Rangemaster clone not liking some great vintage tube amps?

[Manolo Dudes]

I've made some Rangemaster clones so far but I have found a strange behaviour I cannot completely understand. I know the RMs like tube amps but I find that they love my modern Marshall DSL-201, my very good sounding Fender Champ clone but somehow dislikes an amazingly good sounding original '67 blackface Deluxe Reverb and another great '77 silverface Twin Reverb.

For some reason, the Rangemasters perform their wonderful magic with the first two but behave uglily with the later two jewels. With the vintage ones the sound is like an ugly fart with no natural decay and horrible distortion.

Why is it possible?...  any ideas?

[Jim Jones]

Hi Manolo Dudes,

You're not alone in having trouble with the RM and old non-Tweed Fenders.  Black and Silverface Fenders just don't seem to be a great match - old Marshalls and Voxes seem to be the best pairing.

Jim

[Manolo Dudes]

Yes, it seems to be true but I wonder why...

[petemoore]

Simply put: Voicing.
 and Clipping
 The 'ugliness content' percieved and put out by one amps interpretation of Rangemaster output may sound as 'character content' by another type of amp. You could re-voice the amp, or the Rangemaster with YMMV results, just use it with the amps that like it, Rangemasters are finickly about amps and voicing, best when 'fitted' to a setup that likes it.

[Manolo Dudes]

I suspected that.

R.G. Keen suggests an impedance mismatch with amps with dual 68K resistor array for input mixing due to the very low output impedance of that effect (read R.G.'s article on the Rangemaster) but Tweed amps also have that same array and work like a charm with RMs.

What is driving me nuts is that I see the very same behaviour with Fuzz Faces... are germanium effects and non-tweed Fenders an impossible affair?

[Skreddy]

I had a Rangemaster clone, with its level full up, actually sound quieter than the straight guitar signal into a very old, low-Watt Gibson guitar amp.  That was wierd.

[bwanasonic]

I never found the Rangemaster and Fender amps to be a match made in heaven, but usually it just produces a trebly/ *transistory* sound, not the *gatey/farty* sound you describe.  I have tested my RM with a silverface twin and just got an icepick in the eardrum. Don't have a blackface Deluxe around.

Curious
Kerry M

[Steben]

normally RM + Champ would have to sound like Page on Led Zeppelin II album. Verry trebly yet smoothed out in the studio (+mic placing).
Maybe the key is where the distortion comes from. Try to set RM not to max, so you just can hear almost no distortion at low master volume and then cranck up the 5 Watt 6V6 of the power amp.

Marshall was probably only used in solo in "heartbreaker".

[Manolo Dudes]

I never set my RM to max and still do not sound good with a '65 Blackface Champ I've tested it with recently. On the other hand, it sounds awesome with tweed fenders. As stated above it may have something to say with the voicing of the black/silver face Fenders... at least to my ears.

[Mojah63]

The voicing and gain structure in Later fenders is totally different than the tweeds. Marshalls are based on a tweed bassman.  Also fender used questionable coupling capacitors esp in some silverface models that can exasperate grainy treble. To some however that is the Magic of later fenders.
You can check out the prints here:

http://www.schematicheaven.com/

There is a site out with gut shots but I can't remember the url

[AL]

The RM is a treble boost and one thing a silverface twin does NOT need is more treble. I don't like Fuzz Faces with Fenders either - although I think they sound great with Marshalls. I have 2 blackface ('64 and '67) Bassmans and a silverface Quad Reverb and germanium just sounds horrible through them to my ears.

I much prefer a tube screamer and an LPB2 booster with a Fender. Most people I've let play an LPB through a Fender have the same opinion. Maybe you could try that one? It's a quick/easy build and really kicks the front end of a Fender - a little dirt and a little more sustain.

I'm currently using a Nobels ODR-S for a fuzz-type boost - I've also had good luck with a tweaked Big Muff too - through my Quad Reverb.

AL

[cd]

Personally, I love my Les Paul + RM + Twin Reverb (on 5) combo.  A Strat, OTOH, sounds terrible.

[andyhank]

There is a site out with gut shots but I can't remember the url

is this the one you're thing of?    http://www.acplink.com/

I never found the Rangemaster and Fender amps to be a match made in heaven, but usually it just produces a trebly/ *transistory* sound

FWIW, I've had the same results w/ my Audio Hotcake Pedal - great w/ Vox and Marshal amps, and sadly lacking w/ my BF Fender.

[corbs]

i'm currently trying a rangemaster build

have you tried adjusting the input cap value for a single coil / humbucker?

You may want to adjust the input cap. My Rangemaster clone sounds totally different with my (single coil) Tele than it does with my home-made humbucking thinline Tele, and so I use a different "range" by flipping the input cap switch. A .033uF or .05uF seem to work well for single coils, between .005uF and .001uF for humbuckers.

[alderbody]

i like my RM in my Master Volume twin, when i have the Vol at 10 and the master volume low.

this way it sounds juiciest!!!

i also tried my RM into my Fuzzface (both exact clones) and it sounds great with Humbuckers. I will soon reasemble my strats to find out how it sounds with them.

btw, the RM straight in the twin is very loud and trebly. It's that 68K thing and the whole voicing of these amps.

With tweeds, Marshals(=modded tweeds...), Vox's and similar it's "there"...

[petemoore]

I'm not so sure the 'simply put' I typed even really applies here.
 Gatey/farty, is definitely outside what 'voicing' changes can 'fix.
 I'm going with the input impedance mismatch - RG Explanation, after reading it, and the subsequent posts making me believe that Manelo's Rangemaster findings are what they are and best explained by that.
 Voicing can make some difference as far as how noticable gating is, more bass tends to push the notes through 'gates'...
 To me these descriptions of Rangmaster not being a good match [many say no, some say yes] for Fender Twins...and amps like them.
 I'm just typing and rambling, and retracting that "simply put' part.

[Mojah63]

There is a site out with gut shots but I can't remember the url

is this the one you're thing of?    http://www.acplink.com/

Yeah Thats the site.... I didn't have it bookmarked at work... Now I do...

Thanks Andyhank

[formerMember1]

my trannies are 0C44 and a japanese one. both from smalll bear.

[doug deeper]

hmmm...mark bolan used a RM in to a silverface fender (bandmaster reverb?)
with GREAT results!
wierd.

[Khas Evets]

If the problem is only the 68K resistor, then it would be easy enough to put a jumper around it and test it...anyone? I don't have a Fender.

I suspect it has something to do with the location of the EQ in the tone stack. Fender's have them between stages, whereas Marshall/Vox have them at the end. This is pure speculation.