Perf vs. Breadboard

[ragtime8922]

Everyone has there own views and methods for things and I understand that but I am curious as to what you guys prefer for building/R&D. For me, only one way makes any sense at all:

BREADBOARD TEST RIG

I feel you are cheating yourself of precious time and therefore cheating the diy world of timely technological advancement. If you use perf for an easy way to finalize and box a project then that's understandable but to build and test with it is insane. (I know this is going to stir up some love/hate comments)

For those who perf because they aren't familiar with the breadboard test rig I'll briefly explain it:

      1.)Get a nice sized breadboard with buslines for ground and V+.

      2.)Get wood or a piece of sheetmetal from anything like and old VCR
          chassis and make a panel and mount it to one side of the bread-
          board.

      3.)Mount input jack, output jack, 3 pots, and maybe a switch or two
          on that panel along with a power input jack and/or battery
          terminal.



That's it! you can build, tweak and enjoy 3 projects in one day if you want to with this set up. Also, no soldering until a project meets your personal critera for completion. Then PCB makin' time.

I know this is going to get some perf-loyalists upset but I am truly trying to help.

Let the battle begin.............. :lol:

Oh wait, here's a link to an excellent example. Build it and you will love yourself for it.

http://www.diyguitarist.com/

It's under "DIY guitar effects" , second project down called "DIY Guitar Effects Prototyping Board"

He has some other cool test equipment on the site as well. The audio ocialtor would be especially useful.

[vanhansen]

My preference is breadboard for testing, then I perf when ready to put some use to it.  I've just recently started playing with my breadboard more and I really like it.  I wouldn't have been able to do my current project as fast as I did and do all the tweaks in one evening.  The longest part was making the alligator clip wires to hook everything up.

[smashinator]

Yep, I love my breadboard.  

Thus far all of my permanent builds have been on perf, because I don't have any of the tools or supplies to etch boards.

[ragtime8922]

Yep, I love my breadboard.  

Thus far all of my permanent builds have been on perf, because I don't have any of the tools or supplies to etch boards.

I think that's the biggest reason why guys don't PCB. Not having the supplies. But it is WAY easier then people think and once you do it I don't think you'll return to perf.

You need:

      1.)Copper clad board - get this from the same place (and price) that
          you get perf.

      2.)Press-N-Peel Blue and any black sharpie for touch ups - Smallbear
          has these for $2.00 per sheet.

      3.)Etchant - Ferric Chloride at any Radio Shack or Smallbear.

I thnk guys feel that it's a big messy process when they think of using chemicals but it is super easy and the etchant is reusable. It takes 20 minutes to etch a board and 4 minutes more for the Press-n-Peel before etching.

[smashinator]

Actually, it's because I don't have a dremel and drill press attachement  or a regular old drill press.  That's what's REALLY stopping me.  Otherwise I'd be etching boards right now, instead of chatting on the forum.   :lol:

I've got a hand drill, but it sounds to me like that wouldn't cut it.

[ezanker]

I breadboard all my builds first and then decide if I want it more permanent.

I too have only perfed my permanent builds.  Other than the reasons already mentioned, I'm only building each effect once and don't really need the repeatability of a PCB.  If I were going into production of effects, I would definitely get into PCBs.

[KORGULL]

Actually, it's because I don't have a dremel and drill press attachement or a regular old drill press. That's what's REALLY stopping me. Otherwise I'd be etching boards right now, instead of chatting on the forum.  

I use a hand-held mini drill from //www.sciplus.com -only cost $14.95. I drilled a few boards with it so far and had no problems. #91315

I mostly build with perf and only make PCBs for the more complicated circuits. I like to breadboard everything first too.

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

My personal problem with breadboards is, I'm clumsy & knock wires out, knock the board on the floor etc.
Sure it takes a bit longer to solder on stripboard.. but, when it works, you actually have a permanently working unit! and no worrying about whether tarnished legs or reamed out holes in the breadboard are giving intermittents.
I know I'm in a small minority on this, but (like many things) it isn't a case of one approach being best for everyone.
As for those guys who actually box up a breadboard.. words (for once!) fail me :lol:

[darkseid]

I'm almost done with my breadboard box.....   soon I will breadboard everything first.  

[gaussmarkov]

I use a hand-held mini drill from www.sciplus.com -only cost $14.95. I drilled a few boards with it so far and had no problems. #91315

I really appreciate this thread.  I have been thinking about getting a breadboard--now I'm convinced I will like it.  I also didn't think I would ever do anything but perf.  But that little drill could remove an obstacle.  Thanks, KORGULL!  

[chrishopkins]

I'm embarking on my first project - yet another Fuzzface so I've ordered myself a breadboard from Rapid as well as the components.

I might start keeping a blog to record my progress.

[RJ]

I always start every project on a breadboard...I think it's great for developing and tweaking ideas and builds.  Once it's perfect (or as close as I'm gonna get it),  I build it using stripboard.  I call the stuff stripboard but that might not be the right term...it's like perfboard but instead of a copper pad per hole, the copper pads are arranged the same as a breadboard.

So I just build the effect from my breadboard onto the stripboard and when I'm done it looks the same as I'm used to.....makes it really easy for troubleshooting or tweaking.  

I want to try making pcbs though...I'm guilty of thinking it's harder or more complicated than maybe it is, so thanks ragtime8922 for posting that list of exactly what's needed....doesn't sound too bad!

-Ryan

[funkiness]

Hmmm... personally I prefer tortillaboard.

[nelson]

Yep, I love my breadboard.  

Thus far all of my permanent builds have been on perf, because I don't have any of the tools or supplies to etch boards.

I think that's the biggest reason why guys don't PCB. Not having the supplies. But it is WAY easier then people think and once you do it I don't think you'll return to perf.

