OT - This month's GP Mag - Workhorse Amps ad

[CS Jones]

Does this mean you're gonna pretend like you don't know us anymore?


Come to Papa, little Pony.

That's the one I'm getting when they come out.

It looks like that'll be the one my knees can handle.

[jrc4558]

Absolutely! I love clean amps! Way to go RG!!!

[phaeton]

Hey! we saw these on musicplayer.com i think 4 months ago!  I didn't know it was R.G. and Weil!

Since Reverend got out of the amp biz, maybe these will step up to take the slack?

Say... where's the pic of R.G. on visualsound.net?

[cd]

ROTFLMAO at "carbon comp resistors where they make a difference"   Should include a free link to the mojo thread

[KORGULL]

I saw that ad too - when are we gonna be able to get our hands on these things?
...I'm champing at the bit here. 

[The Tone God]

Anyone got a schematic ? :::ducks:::

Andrew

[bass_econo]

So how much are these going to cost?

[CS Jones]

(In my best Schwarzenegger voice)

"Kum heuh lee-tul pony...

I wunt to mount choo."

[R.G.]

Does this mean you're gonna pretend like you don't know us anymore?

No, I remember quite clearly where I came from.

What's making me nuts right now is GETTING THE BLASTED THINGS SHIPPED!!!

The design's been done for a long time. We're still trying to get a container filled with amps out to dealers. Now I know why the manufacturing support engineers in my former life always had gray hair - even the young ones - and had this vacant look in their eyes. It wasn't because they were slow. It was because they were shell shocked.

Say... where's the pic of R.G. on visualsound.net?

I nixed that. No reason to run off customers unnecesarily. However, I'll append one for you at the end of this sentence. Here: 

ROTFLMAO at "carbon comp resistors where they make a difference"  Should include a free link to the mojo thread

Actually that one is dead serious. It's right out of the carbon comp resistor article at GEO. There are a few places where you can actually hear carbon comps, because of the signal level and their voltage coefficient of resistance. Other places it's just hiss. We used low noise where it made sense, and carbon comps for those people who can hear them.

Anyone got a schematic ?

You'd be disappointed. There're no epoxy-covered secret circuits in there. It's all just the stuff I say all the time - make it solid, make it reliable, reinforce the obvious failure points.  The audio path is a plain-as-dirt tube amp, deliberately harnessed (sorry...) down in gain so that most of the volume control rotation gives you clean but loud. The coloration is from the tubes and it's not clipping. You can get into a bit of tube crunch at the top end of the pot range.

What makes it hard to duplicate is the stuff that's not flashy. The chassis is 18 gauge steel. The main PCB (yep, it's on a PCB) is double the normal board thickness, and the copper on it is triple the normal thickness. The board is stiffened with steel stiffening ribs. No point on it is more than about an inch and a half from either a mounting screw or a leg of the stiffener. The controls, jacks, etc. are mounted on the chassis and connected to the PCB by wires. You can access the entire circuit board, all components, by pulling off the back panel. You don't even have to pull the chassis out of the cabinet to track down problems. If you do have to remove a component from the PCB, you don't have to remove the board from the chassis. You remove the back plate that covers the entire solder side of the PCB; there is no component lead that can't be reached with the PCB still in the chassis. Which is good, because the PCB is held in the chassis with sixteen mounting screws. The cabinet is hardwood plywood, finger jointed together, and the baffle board is glued into a groove in the top, bottom and sides. It's as solid as I could make it, not as tricky as I could make it.

Any tricks were spent on reliability. This is the only production amp I know of where a shorted tube heater will not burn out your power transformer. The filament winding is fused. So is the high voltage winding, the bias winding, and the low voltage winding. The fuses stop the damage from taking out the power transformer, which is the single most expensive thing in the amp to repair. The high voltage and the heaters are soft started so there is less stress on the transformers, capacitors, and tubes.

Mother Nature being the ... er... lady that we know her to be, I'm sure there's stuff She's taught me that I just missed. But I tried to get them all in there. We had a saying in my former life - "Mother Nature waits for you at the end of the assembly line."

So how much are these going to cost?

I can't tell you that now. But they will be quite reasonable as amps go these days. They're intended for working musicians, and boutique amp prices are - IMHO - out of touch with working musicians.

[Processaurus]

I don't know if this was answered in another thread, but I was curious how much each one weighs?  A concern the working musician would have...  also does the 2x12 have casters?

[The Tone God]

I was kidding but I'm sure you understand that.

Alot of things you have mentioned I have already learned, albeit the hard way, which have be applied to some of my designs and of course I have come up some ideas of my own. I'm sure some of them will make an appearance in a future product that I will release...eventually. It would be interesting to compare notes but we will save that for another time.

I especially like the built in 9v supply.

Is there any chance of getting a gut of the amp to understand better how one could access the internals without taking the chassis out ? No need to see part values.

Andrew

P.S. Glad to see you getting into the biz you always wanted too.

[Mark Hammer]

I don't know about the rest of you, but whenever I see an ad or review that involves one of the folks here, I always get a warm feeling.

There is a Yiddish term: nachus (the "ch" is pronounced like the Scottish "ch" in "Loch Ness", a back of the throat sound).  "Nachus" is the noun, and "shep" is the verb - one "sheps nachus".  It generally describes the feeling of pride and contentment one derives from the accomplishments, personal and professional, of family or close friends.  Your kid graduates at the top of their class - nachus.  Your cousin is the mayor - nachus.  The family meets for a special occasion and you see all the beautiful wonderful grandchildren in one place at the same time and realize what a miracle that is - nachus.

Maybe it's just me but when Steve Daniels reflects on yet another successful year for Small Bear - a source/service that some of us here have watched "grow up" since it was a baby and a hobby - I shep nachus.  When I open a copy of Vintage Guitar and I see one of Ton's pedals gleaming in a tabloid-sized full-pade color ad - I shep nachus.  When I pop over to the Mod-Can site and see an outstanding synth module by Mike "Vsat" Irwin - I shep nachus.  When Zachary Vex comes up with another feat of miniaturization (and Jason Myrold decorates it with inspiration), and it's picture shows up in a review with glowing words from the reviewer - I shep nachus.  When I stumble onto an old article by Jack Orman or Stephen Giles, I shep nachus.  When I see the array of things Paul Perry has provided - I shep nachus.  Heck, when I see how well Robert Keeley and Wampcat are doing, I squeeze a little out too. 

The list could go on and on, but the basic principle remains the same: when people cooperate with each other, and care, as visibly as they do here so often, one can't help but feel a sense of satisfaction in their accomplishments, as if they were family.

So, R.G., good long-time buddy,  I was positively "kvelling" (glowing) when I was flipping through GP the other night, saw the ad for the Workhorse, and saw your name mentioned as if it mattered, like a credential, like the degree after a person's name, like a symbol of quality.  It may have been cold on the walk from the car to the store, but it was a little warmer on the walk from the store back to the car.

[WGTP]

We feel the same way about you Mark

What Celestion Speakers are being used?  Any insight into the selection process?  The Century is light weight 3.5lb.s ? (for us Knee issue folks) loud (neodymnium magnet) and expensive.   

[phaeton]

I nixed that. No reason to run off customers unnecesarily. However, I'll append one for you at the end of this sentence. Here:  icon_biggrin

Bah... that's cheating 

R.G., may I repeat your description of the reliability aspects in the Guitar Player forum over at Musicplayer.com?  There is an amp tech over there (Myles Rose) that i think would appreciate it.  In addition, the place is crawling with guitarists with serious G.A.S.*  I think a good majority of them might perk up on that too.

One suggestion I may have though- the 'hubcap' deflector is kind of neat in itself, but an optional 'annodized flat black' or one less 'flashy' might go over with some folks a little better.  I would also vote for a checkered lightblue/darkblue striping instead of orange, but I'm going to STFU right now.



*G.A.S. == Gear Acquisition Syndrome

[vanhansen]

I cannot wait to try one of these. R.G., thanks for sharing the construction method.  Now I really want one.

Mark, I know what you mean about the warm feeling.  When I saw the Flanger Hoax at the guitar show last weekend I got like that because I knew who designed it and the origins of it.  It's a neat feeling really.  Seeing R.G.'s name on that ad does the same for me too because I consider him a mentor of mine in this DIY venture, even though I've been doing this for a year.

