psw's sustainer mania !!

[psw]

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 7:57 pm    Post subject: psw sustainer mania !!!    

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G'day there
a little introduction...

I've been working on building the "ultimate" sustainer for quite some time now...you can read the 40 or so pages at the Project Guitar site:
http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=7512

While I've got the thing working,it needs work on the circuitry to shrink and fine tune it...

Some of the members here will know of the project and contributed to it...however, if there's anyone out there who would like to lend a hand to this project, I'd love to hear from you...

Check it out and tell me if you're interested

pete

[Paul Marossy]

You stirring up trouble here, too,  psw?!  :wink:

I think some of the brains here can help you perfect your sustainer design.  

[space_ryerson]

I haven't read the whole 40 pages yet, but I do have a Floyd Rose sustainer that I had built custom about 7-8 years ago. Is there any info I can give you about it? I also have an ebow+, but it looks as if it is epoxied together, so I can't reverse engineer it easily.

[psw]

Well paul, it's getting down to the nitty gritty now and most of the audience back at PG are guitar builder's. I thought...since it was your suggestion, you know!...a few more brains makes a tastier soup!

The ebow, we've had some stuff on...it's basically an LM386 based circuit and a pickup and driver coil. Far easier to buy one than try and make it but it's do-able. The plus has the harmonic switch...basically that just reversese the coils wires...ie phase reversal...which, instead of driving the strings pitch, it trys to suppress it...what you get then are the higher order harmonics sustaining instead.

What I'm doing is to get a similar effect...along the lines of the Sustainiac and Fernandes systems but improve upon their deficiencies. My system surface mounts to the guitar, needs no special pickups and you can use any of the pickups. This has not been available before and is more difficult to achieve than it looks. My main contribution is to the driver design. I've had some fabulous support from people with patience and lately some excellent designers have come in with ideas for the enclosure.

What I need is a compact easily made opamp preamp. Currently my preamp takes up too much space. Teh poweramp section is LM386 based. There needs to be filtering as the highs easily oscillate and be easy on the power as the 9 volt is taking a beating trying to drive all six strings as it is!

Any takers for something with a fair amount of boost running into the LM386 thats compact?

psw - aka - pete

[Johnny G]

ah ha another PG member appears here. we're taking over gradually

just to actually add something to the thread, what circuit are you exactlly looking for psw?

i dont know whether you feel like putting a schem of your current circuit on here but if you can give all the info to help design it (eg, rough gain wanted, load to drive, at which frequencies the filtering is needed etc etc) then im pretty much certain that someone here will be able to help.

as for making the circuit smaller, there are a few guys here who are happy to play about with surface mounted soldering so that couyld well be an option.

JG

[Paul Marossy]

I haven't been keeping up on that thread - it's so massive now!

Anyhow, have y'all discussed using surface mount devices? That would definitely shrink things down...

[psw]

Well actually...I've started using some surface mount stuff already to replace some of the bulkier capacitors.

I don't want to put up exactly what I'm using but basically I've got a fairly generic LM386 poweramp section and I need a preamp with quite a bit up to say x50 gain. I get all kinds of siren effects and oscillations when I attempt to design preamps myself for this purpose (although I'm getting better at it). At the moment I'm thinking of keeping my present circuit and designing the drivers to that.

I've got a new post over at PG (page 42!!!) that outlines a potted history of the thread and where I'm at with these new drivers. There really need be no reason to read the early stuff. From about page 35 there are some cool pics of enclosures and circuit layouts though. PG also has an outline function which is great 'cause it's a virtual index...try it and see, very neat!

anyway, got to run

p

[Johnny G]

im the same as paul in that i havnt had a look at the sustainerthread over on PG for a while. just went throughit a moment ago lol and its cool that you're making good progress with it

i noticed thatyou said you were building the circuit on strip board and im wondering whether you a PCB would be better. if you do go down that route then itd probablly be worth playing about with ground planes etc for something like this. might dosomething to help cut down on the oscillations

an op-amp circuit with a gain of around 50 should be fairlly easy to do. my only thought is does the 9V supply give enough headroom.

no worries for not wanting to put a schem on here lol. obviouslly that would be a silly thing to do since this is all public domain but if you want some help with the design of the circuit then im happy to help as would a few others on here be im sure

[psw]

Carefull J.G. you'll be drawn into the sustainer team never to be the same again!

