Yet another TS-808 thread

[Cliff Schecht]

So Pushtone, you were saying you had some questions, well here's answers and a pic .

For the board, I used the Tonepad layout, his layouts seem to be some of the best around. He always sets the pot at even distances at the front of the board (allowing for mounting by the pots) and almost never uses jumpers. Plus the layouts are always very tidy and easy to work with (with the exception of 1uF poly caps, which suck anyways... I can never find a good size and I don't want to place a Mouser order).

Here's a pic of my build:


Here are the mods I did (again, thanks Marty!):
Made one of the diode pair a 1N4002
Did the "more/less" gain mod, .047 and 4k7 off drive to .1 and 2k2 51k to a 22k
also used a 1M log drive pot.
0.22 Tant cap before the tone pot ( goes to 4.5v ) down to a 0.1 poly and tone cap
from wiper to a 0.22 poly also.
Input cap 0.047 and output cap from a 10uf to a 1uf poly

I ended up using a 1n4001 for one of the diodes in the pair (instead of the 4002, same forward voltage drop so w/e) and used the 1uF tantalum on the output (it's the one that's right by the red wire with the black heatshrink). You can see the other two 1uF caps I used I had to basically make fit by ripping off the leads from the big brick ones I have (they come right off) and soldering on some stronger leads. I use these because I'm yet to find a better cap for the job (although I know they are available from Mouser or Digikey). I get all of my parts from surplus stores for real cheap which really helps me keep project costs down, but you can't always find the exact part. All of the parts I used are the correct value (finally, I'm tired of bullshitting weird resistors) and honestly this is the best sounding TS I've built, and I've built quite a few. I also stuck in 2n5089's hoping for a bit less noise and so far I like how everything sounds, although I don't think the tranny change made much of a difference.

The tone and drive controls are much more versatile and the overall tone of the circuit is much more usable, whereas other TS's I've built seemed somewhat confined in the sounds available. I've done a few of these mods before, but collectively I think this is the best, or something close to that, that I've built yet. It even sounds good as a bass fuzz  . It'll get that famous SRV sting (with a good set of hands, of course), but this thing is by no means a one trick pony, I can even get a good "metal" tone by pushing my little 5 watt tube amp hard as piss with the TS, but backing it off takes it down to a great blues tone and down on to a good sounding clean. It's hard to describe, but I'm just trying to give a hint of how versatile this build is.

I use active pickups in all of my main guitars (well, I use preamps in the passive ones) and always have either the Crank or the TS on, so both of these are going in the same box, but I get the feeling I'll be using this TS a lot more than my last one, which always seems to be a bit brittle and never gets me the tone I want.

So if you still have questions, ask away.

[Cliff Schecht]

And the chip is an RC4558. How could I forget the most important part of a TS circuit .

[jonathan perez]

what are those big square caps?

[Cliff Schecht]

Those are the 1uF poly ones I was talking about, I've never seen anything like them outside of M.C. Howards (the surplus place I shop at). I'm sure R.G. and a few of the other Austinites here's have come across them a few times at Howards . I think they are just uncoated versions of some other 1uF caps I have, they were in the same bag but had a coating.

I've found the leads on them to be weak and easy to break, but they rip right off and the ends allow you to solder some real leads on the end in whatever configuration you need. I've never had one of these fail, they just don't look as pretty as the production caps found on the big electronics websites.

[jonathan perez]

seriously, those look GREAT...

they wouldnt happen to have any .01, would they? 

[Cliff Schecht]

I've got some .47uF in the same style, but I've never seen any other values. I've got all sorts of .01 uF shapes, anything you looking for in particular?

[Pushtone]

Thanks for laying it all down for me Cliff.
I'm at square one with mine, and can't decide if I should build another or mod the heck out of the one I finished.


I built the GGG layout (looks like the TP one has nod there) with Keely mods and I think it sounds really good.
Hiss is not too bad, could be better.

It loves to be driven by another preamp. I've tried my MosFET, CreamPie, Sparkle, Fetzer all with good result.
I perfer the MosFET and Fetzer in font on it.

It seems to me that the sound is a 50/50 mixture of the clean and clipped sound.
I swear I can hear the clean note mixed in with the distortion.
Sounds nice on chords. Is this a TS trademark sound?

I've got my clipping diodes off-board so I will try Marty's mods there. Gee I only have a 4007?
I can see how one could burn a lot of time on just clipping diode experiments.
Now I understand the Clipping Box project posted the other day and the one at www.beavisaudio.com too.

Here's the GGG layout PCB




Here's what I used
Pair a 1N914 clippers on one side of a DPDT toggle, red LEDs on the other side.
Another toggle to add the asymmetrical diode. When I had this on the breadboard
I though I could hear a difference when kicking in the asymmetrical diode, so I made it a toggle control.
But now, flipping the switch does nothing for the sound. I replaced the diode, another 914, but still no change.