[CS Jones]

Weight is a real issue with me. One bad knee over the last 5 years has made for 2 bad knees. I've shed several valuable vintage pieces over this last year for that reason alone. I have never owned a booteek amp (never will). While the weight of the neo is enticing I wouldn't use that speaker. Just a matter of taste. About the only things I really fuss over in the whole gear myriad is pick guage, pickups and speakers. I just can't "get my groove on" if one of these isn't right (assuming I'm playing into a clean amp with any decent piece of wood).
It's interesting to me how much I can struggle sometimes if the pick guage isn't right... anyway, over the summer, while waiting for the Pony to come out, I got the chance to play through several low watters and found a few surprises. Found the Crate V1512 (EL84s) to be a keeper. The low watt Peavey el84 amps were not bad at all either, as long as you didn't push them too hard. I'm looking forward to using the Pony in a split with the V1512. Mic in front of both. If the clean on the Pony is as good as I'm hoping it'll be my main amp for sit-down jazz gigs.

[Mark Hammer]

My own knees are...okay...and it has been decades since I gigged.  So, a question to those of you *human* workhorses:  How much of a difference do casters/wheels make on an amp?  Or is it the case that they would be quite useful if only the universe was chock full of ramps?

[analogmike]

The controls, jacks, etc. are mounted on the chassis and connected to the PCB by wires. You can access the entire circuit board, all components, by pulling off the back panel. You don't even have to pull the chassis out of the cabinet to track down problems. If you do have to remove a component from the PCB, you don't have to remove the board from the chassis. You remove the back plate that covers the entire solder side of the PCB; there is no component lead that can't be reached with the PCB still in the chassis. Which is good, because the PCB is held in the chassis with sixteen mounting screws.

Awesome!!!!

Almost all mass produced amps (and pedals) are so poorly laid out and built that they are practically disposeable. This looks like an amp that we could actually repair if a customer brought it in, maybe even more easily than the vintage point to point amps which were the only ones we'd consider working on in the past.

Good job and hope they work out!!! (getting even simple electronics made to your correct specs overseas is VERY VERY hard, I know from experience).

[R.G.]

Weight issues:
Sorry - they're fairly heavy for their size. We worried over this issue for a long time. We even considered making a built-in or -on handle arrangement like the little rolling airline bags. Eventually we came down on the side of make it tough, even if it's heavier. Likewise, we interviewed a lot of speakers, and chose for sound, not weight. The speakers are Celestion Seventy 80's, which are incredibly well suited to moderate sized combo amps, at least to my ears. The Neos are a bit bass deficient to me at least. 

However, the speakers are screw into place with M6 machine bolts mating with Tee nuts set into the front of the amp. You can remove the speaker for replacement with no fear of butchering up the mounting studs, or of puncturing the speaker cone on mounting studs - or both. I ... um.. have some experience with that and wasn't going to see it happen again.

Weight is a real issue with me. One bad knee over the last 5 years has made for 2 bad knees.

As the proud owner of a herniated disk in my neck, a relic of my wrestling days, I sympathize. I've had a revelation in the last few years when I broke down and bought a couple of foldable hand trucks. It makes all the difference. My first was a Harbor Freight "bigfoot" one for moving some furniture. A quick $25 and I didn't spend the evening on a heating pad. The second was a foldup model in aluminum. They're great.

If the clean on the Pony is as good as I'm hoping it'll be my main amp for sit-down jazz gigs.

We had several jazz players try it at summer NAMM, and they really liked it. It's not hifi clean - you still clearly hear that the sound is coming out of tubes. But your ears are the real test.

R.G., may I repeat your description of the reliability aspects in the Guitar Player forum over at Musicplayer.com?  There is an amp tech over there (Myles Rose) that i think would appreciate it.  In addition, the place is crawling with guitarists with serious G.A.S.*  I think a good majority of them might perk up on that too.

You may, but tread lightly. I'm proud of the new babies - if I can ever get the boatload of them here! - but I don't want to step on toes by spouting off about them everywhere like I've seen some boutiquers do. If he's interested, have Myles write to me. He may like that I put together a service technician's book for the amps, and we're looking into getting service photos and literature put into CDs for techs.  I'd be interested in his opinions about what techs need for easy, fast service.

What Celestion Speakers are being used?  Any insight into the selection process?

As mentioned, there're Seventy 80's. I've seen some postings from people who really don't like these, but to my ear, and several others, they're killer.

The selection process was simple. Take every 12" speaker you can get your hands on that is in current manufacture. That is a large number! Listen to them to construct a short list of candidates. Put each candidate in the box and have a number of players listen to and evaluate the speakers on tone, without knowng what speaker they're listening to. Take those opinions, weight them by how much you respect the player's ears, and salt heavily with your own opinion. It's interesting. Some quite expensive speakers were just not at all competitive on this basis, perhaps because of some tonal peculiarity that appeals to a few people. Validate the choice with reviews by previously uninvolved players.

These are not the perfect speaker - as that does not exist - but they're very nice. I'm an AC30 fan myself, and the tone of these is quite pleasing in comparison to a vintage AC30 with silver celestions. Not the same, but by no means an inferior to my ear.

One suggestion I may have though- the 'hubcap' deflector is kind of neat in itself, but an optional 'annodized flat black' or one less 'flashy' might go over with some folks a little better.  I would also vote for a checkered lightblue/darkblue striping instead of orange, but I'm going to STFU right now.

Yeah, we get two opinions about those: "Kewl! I love them!" and "Ugh! Did you have to put those silver things on there?". I started in the second camp, and have gradually worked my way into the first one. They do a great job of spreading treble out, so whatever color they are, they work. The silver is painted onto high strength plasic, so one could spray them a tidy semi-flat charcoal if one wanted to. They remove from the front with no interaction with the speaker mounting screws at all, so you can pop them off and customize them easily if you like.

As a side light, independence of features was something I worked for. I once had to replace the heater blower motor on a Volvo sedan. This is one of those automotive fixit tasks where you start by removing the rear bumper and taillights, and work your way forward dismantling the entire car to get to the motor so you can remove the three screws that hold the blower in and replace it. Then you get to rebuild the car around the replacement. I hate jobs like that.

So, R.G., good long-time buddy,  I was positively "kvelling" (glowing) when I was flipping through GP the other night, saw the ad for the Workhorse, and saw your name mentioned as if it mattered, like a credential, like the degree after a person's name, like a symbol of quality.  It may have been cold on the walk from the car to the store, but it was a little warmer on the walk from the store back to the car.

Coming from you, Mark, that matters. Thank you.

I was kidding but I'm sure you understand that.

I did!

Is there any chance of getting a gut of the amp to understand better how one could access the internals without taking the chassis out ? No need to see part values.

Because we're trying to get the things into the market, I'll have to clear that with the guys responsible for the public announcement stuff.  But I can describe it.

The chassis is about 7" high and 2" deep, and as wide as the interior of the cabinet. It mounts at the back-top of the cabinet, 2" side up/down and 7" side to the back/front. The chassis is an open "C", with the open side to the back of the amp. The open side is covered by a rear panel. The top side of the chassis has the controls mounted on it; the tubes hang down from the bottom of the chassis just inside the rear cover. The main PCB is about 6" high and 16" wide, and mounts on the closed side of the chassis, solder side down. So when you open the chassis, you see the entirety of the main PCB from the top/component side. The tubes are mounted on a second PCB with solder side up and the bottom of the chassis, so you can probe all of the tube pins there with the back cover off.  So by removing the back cover, you can probe all of the power supply, audio, support circuits and tubes without removing the chassis from the cabinet. The controls, jacks, switches, etc. are mounted to the chassis top or bottom side on lead wires, so you can, for instance, replace a volume control by unsoldering the wires from the control (they're on the open side...), then replace the pot, and resolder the wires. That can be done with the PCB in the chassis and the chassis in the cabinet, only the rear panel off.

One of the gripes we collected when we were asking techs about what they didn't like about service was that they hated having to do one of those Volvo-blower-motor things to replace a resistor on a PCB. Pulling off the knobs and bushing nuts off sixteen controls and jacks to get the main PCB out of an amp is not cool. So we cut an opening in the flat back of the chassis which allows access to the entire solder side of the PCB by removing six screws to remove the access panel. You do have to remove the chassis from the enclosure to remove the access panel, but the main PCB never has to come out of the chassis to get to any terminal of any soldered-in part.

[tiges_ tendres]

my question would be if it is 100% clean, how well would it react to an LPB or a rangemaster?

will the amp get pushed into "natural drive" territory? or would we just hear the frequency response that is associated with those pedals?

and price, does anybody have any clue of the msrp?

also, is it spring reverb?