4PDT?

[Alex C]

Yesterday I was reading the latest GuitarOne magazine when I saw an ad for the new line of Maxon analog time-delay effects (chorus, flanger, delay).  
       The list of features said things like sturdy metal construction blah blah "and 4PDT true-bypass switching."  This sounds a little outrageous, and I can't figure it out.  Even if it is just product hype, what else is there to switch?  In, out, indicator, and...?  
       I am very curious to know what another pole on a switch could be used for.  I'm not interested in buying the effects, I'd just like some ideas on the switching.  Anyone have any ideas?

                                                               Alex

[ExpAnonColin]

Possibly something that turns the battery voltage off, however useful it would be :

Pole 1:
To pole 2
in jack
effects in

Pole 2:
From pole 1
out jack
effects out

Pole 3:
Not connected
V+
LED

Pole 4:
Not connected
From Battery V+
To effects V+

That's my guess.

[Peter Snowberg]

If one pole is being used for switching the battery, that would make a separate pole for the LED redundant.

With an extra pole left over you could switch kitchen appliances for a very "industrial" effect.

My guess is that if they really are using a 4PDT, they are possibly using one pole to mute the effect input. Either that or this marketing can get filled along with "built using Orange Drops (with their steel leads), 100% silver wire, silver solder, and assembled by virgins on the new moon."

That's my guess anyway.

-Peter

[ExpAnonColin]

If one pole is being used for switching the battery, that would make a separate pole for the LED redundant.

Of course it would, more poles means a better pedal, right  :lol:  :roll:

[Peter Snowberg]

That's it........

Time to start using 18PDT stompswitches!  :lol:

Thanks anonymousexperimentalist, I think you've uncovered the ultimate "tone secret".

No wonder "non-true-bypass" pedals don't sound as good. Many use a momentary SPST switch. No wonder... true bypass shmipass... it's all in the poles!  :shock:  :?  

-Peter

[SoundTech]

If any are stereo, then you have one pole for in, one pole for out left, one pole for out right, and one pole for LED.

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

You can make a 4 pole switch, by mounting two 2 pole switches next to each other, and fastening a metal bar across the top of them :lol:

[Alex C]

Hey thanks Peter and anonymousexperimentalist, I think you guys are right.  I think the mojo vibes that I get from my vintage gear comes not from the carbon comps or point-to-point construction, but from multi-pole switches hidden inside.    
Also, what's the highest number of poles anyone has seen on a double-throw switch, particularily a stomp switch, but perhaps others?

[Peter Snowberg]

I've seen some 2 position rotary switches in surplus catalogs with insane pole counts. Seriously I've seen 88PDT (!), and with fairly meaty contacts too. When you get into 5 position rotaries, I've worked on a box with a rotary switch that was more than a foot deep and had way too many high-current contacts. It was tube equipment too.

For stomp switches, 3PDT is the largest I've seen. I know somebody at least used to make a 4PDT, but I havn't seen one up close and personal.


I say three cheers for anonymousexperimentalist !!! The elusive search for tone has finally ended.  :wink:

[ExpAnonColin]

How about this one?



That's mine.  15P12T.  I don't know what the hell I'm going to do with it, a lot of the tabs are missing and it's hard to turn... and how am I suppose to fit that in a pedal?  Anyone want to buy it for...  Let's see, an SPST is about a dollar or so... so that's 15*12 of that... $180 dollars?

[sfr]

i gutted a horrible 80's Peavey pedal that I got for a few bucks at a yard sale for parts and the enclosure - it had some board-mounted switch w/acctuator - and it had 8 poles - but the connections were odd, didn't really make sense.   It was basically a DPDT, but set up kind of like two DPST switches,  I guess?

I've seen the crazy rotary switches - I used a bunch of those when I was building an arcade cabinet to switch what controllers/systems where connected to the buttons - I got them from a salvage place, and they were like 80PDT.  The annoying part is sitting there with a voltage meter checking connections on all those screw tabs. . .

[Alex C]

Thanks Soundtech, that makes sense.

I have another question about switching.  Instead of using the "stereo jack trick" to switch off the battery when the input cable is unplugged and also a 3PDT to switch an indicator, why not switch all battery power through the third pole?  This would take care of the indicator and eliminate the need for a stereo jack, right?

[puretube]

you would get at least a loud pop and or other unwanted audible (un-)-sounds when switching on, and at least a couple
of milliseconds to seconds until the effect would start working, due to the time it takes to establish the correct DC-voltages throughout the circuit and the charging of the (bigger) capacitors.

[SoundTech]

Instead of using the "stereo jack trick" to switch off the battery when the input cable is unplugged and also a 3PDT to switch an indicator, why not switch all battery power through the third pole?  This would take care of the indicator and eliminate the need for a stereo jack, right?

Well, yes.  However, I can think of two drawbacks to that:

1) If your pedal is being transported in a bag to a gig or is otherwise susceptible to worldly objects happening upon it, something could accidentally engage the switch, turning on your effect and draining your battery when the effect is not in use.