You need:

      1.)Copper clad board - get this from the same place (and price) that
          you get perf.

      2.)Press-N-Peel Blue and any black sharpie for touch ups - Smallbear
          has these for $2.00 per sheet.

      3.)Etchant - Ferric Chloride at any Radio Shack or Smallbear.

I thnk guys feel that it's a big messy process when they think of using chemicals but it is super easy and the etchant is reusable. It takes 20 minutes to etch a board and 4 minutes more for the Press-n-Peel before etching.

Takes me 4-5mins to etch the board, I use a large "tupperware" box full of just under boiling water and a smaller "tupperware" box floating in the larger one with some ferric chloride in it. This method speeds the etching process up hugely using heat and I get perfect results this way.
O yeah, dont forget to occassionaly "circulate" the etchant.

[ragtime8922]

I'm almost done with my breadboard box.....   soon I will breadboard everything first.  

That's a cool setup hut I think you may run in to trouble with that small breadboard. The big ones at Jemeco are well worth the investment. Also, the bus lines that allow for both + and - connections at either the top or bottom (and side on some boards) comes in handy. Plus the extra space is useful. I sometimes build 3 tone stacks on the board and just change 2 connections with my hemostats/needle nose to sub in different stacks.

http://www.jameco.com/Jameco/catalogs/c252/P242.pdf

I have the 20790CH but I am buying the individual ones to make my own on system on a peice of wood.

I also use the extra space to have say each section of an overdrive/distortion done in a big area with a ton of space between stages to mod/reseach and develop. Just some thoughts.

[ragtime8922]

I use a hand-held mini drill from www.sciplus.com -only cost $14.95. I drilled a few boards with it so far and had no problems. #91315

I really appreciate this thread.  I have been thinking about getting a breadboard--now I'm convinced I will like it.  I also didn't think I would ever do anything but perf.  But that little drill could remove an obstacle.  Thanks, KORGULL!  

Also, they now sell hand drills at Radio Shack that are half the size of a pen but a little thicker. Then, when you get a dremel you can use the bits that come with the hand drill in the dremel. The hand drill comes with like 20 bits or so.

[ragtime8922]

Nelson wrote:

Takes me 4-5mins to etch the board, I use a large "tupperware" box full of just under boiling water and a smaller "tupperware" box floating in the larger one with some ferric chloride in it. This method speeds the etching process up hugely using heat and I get perfect results this way.
O yeah, dont forget to occassionaly "circulate" the etchant.

That is a great way to save time. I've done it with warm water but not quite "just under boliling" but it must work really well if you are etching boards in 5 minutes!
Agitation is another speed saver. I read about a guy that used an aquarium pump to keep his etchant "moving".

[ragtime8922]

My personal problem with breadboards is, I'm clumsy & knock wires out, knock the board on the floor etc.
Sure it takes a bit longer to solder on stripboard.. but, when it works, you actually have a permanently working unit! and no worrying about whether tarnished legs or reamed out holes in the breadboard are giving intermittents.
I know I'm in a small minority on this, but (like many things) it isn't a case of one approach being best for everyone.
As for those guys who actually box up a breadboard.. words (for once!) fail me :lol:

He makes a comment that I, only recently, became familiar with.
I bought a small Radio Shack breadboard to have as an auxilary board. I have NEVER had a "reamed hole" or "intermittent" problem with my breadboard rig but it is a Jameco. The Radio Shack board gave me those problems after just 10 uses! So GET A GOOD BREADBOARD

This is not where you want to get the bargain discount brand. I've used larger than recomended wire gauges (you shouldn't do this) on a number of occasions with the Jameco and it never reamed out. It tightens back down. Also, the Radio Shack board is real hard to push in to at first but then after you get it in it becomes loose...permanantly! They are just like those cheap op-amp sockets vs. the Mil-Max gold low profiles.

[DiyFreaque]

Ragtime speaks the truth.  I'm somewhat of a connesiour of breadboards, I own something like 14 of them, and they're always full.  The Jameco breadboards outclass all of the others I've ever used by leaps and bounds, for the reasons Ragtime lists.  

Some breadboards make it so much of a pain to insert parts, it becomes part of the reason the circuit stays there a long time.  IMO, the Velleman boards (at least the one I have) suck the absolute worst.  Try to stick an average resistor in there and the #$%!! lead bends and curls around, and you have to grab the needle nose and then it just leads to more shouts of "#$% breadboard!!".  Man, I especially hate inserting Vactrol legs into that thing.  In the time I spend futzing with one silly resistor on this board, I could have half the circuit built on a Jameco.  You'd think this translates to 'better grip, longer lasting' but I have yet to experience any problems with the Jamecos, and they've seen many a circuit pass their domains.  They're a joy to use, especially if you get one with lots of common busses down the sides and across the top.

This is the one I'm talking about:

http://mypeoplepc.com/members/scottnoanh/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/dc2bb_r.jpg
Cheers,
Scott

[KORGULL]

Just wanted to remind any first time (free-hand) PCB drillers out there to make sure every pad either has a tiny spot in the center where the copper is etched away or else make a dimple with a center punch or awl, so the drill bit does not "walk" off the pad. Also steel bits are less likely to break than carbide if you apply uneven/sideways pressure.
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I just upgraded to a large 3220 point breadboard from All Electronics and I'm loving it. My old one was the "deluxe" Radio Shack model. It has something like 830 tie points and cost as much as my new one :roll:
I have 3 boards now and it really is nice to be able to work on a couple projects simultaneously.
One of the best breadboard deals I've come across is from this place //www.mpja.com stock#4447-TE this is their largest one - 3220 tie points 4 binding posts and comes with a jumper wire kit included $22.95.
Their smallest one is the same size as my Radio Shack board but at $9.95 is half the price, comes with the jumper wire kit too.