Seriously, I've tried all the obvious opamp solutions and so  far nothing has beat my 2 transistor modified kit preamp.

The problem with doing PCB's is that either you've got to make them by hand or, get them made. With the right circuit I'd even consider getting them made and put together in quantity but you'd want to be sure the thing works. Stripboard allows some movement for developing the thing though and to get it reasonably small. The intention would be to get everything on one small PCB, probably SMT and fully made up for a production run of say 50 at a time!!

Yes, 50, it's that good when it works!! I'm hoping to revolutionise the way guitar is played, I really do believe in this thing.

Now all you stompboxer's out there may be interested in my other theories. My device, like others uses electromagnitism to vibrate the string by a signal of itself...creating a (hopefully controlled) feedback loop.

Now, imagine if the signal that was driving the string was processed, the string would try to vibrate in line with the processed signal it was receiving. You would hear, not the effect but the way the string interpreted the processed signal.

For instance, I've tried it with a sweep flanger, the result is that the string sweeps through it's harmonic spectrum causing bird type noises.

A square wave becomes a more natural reedy sound as the string of course can't physically vibrate in a square, but it can try.

Also, as I'm using a separate driver for each string this becomes a psuedo hex-distortion and gives a pleasing rounded distortion.

What i'm getting at is this allow a whole new area to explore in terms of signal processing.

Also, as my system is on-board the guitar it opens up the whole area of onboard active electronics, a leap us conservative guitarists have trouble accepting, but this "effect" has to be implemented in this way. Once power is on board, all kinds of other on-board "effects" and switching systems are possible.

Anyway, I've sworn off going too far into this stufff as it was holding up progress on the core "product" so it's full steam ahead with the sustainer project for now...

cheers

psw

[MR COFFEE]

Hi PSW,

I wrote you a long post back at your thread at the Project Guitar forum. Hope it helps your project move along.

[Johnny G]

hey i dont mind getting sucked into this project. im on my gap year anddont go to university for about another 5 months, what the hell else am i going to kill my time with

[psw]

Well Mr.C has given me a bit of a kick but I cant seem to get these wav files up at the moment. Mr C if you're out there, I'll email 'em to you if you like.

I've just been for a bit of a search here on sustainers, ebows and the like.

My device is electromagnetic so it's always going to eat batteries a little. I'm trying to make the battery as accessable as possible and run off rechargables. I'd like to get it to work for as long as it takes to recharge a new one. That way you could just substitute one for another...well that's the idea.

Also, I've got some talented designers involved now and we're trying to make the concept of sticking the circuit and controls to the outside of the guitar palatable. I think a lot of people are coming around to the concept: Here's an example of my favorite design:

You've got to look at my sustainer project as a whole system. This requires no major surgery to the instrument, easy battery access, it's own self promotion (oops), and no change to the functionality of the guitar or it's set up.

You can see the driver in this example on the neck pickup ring. The device is small enough that it could actually be housed inside a pickup ring! All that is required is a direct feed (pre-controls) from the guitar and a line to the drivers. Now as a total concept it relies on a surface mount driver and thats where my driver comes in.

I feel that the fact that I can get infinite sustain at all is an achievement in itself having read of others DIY attempts. I tried all that ebow clone stuff and, I got to tell you, you get tired of winding coils pretty quick!!!

If Mr.C would like to sign a confidentiality agreement I'll reveal more (but not all) or I can put him in touch with someone who can verify my claims. As to tone...well one thing at a time but I don't think it really has an impact on the guitars tone until the device is turned on and not necessarily a bad one at that.

The real problem has been to be able to allow free selection of the guitar's pickups, something the other systems lack and is worth pursuing. Anyway, the more on board with the project the merrier but I doubt that this one will ever be for your out and out DIY guy.

psw

[Paul Marossy]

Is that the "final" version of how it's going to look? That has morphed quite a bit from the last pictures I saw...  

[psw]

Nothing is final paul...actually both me and Tim/onelastgoodbye the talented designer and artist of this pic, are trying to make it...or something like it.

What it does is give people a very good idea of what something like this could look like, and I was hoping that people would also appreciate the concept behind it.

The question is, what are your thoughts? Would you be prepared to have something like this attached to your guitar (it's equally at home on strats and floyds by the way)?