I guess I heard something that wasn't there. I plan to swap out the asymmetrical diode for a red LED.
If that doesn't yield another tone then I will make it the FAT switch instead.


I did the "more/less" gain mod too,
In GGG layout reference:
C3 .047 and R6 4k7 changed to .1uF and 2k2

R7 51k changed to 20k ( I used two 10K)

C9 0.22 Tant cap changed to a 0.1 poly cap. I socket-ed this and tried 0.1uF and 0.22uF with no noticeable difference.

My input cap is 0.022uF.

My output cap is the stock 10uf electrolytic. I'd like to change that to poly, but their HUGE!




Question:
What is the 1M log drive pot suppose to do for ya?

This control on mine has a nice sweep with the 500k pot.

The TONE control however has lots of tone crammed into the last 1/8th.

Thanks again Cliff. It may be considered passe by more experience builders but I'm having fun.
Never had a TS before. It sounds great.

[Cliff Schecht]

Thanks for laying it all down for me Cliff.
I'm at square one with mine, and can't decide if I should build another or mod the heck out of the one I finished.

I was at the same dilemma, so I decided to just build this one with Marty's mods. I did his BD-2 mods and loved them.

I built the GGG layout (looks like the TP one has nod there) with Keely mods and I think it sounds really good.
Hiss is not too bad, could be better.

I've built the GGG layout as well, only reason I don't use his layouts anymore is because I can never get the image scaled perfectly the first time, which kills a lot of time for me. FP's layouts always do the job, even though they tend to be really compact.

Hiss didn't improve much for me when I switched from 3904's to 5089's, but it seemed to clean up the sound a touch. I think I'm leaving them in there.

It loves to be driven by another preamp. I've tried my MosFET, CreamPie, Sparkle, Fetzer all with good result.
I perfer the MosFET and Fetzer in font on it.

Yeah I was pushing the TS into easy metal territory using a Crank in front of it. I guess I can see why Ibanez tries to get so much mileage out of the TS design, it's pretty robust.

It seems to me that the sound is a 50/50 mixture of the clean and clipped sound.
I swear I can hear the clean note mixed in with the distortion.
Sounds nice on chords. Is this a TS trademark sound?

It's just the way the TS distorts, it allows your guitars natural voice to come through while giving everything some grit. As you start cranking the gain pot and playing, it starts to clip harder (duh!), I guess giving off the "illusion" of a mixed clean and distorted tone. While that isn't physically happening, I do know what you are talking about, I love using the TS for chording and fatter sounding rhythm parts. I'm also the most pleased with the distortion my TS gives out now than I've ever been before, so cranking the gain and playing a solo sounds great as well.

I've got my clipping diodes off-board so I will try Marty's mods there. Gee I only have a 4007?
I can see how one could burn a lot of time on just clipping diode experiments.
Now I understand the Clipping Box project posted the other day and the one at www.beavisaudio.com too.

That 1N4007 will work, you are looking for a forward voltage drop of 1.1V. The 1n4001-4007 all have the same FVD, they just differ in the amount of reverse voltage they can take before blowing (yours is the highest rated at 1000V ).

Here's what I used
Pair a 1N914 clippers on one side of a DPDT toggle, red LEDs on the other side.
Another toggle to add the asymmetrical diode. When I had this on the breadboard
I though I could hear a difference when kicking in the asymmetrical diode, so I made it a toggle control.
But now, flipping the switch does nothing for the sound. I replaced the diode, another 914, but still no change.

The differences are there, but they are quite subtle. Adding that assymetrical clipping diode is going to emphasize more odd order harmonics and should give a slightly different flavor of distortion, but that depends on what you are throwing in the mix. The original TS circuit used symetrical clipping, so change one of the two in that pair to that 1n4007 and leave the other at a 914 (I use 4148's, same difference). I'm not sure how much of a difference the third diode makes, but I'm about to add a switch to mine to find out. I'll get back to you on this, I'm curious myself now .

I guess I heard something that wasn't there. I plan to swap out the asymmetrical diode for a red LED.
If that doesn't yield another tone then I will make it the FAT switch instead.

From what I've gathered, most people like the assym. diode as a 914, but it never hurts to play around.

I did the "more/less" gain mod too,
In GGG layout reference:
C3 .047 and R6 4k7 changed to .1uF and 2k2

R7 51k changed to 20k ( I used two 10K)

C9 0.22 Tant cap changed to a 0.1 poly cap. I socket-ed this and tried 0.1uF and 0.22uF with no noticeable difference.

My input cap is 0.022uF.

My output cap is the stock 10uf electrolytic. I'd like to change that to poly, but their HUGE!

changing from .1uF to .22uF shouldn't yield a huge difference, so no worries there. Try changing that output cap and see if you can tell any difference, I'm not so sure I want to hack too much on this build (I always do and end up going to far and making a huge mess out of my boards). I was going to try a 1uF poly here, but I'm doubting it will make much of a difference anyways. You have to remember that we aren't dealing with a perfectly clean signal anyways and let's be honest, guitar amps are the most hi-fi pieces of equipment out there.

