Blue Box - octave problem

[Mario44]

I've assembled a blue box from TonePad's website, but something went wrong and there is no octave in this crazy octave fuzz.
When I turn blend pot to minimum I get nice fuzz, but on the other side of pot the sound comes dull and quieter, so no fancy octave synth-like sound.
And generaly even on clear fuzz this effect is quieter than bypassed signal, but that I could fix with my microamp or another booster. Already done C9 mod.
Pin 1 to 3 jumper mod does not affect the sound in any way. All parts like in the schematic except diodes - I've got 4148's
Cap's and diodes polarity - ok
transistors and IC's orientation are alright
I read many opinios about similar problems, but nothing was helpful to me.

[duck_arse]

it sounds a lot like you have a wiring/parts error somewhere on "the other side" of the pot. can we see pictures, and the voltages around q2 and q3 would help.

[Mario44]

Of course.

Q2
E. 0
B. 0,56
C. 1,08-1,43(blend pot min-max)

Q3
E. 0
B. 0,55
C. 1,22

Q1
E. 0
B. 0,57
C. 6,7

CD4013
1. 0
2. 8,6
3. 8,6
4. 0
5. 8,6
6-10. 0
11. 6,85
12. 6,85
13. 0
14. 8,65

edited voltages( I got swapped them in my mind, my mistake)

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/59/wyv4.jpg
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/46/dq4m.jpg
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/541/ukbq.jpg
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/202/xe54.jpg

[duck_arse]

ohh, I made a sound when I saw that soldering. you probably better get some metho or iso propol whatsis and clean off as much flux as you can.

about your 4013. pins9+12, 5+2, 3+13 should all have the same voltage, whether high or low, on both pins at the same time. yours aren't. you better check continuity with power off.

and voltages on the opamp?

[Mario44]

PCB cleaned, so no traces have "extra" unexpected connections. Continuity is perfect.
TL072 is ok, but 4013's volateges drive me crazy. It seems like it's changing. When pair 3-13 has 9V pair 2-5 has none, and vice-versa 2-5 has 9, 3-13 has 0. I saw Q1

TL072
1. 4,5
2. 4,5
3. 4
4. 0
5. 4,5
6. 4,5
7. 5
8. 9

For this moment 4013 has
1. 0( and somehow I can get 9 - it changes whenever it wants, lol)
2. 8,7 (but when I get 9 on pin1 here on 2 I have 0)
3. 8,7
4. 0
5. 8,7
6-10. 0
11. 6,6
12. 6,85
13. 8,7
14. 8,7
These voltages change, except 11 which has voltage from Q1 colector. The whole rest is mistery for me.
When pin 1 has 0 Q3 has C. 0,5   B. 0   E. 0  when 9 like above
I don't know if the socket isn't faulty. Continuity still ok and I have 2 different 4013 also, so do I have 2 screwed 4013s?
I remember I had almost similar problem with "tube sound fuzz" from TP. The IC was the problem, I had 4049BE while 4049UBE was working well with that circuit. Here in BB I've got only BE's. I doubt, but are there UBE versions pf 4013 produced too?
And trust me, this PCB looks much better in real than in those crappy pictures

[duck_arse]

well, it sounds to me you are explaining exactly the workings of a dual-d type flip-flop. ya put "1" (high, more than V/2 up to 9V) in here, and if this and this is high, you get high here and low here etc, etc, etc. the Q1 collector supplies your input signal squared-up to the f/f, and anything looking like a "1" will clock it. pins 12 and 13 are (almost) always opposite, so one is high while the other low, and the clock and data are set right, they change to the other state. because pin 12 and 9 are connected, the conditions are set to divide the input, from Q1, by 2. the second f/f does the same, so now you've divided by 4.

the pin1 output should be the input from Q1 all squared up, and at 1/4 the frequency you put in. mix that with the signal from Q1, and that's your octave down. but don't quote me.

http://pdf.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheets/270/500197_DS.pdf

if you've gat a day to spare, search up dual-d flip flop how it works. you can get a couple of leds and some push buttons, and watch the way the dividing goes. and learn flip-flops at he same time. maybe look for "logic probe" circuits, they fairly easy.