Emre/transient also put forward some other interesting designs which are equally valid. The dimensions of all of these are based on my present circuit configuration so they could get smaller or even more complex.

I can see the "concept" in an even broarder concept of on board electronics.

I think Mr.C missed the point a little on the artwork...now is the time to explore this part of the scheme. There's little point in a surface mounted driver if you have to route a great big hole in your axe to get this stuff inside!

well thats what i think, what do you say

psw

[Paul Marossy]

I personally would love to have a sustainer system that didn't require you to route your guitar, totally change all of your wiring, etc.!

I like the basic look of it, too. I know, nothing is final yet, I'm sure it will being going thru a lot of iterations...  :wink:

[psw]

Tim is rightfully very proud of this design and there are a lot more pics of it (various angles and guitars) on the thread, it's worth checking out. I was really impressed how he interpreted my ideas initially then incorporated them into something which is truely his own.

The main requirement was that the thing should look like it belongs there, not just some box stuck to the front. We also had to work with the circuit and battery dimensions that we have working now.

I'm was really impressed, this guy will go far in this field.

I was stunned to see it on a Les Paul as I wasn't sure it would work (initially designed for a floyd equiped Ibanez) but the things a classic. Shame we cant seem to work out how to get to the battery and the switches are a little close together!

Meanwhile, I've made some more progress with a new driver system and am hoping this will be the last one I have to do for a while...spent 12 hours straight on this today trying to crack that secret formula...I know it's out there, or in me or something! Let's hope for a breakthrough!

pete / psw

[space_ryerson]

wow, this is really impressive. sign me up for when you want to sell this thing!

[psw]

I have had a personal message from MR COFFEE in which I replyed with more explicit information as to what I'm doing...I hope that he will respect my work in this though I wasn't explicit and come on board as there is too much development in this quest for one person.

I really don't want to continually defend my work against assumptions. I will admit to being a little vague and even misleading at times but that's only to be expected. There are a lot of people interested in this stuff, almost 10,000 visits to my thread and over six hundred posts. I'm constantly being asked to give a schematic or such or provide information that I don't want to give.

I've even had claims that I am a hoax before, that I cant achieve what I have and that they "know what I'm up to". I really find it all a bit disturbing, there really is more to this thing than we know. If there weren't, why would people keep pursue it.

Most people have simply tried to duplicate ebows and such. My work seems to have been the only complete departure, yet many don't believe that anyone could do something different. It's only because I'm an electronic doofuss that I have had the courage to try something different with my drivers, and to reap the rewards, such that they are. All I ask is that this be respected.

I believe that my latest version, although needing a few comprimises has more advantages than not and will proceed with it to a full prototype. It's really nearly there. If anyone knows a way to put the sounds up, let me know cause i'm keen to show off the system.

After I complete this I'll take a well erned break from this stuff to get some perspective. You'll find me back at PG in the near future. It is a little disappointing that I come here on the suggestion of a member and I get a lot of negative comment. I know a lot of people have visited my thread since posting it on this forum and lurked around. Don't be too sceptical guys, I'm serious about the project and will get it to a reasonable, at least equal to current technology in the very near future, I'm sure

peace

pete / psw

[space_ryerson]

I'm not sure if you're replying to the post I made, but if so, I wasn't being sarcastic; I'm serious. When you get to the point of selling this, I want to buy one. I've read a chunk of your thread, and I wish I knew a way to help, but I'm just a beginner.

[psw]

Oh No not you my friend. I've been gettign some flack...suggesting that I've been faking to and various threats like the last one on PG and I'm just sick of it frankly. I will be aiming to sell such a device and you can help...

I'm very keen to get the opinions of people like yourself on some of the ideas on, not so much how it works, but what you want it to do and to look like. There's no point me gearing up to make a "product" to sell if no one will put something like this actually on their guitar. I'm convinced that for most people this is the way to go. I don't think people want to take a drill to their instrument nor will want to deal with the complex wiring or risk damage in installing a system.

The key though is acceptability, if the thing looks as good as this, people seem to want it more...if it was just some kind of black box, I don't think they'd be any takers at all!

I'm sorry if I caused any offence to anyone, I'm sure most of you are people of good faith and there's nothing sarcastic in a potential sale!

I'm heartened that your so impressed, have you seen the other pic's at PG?

psw