Question:
What is the 1M log drive pot suppose to do for ya?

This control on mine has a nice sweep with the 500k pot.

It allows for more gain to be had while allowing the effect to be just as subtle as before when turned down(marketing anybody?).

The TONE control however has lots of tone crammed into the last 1/8th.

Seriously, I have the same problem on every TS, I'm not sure if I'm using the wrong taper or what. I know that the original TS808 calls for a 20k pot (which I made using a resistor in parallel with the outer lugs of a 50k pot), but I'm using an audio taper so that might be the problem. Try finding a resistor to go in parallel with the outer lugs of your tone controls pot (doing a little math gives me 33.3, so a 33k resistor in parallel would do the job fine). I think if you were to use a linear taper, that problem at the end of the pot would still be there, but I could be wrong here. I do find it kind of annoying to have to tweak the tone control so carefully for a good sound, but meh, it still gets me exactly what I wanted and the entire project is costing me all of $10 (for the pots basically).

Thanks again Cliff. It may be considered passe by more experience builders but I'm having fun.
Never had a TS before. It sounds great.

There are guys out there who have built much more with way less knowledge of what they are doing, so if I can have one build do the same that somebodies 3 or 4 builds does, then whose really better off?

[96ecss]

Great info here. I'm gonna try the 1M pot at least and maybe some of the others as well.

Dave

[Pushtone]

Thanks again for the detailed reply Cliff. I'm getting into it!

This reminds me of how my Distortion + builds started off.
I built one. Then searched the forum and found much mods by Mark Hammer (GBH)
Made many mods and experimented until the board was held together with hot glue and solder.

Messed it up so bad I had to built another board with what I learned.
Then I built another "stock" one to compare.





Hey about those GGG layouts...

It's the GIF file format conversion thing thats messing you up. EZ to scale exactly!

Convert the file to a 300dpi jpg, then print.
When you convert the dpi to 300 make sure you are not re-sampling (changing the number of pixels).
In PhotoShop make sure the command called RESAMPLE IMAGE (a check box in the IMAGE SIZE dialog box) is turned off when resizing an image.

Why did JD do it this way...
Because of file size and bandwidth. GIFs get the smallest file sizes for a image and that helps JD afford his bandwidth.
PDFs are a better way of publishing a project file and JD is converting all his to PDF.
Many GGG projects are now in PDF format so there is no scaling step as with the GIFs.

The GIF layouts are fine however. Just convert them to 300dpi jpegs with resampling turned off.

[Cliff Schecht]

Yeah I noticed some of his stuff  was popping up as pdf's. I've used his layouts before when I have the room, they are always spaced better and I don't find myself squeezing in parts. I had size limitation with this TS so I went with the Tonepad layout.

[MartyMart]

Hey Cliff, glad you're liking that TS sound ... and Happy new year !!

They are not "my mods" just a collection of things from "Tech of the TS" and Keeley etc !

I like the reduced 0.22 off pin 1, never understood why that was so large !
I did try a 0.047 too, but found the overall tone a bit too bright, 0.1 is an improvement
in top end though, more noticable when the gain is raised, my original TS9 has a 0.082uf there.
I also have just a single 914/1N4002 in that one too, bit of assym - which I prefer

My DIY TS builds all have 22k linear tone pots, and seem to have better range, though about
half the pot still seems "dead" !
We need to solve that one

MM.

[wui223]

The tone pot on my TS clone also not responsive, it does subtle effect only. Anyway to cure this?

[boogietube]

The TONE control however has lots of tone crammed into the last 1/8th.

Here's the solution:

http://www.smallbearelec.com/Detail.bok?no=463

and:

http://www.banzaieffects.com/Mono-Full-Shaft-c-400.html
SKU# SKU17323

[petemoore]

  Didn't Steve @ SB get those...what were they?
  20k 'TS' Tonepots  !!
  something like 20k reverse analog but wierder than that even..whatever..TS requires a 'wierd taper' tonepot to get 'smooth/even over the range' tone control control.

[MartyMart]

"W" taper 

MM.

[wui223]

Yup i know that W taper. But it seems expensive and is not easy for me to order it as i am in Asia region.
I would like to know if there is an alternative except using that W taper.

[petemoore]

  Not exactly.
  You can try putting resistors across a 50k or so pot, to bend it's taper/reduce it's value [someone mentioned 33k fixed resistor].
  I used two 10k pots once in place of the 20kw.
  Someone re-worked the TS circuit to respond better to a standard type TC pot IIRC...Stompbox Alexa...I don't know if it's around though/google.

[Cliff Schecht]

Meh, as long as I can get the sound I want, I don't care if it takes a touch of tweaking. I'll stick with the resistor in parallel trick.

[SteveB]

Try a 2k for the tone pot. It works.
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=37882.0
Steve