss picture in the first link above, you can clearly see the paper edges  but for that one i was cutting out little slips of paper and sticking them on. I found that if i cut out an over-sized piece of paper surrounding the image, only spread a pool of medium big enough to stick down the image area and then used a brayer to smooth the image onto the enclosure, there's nowhere for the medium to collect and create edges. Once you rub off the paper you're left with a smooth surface. The Bazz Fuss was the first experiment to see what could be done.

You have already answered my question davent about the acrylic leaving an uneven surface, sorry im just trying to get my head around the information, its starting to make sense!  Thanks!

Also, interested to hear the answer to jdansti question

Thanks again for your time mate!

Paul

[davent]

Like that Black Muff, very cool!

No problem guys. The holes cut into the printout match the holes that have been drilled into the enclosure. I create a drilling template in a CAD program print that out, stick it to the box, centerpunch with an optical center punch, and drill out the holes. The drilling template is used to create the labeling either continuing with the CAD program or of late, importing the template into Inkscape and using that to create labeling as well as mirror the art, my CAD program won't mirror lettering.

Next print out just the mirrored labeling plus the art showing the holes (you need more then one hole) you will use for alignment. I use a circle cutter/compass to cut a hole slightly bigger then the hole that's been drilled in the enclosure, you could cut a square around the hole, just has to accurate.

Take the printout align the holes in your printout with their mates in the enclosure and  tape the printout to the enclosure along one edge, this is your hinge. You can now flip the printout up out the the way apply your medium to the enclusure, flip the printout back down onto the medium and it will end up where you wanted it. Brayer  to smooth it out and ensure good contact and leave to dry overnight. (I put a piece of wax paper over the printout before brayering it smooth)


The RCOMP was a bit different, it was a reused enclosure with some new holes added, didn't have a drilling template and was painted a couple years ago, the blue RCOMP  was painting using a stencil cut from frisket film, i did have the art for that word and lettering as i'd been trying to do a full face decal to no avail.. I scanned the top of the enclosure opened in Inkscape, drew holes that corresponded to the drill holes, adjusted the control labelling based on the holes in the enclosure, tweaked the black border to match where it was painted on the enclosure and fattened the outline to disguise sloppy stencil cutting. Before i applied the art i printed it to a transparency to check how it looked and needed a bit of further refining before finally mirroring and printing out...



Aligned and taped. That's the smallest hole, around the pot holes, that the circle cutter will do. Ignore printing on back of paper just using up the rejects and trials.

Hinged

Applied

There we go! The Bazz Fuss was done just using the edges of the enclosure for alignment, pretty random experiment to see what could could be achieved.
dave

[Jdansti]

^ Thanks, Dave!  This is an excellent technique and I appreciate you going through the trouble to put together a tutorial with photos. (BTW, the video you referenced really helped me understand the basic process).  I think we'll be seeing some more wet toner transfers!

I suspected that you used the holes for alignment, but I wasn't sure due to the difference in hole size between the paper and the enclosure. I never would have thought to scan a used enclosure to make a template of the holes. That's a great idea.

Thanks again! 

[R O Tiree]

Dave, what are you using for the lacquer coat, please? Another "Golden" product?

[davent]

You're welcome John, i'm toatally sold on this as an alternative to decal film.

I first tried cutting the alignment holes in the paper the same size as the enclosure holes but i find it easier line things up if the hole is slightly larger, easiesr to see what's hgoing on andi was up against the limits of the cutter for small hole sizes.

When i've done pseudo-silkscreens for pcb's the easiest way to acheive good alignment is to first trim the pcb down to the pcb outline but for the silkscreen art, draw a new border around the pcb outline so you can see white between the pcb and the new border. When you lay the pcb onto the art it's esay to see whether you have the pcb centered within the new larger border. For enclosues i apply the medium to the enclosure then apply the art, for silkscreens i have the artwork tape to the bench, apply medium to the artwork then lay the pcb into the medium.

Outside of the primers, all the paints, mediums and lacquers are waterbased and play nice with each other. When i first switched to acrylic paints i continued with spray can lacquer, always the same brand, Some of the enclosures still look like the day they were finished others, the clearcoat is all cracked and crazed. Complete mystery to me as why this occured, temperature, humidity, change of formulation?  So far, since switching to waterbased lacquers,  a number of years ago no such problems with the bonus i can use these indoors year 'round.

dave

[davent]

Dave, what are you using for the lacquer coat, please? Another "Golden" product?

Hi Mike,

I'm using airbrushes for applying clearcoat and was using StewMac's housebrand waterbased 'guitar' lacquer which they've discountinued. They replaced that with Target 7000 'waterclear' waterbased spray lacquer which is widely distributed and i found a Canadian distributor which simplifies things greatly. Will even ship in winter with a heat pack. I've found it works great for my purposes, how well it might stand up to aggressive abuse, i'm not sure.

I've also tried Varathane waterbased Varnish (Bazz Fuss above), found it always remains slightly milky to my eye also Polycrylic by Minwax which is much better. They both gave ok results but are comprimised for spraying.

https://www.targetcoatings.com/product-support.html
General is another company that has recommended waterbased spray lacquers but i went with what was available easily and am completely happy at this point.
dave

[chromesphere]

Thanks Dave for showing us the process!  Although i probably wont undertake something as elaborate (and of course awesome looking) as yours, im going to keep the tone transfer method in mind for future builds!
Paul

[Beo]

Dave, a question (sorry if already covered).
 When you do the wet transfer, is this straight onto acrylic color that you have let dry, or have you applied an acrylic clearcoat before the transfer? Is there any concern about the water used to rub off the paper causing the acrylic to re-wet and bleed?

Edit: Here's an additional question... is there a good aluminum primer that can be airbrushed? I usually use an etching primer out of a spray can, but I'm trying to find a complete interior winter solution for my painting needs.

Travis

[davent]

Dave, a question (sorry if already covered).
  When you do the wet transfer, is this straight onto acrylic color that you have let dry, or have you applied an acrylic clearcoat before the transfer? Is there any concern about the water used to rub off the paper causing the acrylic to re-wet and bleed?

Edit: Here's an additional question... is there a good aluminum primer that can be airbrushed? I usually use an etching primer out of a spray can, but I'm trying to find a complete interior winter solution for my painting needs.

Travis

Hi Travis,

I use lots of layers of clearcoat throughout the painting process, so at the very least before doing the transfer there are a couple light coats of clear on top of the paint. I use the same medium for clearcoating as i use for doing the transfer, Golden's GAC200 which is sold as an adhesion promoter and of their mediums, once dried, is hardest (i sand it back all the time) and totally transparent. For airbrushing it i mix it 2:1 with their Airbrush Medium, in their literature for this sprayed interference coat they say to mix GAC200 with Airbrush Extender but i've yet to find that product up here plus it's been spraying fine with my mix.

I apply the transfer using the GAC200 and will let it dry overnight before starting to remove the paper. In my early attempts tried to encourage  the drying with a hot airgun but my impatience was not rewarded.



Now just play it safe... once dry skuff up the back of the paper with some gritty sandpaper, spritz it with water and rub away. If any medium has found it's way onto the back of the transfer paper it becomes much more difficult to rub off the paper so the sandpaper helps with that situation. If things have gotten really wet you may see the interference coat starting to get milky, if it does, stop and let it all dry again, won't take very long because most of the paper is gone, always takes a few cycles anyways to remove every last bit of paper if i actually do get it all, have to be patient. Never had a problem with disturbing underlying paint while removing paper but have gone back with sandpaper and other sharp aggressive tools to get at the underlaying paint layers.

Like you, my outdoor spraying window of opportunity is now closed.  In warm weather I do the self-etching spray can primer and over that, airbrush BIN Stainblocker Shellac based Primer, high solids, sands well, cleans up with alcohol.(Use a single stage brush for this, super easy to cleanup the brush). In winter i've had good results with Auto Air Colors Direct to Metal Primer, first sand and clean enclosure with acetone, a few coats of the Auto Air (it's all waterbased acrylics) then over that use the BIN, no matter what i'm spraying i wear a two stage chemical respirator. The BIN primer is alcohol based and that smell dissipates in a big hurry, never had problems with using the BIN inside whereas other solvents and i'm a sick dog. After the BIN i'll coat with, depending on paints i'm going to use, either the GAC200 mix, Auto Air clear or white or black base, then onto the colours. Auto Air/Createx are becoming difficult to source up here so using more of the Golden products which are everywhere and they offer a huge assortment of mediums and paint colours, all compatable and offering endless mixing possibilties. I still have lots of Auto Air Primer but am having trouble locating it even on the web (part #4009). Looks like Valspar may have a Direct to Metal primer that could be of use, might be worth looking into.

The BIN is available in a spray can but it goes on nowhere near as nice as using an airbrush with the regular canned product.

The pedals primed both ways have stood up fine but they do lead a gentle life, i figure once they're done and the portraits taken... whatever happens, happens.

dave