These voltages change, except 11 which has voltage from Q1 colector.

and if this is true, you've found a problem. the collector voltage has to do the clocking, so it should be following the guitar input signal in a squared-off manner.

as for ube, it means there are no buffers on the outputs of the logic gate, and it can be run in a linear manner, like an amplifier. if it has "be" or "b", it will be buffered, so you only gets 1's and 0's. flip-flops are where you want this behaviour.

[Mario44]

You explained it very clearly and now I see few things more than before, thanks.
I'm gonna try to do some test circuits for it in next few days.

But I still don't understand why I can't hear this beautiful sound like on videos.
Q1's colector voltage changes from 6,3 to 6,7 about when guitar is played and it dropps to 5,6 when i turn down volume pot in my guitar, so it does clock.

I've done some tests with my audio probe. When I got put it to pin 11, Q1 and Q3 collector the signal was more or less the same, BUT when i sticked to pin 3-13 I got nice lowered signal, so 1 octave down.
Tried to do the same with guitar. I made a switch jumping from pin 11 to 13, but the effect was still none. And same with jumping from 3 to 1.
Guitar sound goes through the effect with nice high gain and it lasts almost for ever, but when it comes to die out, something shredds the sound. So its 0 or 1 like You said before.
Any more ideas? 

[duck_arse]

For this moment 4013 has
1. 0( and somehow I can get 9 - it changes whenever it wants, lol)
2. 8,7 (but when I get 9 on pin1 here on 2 I have 0)

^ from your earlier post. this is as it should be, pin1 is opposite of pin2, and the same goes for pin13 and pin12, but you show them as somewhere inbetween. is this still so? check those pins, and also check your continuity for all the pins going to ground.

can we have another photo of the topside, nice and close directly above, so we can see parts? don't worry so much about the upstandings, we'll work around that. otherwise, I'll havta breadb this myself, get a better idea wot I'm talking about.

[Mario44]

No problem with that. So far You are the only person who is helping me.

Pins are:
1. 0
2. 8,7

12. 8,7
13. 0

Ground pins(4,6,7,8,10) have connection with ground.
And here are photos of elements.
http://imageshack.com/a/img34/8231/1ool.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img17/1787/94bh.jpg

[duck_arse]

okey dokey. so prod pin 11 with a 10k connected to V+ and see if the voltages change. maybe 4 prods if they don't bounce, will get all the outputs flipped or flopped and back to where they are now. IF THAT IS THE CASE a) my maths is right, and b) you can stop looking at the 4013  for the problem.

it's time for bed now, I'll have a squint at yr pics tommorow.

[Mario44]

Alright!
When I touch pin 11 with current directly from 9V(that's how I understood) there comes 8,7 to pin1 and pin2 is 0. When I repeat pin1 goes back to 0 and pin2 has 8,7.
So, yes Your math is right.
But what I've seen after that operation pin11 voltage(so Q1 voltage too) is only 0,01V, so almost nothing + when I was doing that operation with 9V and pin11 I heard and saw a very little lightning.
Q1 voltages are now   C. 0,01 B. 0,01    and    Q2 C. 1,3 B. 0,01    Q3 C. 0,2 B.0 all E.0 , however 4013 is working.

[Mario44]

I plugged my guitar into this effect and now I can't even get that crazy fuzz like before. Only dull quiet fuzz, so I guess both trannies are down or maybe all of them.
That would say why voltages are so low.
I might have just fried them to death.
Tomorrow I might buy some more 3904's or any other similar NPN's if those won't be available.

[Mark Hammer]

The transistors on the output mixer part are crude noise gates, whose collectors get fed a voltage by the rectifier/envelope follower.  When the envelope-follower decays, the transistors stop conducting, and the sound cuts out.  Ideally they should cut out juuuuussssttt ahead of when the signal feeding the 4013 moves into the zone where it's hit or miss whether it will be sufficient to trigger a flip-flop stage.

This is the long way of saying that you need to consider the Blue Box as a combination of a noise gate and an octave divider.  Check the functioning of each separately.

[duck_arse]

mark, I was just going to say nearly exactly all that. except in about 2000 more words, as usual.

I put this on the breadbd today, went through and measured voltages all over w/ the cro and wrote them on my circuit, thort it was going great. then I plugged in, and saw the whacking great motorboating. so all that scribble is wrong.

now, after fixing a few wrongs, even w/ input shorted to ground, my 1458, tl072, lf353, lm833 are all producing a 9V squarewave at the output of the second opamp stage. seems locked to 50Hz at the moment. so I'm for  a rebuild tomorrow. anybody got any ideas wot I might be trying to fix?

mario, don't go buying anything just yet, unless it's a 4013 for me, mine is second hand. yr parts are unlikely to be scorched just yet. I was thinking about my prodding advice, and realised that if Q1 is right, it should be off with no signal, so the collector would be high. if you connect a 10k resistor to V+ one end, and prod the other end at the BASE of Q1, it should turn on/off and clock the 4013. but remember, you gotta prod 4 times to get your "bit" all the way to the end of the divider at pin 1 output.

I looked your board: what are the color bands on your R24, and your R5? what transistors are you using? what value for C3?

and the great man once said (the last post):

http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=35958.0;wap2

[Mario44]

C3 is 300p
R5 is 1k brown-black-red-gold 5%
R24 is 346R orange-yellow-blue-black-brown 1%

...it should be off with no signal, so the collector would be high.

The collector is same as Base, so 0,01

Prodding doesn't work. I tried to touch bottom side of the PCB where the pin11 R24 and Q1' colector is, but i had no voltage change on pin 1.

[duck_arse]

transistor type numbers? I ask because your's are opposite the vero diagram.

well, go back to the collector prodding that was working, and see if you can get a bit to move from the start to the end.

[Mario44]

Transistors are CT 2N3904. Left lug is colector, right lug is emiter (looking to flat side) so their orientation is good.

[Mario44]

I have build a Atari punk console and attached it to 4013 dividing circuit from BB schematic.
The signal is strong enough to get through and I can hear the signal dropped down 2 octaves or 1 octave when I make jumper between pin 1 and 3.
I think that signal on my PCB needs some MOAR gain before it entries the 4013.

[duck_arse]

GET YR METER, we're gonna fix this thing. I've written down all my measures from my working breadboard today, see where yours differ.

for readings marked "signal", yr audio probe output, connected to R3//R25 will do.

with 9V supply (reading 9V04)

IC1:
at pin1, on AC setting w/ signal, 2V8: on DC range, no signal, 4V5.
at pin7, on AC setting, 3V5, with or without signal (!)

at R15//C8, the rectifier output, on DC setting w/ signal 4V4, no signal ~0V.

transistor collectors:
Q1: from 4V2 to 4V9, on AC setting, signal or no signal.
Q2: AC setting, no signal 0V3, w/ signal 1V5 to 1V17, depending on R20 setting.
Q3: as for Q2.

at R18//R19, on AC setting w/ signal, 0V15 to 0V2, depending on mix pot.

on IC2, on AC setting, test pins 11, 13 and 1. they should all read about 4V2 to 5V, signal or no signal.

the maximum output level I measured, at C9//C10 was about 0V7 p-p, so there is not a lot of level to work with.

if you have AC voltages on the three pins on IC2, and the rectifier goes high with signal, it's working all the way to Q2 and 3.

let me know what you get. from your last, I'd suggest something between R10 and R19 is not quite right.

[edit:] in another thread it's just been pointed out that your circuit is working better than mine at the moment.

[Mario44]

with 9V supply (reading 8V94)

IC1:
at pin1, on AC setting w/ signal, 3V7: on DC range, no signal, 4V51.
at pin7, on AC setting w/ signal, 3V64, on DC range, no signal, 4V46.

at R15//C8, the rectifier output, on DC setting w/ signal 5V4, no signal 0V54.

transistor collectors:
Q1: 0V, on AC setting, signal or no signal.
Q2: AC setting, no signal 0V23, w/ signal 0V02 to 0V03, depending on R20 setting.
Q3: AC setting, no signal 0V15, w/ signal 0V,

at R18//R19, on AC setting w/ signal, min-middle-max0V4 to 0V6 to 0V4(parabolic, when guitar is plugged, I can hear the signal in the middle of blend pot becomes more sharp), depending on mix pot
on IC2, on AC setting, test pins 11, 13 and 1 all 0V