2) Some circuits can be prone to unwanted audio "effects" when power is first applied.  Voltage spikes or caps charging could create problems for you if you power your circuit and use it simultaneously while playing through an amp.

[Oliver]

Possibly something that turns the battery voltage off, however useful it would be :

Pole 1:
To pole 2
in jack
effects in

Pole 2:
From pole 1
out jack
effects out

Pole 3:
Not connected
V+
LED

Pole 4:
Not connected
From Battery V+
To effects V+

That's my guess.

Hi,

to switch Bypass and the Connection of the 9V and LED it may be possible with a 3PDT Switch, isn't it?

I think when you switch the 9V - instead an LED, a connected LED in the Circuit is will go out at all, doesn't it?

Or are there any Problems with the rest of the circuit (perhaps a Pop when switching)

The Problem with battery feeded FX is, that, when it is fixed on an Effect Board with Input Jack connected, the Battery is on Work.

Will my idea Work?

bye
Oliver

[zachary vex]

you can't just go switching the power for the audio circuit on and off with the stomp switch.  it will make a terrible *pop* when you turn on the effect unless careful planning is done.  whatever reason they are using the 4pdt switch for, the analysis/judgement going on here is nonsensical.  WHO KNOWS what you might need a 4pdt for.  i've designed plenty of circuits that could benefit from one, and i've ended up creating swtiching circuits to replace the extra poles.  getting true-bypass and an LED can be accomplished with a dpdt or 3pdt, but sometimes there's a need for extra poles to control other aspects of the circuit... resetting things and reducing current draw are two possibilities, but for god's sake, let's not start bashing a company over a switch.

[Alex C]

Hey Zachary,
I can’t speak for the other guys, but as I understood it we were making light of common classic ideas such as carbon composition resistors and silver solder which, whether based on fact or not, seem to be the subject of great amounts of discussion.  I didn’t intend to bash any company, just having fun with our crazy ideas.  I first posted in sort of self-mockery, because I had no idea at all what it could be for, and I was poking fun at my own ignorance.  I understand that you have a company of your own (about which I have heard nothing but fantastic things, by the way), and I guess for us it’s hard to imagine what it’s like to do this professionally.  I think that most of us here don’t have the technical knowledge to have detailed analytical discussions about each topic, so please try to understand what it’s like for us too.  Thanks for your ideas too.

Alex

[Peter Snowberg]

I think Alex hit the nail on the head. I took this whole thread as a tongue in cheek look at effects marketing and switching with no disrespect to Maxon.

While on one hand it might be nonsensical to guess how they could be using a 4PDT, in the process of guessing I wouldn't be surprised if somebody had an "Ah Ha!" experience. Thanks for adding a couple more possibilities.

Asking how and why are the source of a lot of ideas.

Take care,
-Peter

[sfr]

well, i got bored and googled Maxon effects - I found a few different sites but after punching in "Maxon 4PDT" into Google, i found this site; with the following info:  

Q) Are the Maxon 9-Series models actually true bypass?

A) In some ways the answer to this question is a matter of semantics and perhaps we need to clarify a few things before saying "yes or no." First off, the initial two shipments of 9-Series units (AF-9, OD-9, and SD-9) sent to the USA were configured as true bypass switching (TBS) using a DPDT switch. For purists, calling these models TBS was considered a false statement, as many believe that to achieve TBS you must use a 3PDT switch. However, we were more concerned about performance than anything else, and when these units measured lower resistive loads in bypass than pedals that actually used 3PDT switches (drop us an e-mail for the test results), we felt justified in calling them True Bypass, regardless of the Internet gossip.

Shortly after this, Maxon decided to re-introduce the AD-9 and CS-9 Pro, which caused a new problem - since these models had dual outputs, a DPDT switch wouldn't work to make them TBS. Therefore, Maxon decided to go with a 4PDT mini PC mount switch for these models in order to assure their transparent operation in bypass, regardless of mono or stereo operation.

Since they were using the 4PDT switches anyway, Maxon decided to upgrade all the 9-Series models to TBS using the 4PDT switch in an effort to please even the toughest customers. Now, every 9-Series model that ships uses this switching configuration and the debate over whether they are TBS or not is finally laid to rest.

So that's what they're doing with the 4PDT.

(click above for that site - there's also some interesting info in the FAQ about Maxon's relations with Ibanez, (of note to TS fans) which may have been what confused me, that and that the first site I looked at was the English version of the Japanese Maxon site.  . . )

edit:  actually, just started reading more of the FAQ there, they offer to let you know by email if they think any of the trimpots are worth user-adjusting if yr curious, and give a decent amount of info of the workings of their pedals on the page - kind of nice.

[troubledtom]

i use 3pdt's to tame the alphawave. you can get 4pdt's from chriselectronics. i've never sold a device w/ one in it but i have used them in the lab and the studio [ they haven't failed yet ].
       
                 peace,
                      - tom :wink: