"Heritage" layouts

[Ben N]

I meant to chime in here sooner.  RG is absolutely correct.  A case some of you may recall is the one against George Harrison for "My Sweet Lord", which was found to infringe on the copyright of "He's So Fine", even though his testimony, which was accepted as truthful, was that he knew the tune and may have unconsciously borrowed part of it, but unintentionally.  And there are minor differences.

The point someone makes here is that it probably isn't worth the copyright owners' while to sue low-level, non-commercial infringers.  That may be true--or not, when penalties are not limited to actual damages, as RG states.  I knew some guys who actually produced records consisting almost entirely of copyright infringements, who got away with it by flying under the radar (their sales were in the area of 5,000 copies per).  Chances are you will too, Andy, but my (entirely unsolicited) advice would be to err on the side of caution--especially in this area where there are plenty of other, clearly non-infringing, layouts that are as good or better.

Ben

[Dragonfly]

You know what...it's not worth the headaches and effort...

Try to do something fun....

AC

[skiraly017]

You know what...it's not worth the headaches and effort...

Try to do something fun....

AC

I thought what you were doing was cool and appreciated the effort. Just wanted to let you know.

[Wild Zebra]

Wow, talk about raining on the parade.  Andy, Thanks for your efforts anyways.  I hope some of you never see me cross the street while the "don't walk" sign is flashing.  I could be in big trouble.

[R.G.]

I thought what you were doing was cool and appreciated the effort. Just wanted to let you know.

I thought it was a worthy effort, too. I just hated to see someone I respect setting themselves up for potential trouble.

Wow, talk about raining on the parade.  Andy, Thanks for your efforts anyways.  I hope some of you never see me cross the street while the "don't walk" sign is flashing.  I could be in big trouble.

'course, *maybe* one of your friends will be watching when you do cross against the "don't walk" sign and pull you out of the way of a bus. All people advising you not to do something are hidebound rule-followers. Some of them may just be watching out for you.

[Dragonfly]

Thanks guys...

RG and the others are just trying to save me possible future headaches, so i definitely appreciate their concerns/advice/etc...

Its a shame that we live in such a litigious society...these were layouts that weren't exactly the same as the vintage style ones, but close enough just to be "in the spirit of", if you know what i mean.

Anyway, a forum member was kind enough to send me some photos of a bunch of different pedals, so when i return from LA, i'll still trace them out and post the schemo's and a layout...they'll just be like the layouts that i have been already doing....

As always, have a great day...talk to you soon...

AC

[Dragonfly]

I thought what you were doing was cool and appreciated the effort. Just wanted to let you know.

I thought it was a worthy effort, too. I just hated to see someone I respect setting themselves up for potential trouble.

Wow, talk about raining on the parade.  Andy, Thanks for your efforts anyways.  I hope some of you never see me cross the street while the "don't walk" sign is flashing.  I could be in big trouble.

'course, *maybe* one of your friends will be watching when you do cross against the "don't walk" sign and pull you out of the way of a bus. All people advising you not to do something are hidebound rule-followers. Some of them may just be watching out for you.

Believe me RG...i appreciate it. We were "posting at the same time"

I'm just a bit bummed about it...  oh well...life will, i'm afraid, continue....   

AC

[skiraly017]

Anyway, a forum member was kind enough to send me some photos of a bunch of different pedals, so when i return from LA, i'll still trace them out and post the schemo's and a layout...they'll just be like the layouts that i have been already doing....

Anything cool? 

[Ben N]

As one of the party-poopers, I also want to say there is no joy in it, and I'm not defending the law for stopping people from doing something fun that doesn't hurt anyone--but, like RG, I was concerned that an excellent guy and contributor to the community might be setting himself up for some grief.
Sorry
Ben

[markm]

Thanks guys...

RG and the others are just trying to save me possible future headaches, so i definitely appreciate their concerns/advice/etc...

Its a shame that we live in such a litigious society...these were layouts that weren't exactly the same as the vintage style ones, but close enough just to be "in the spirit of", if you know what i mean.

Anyway, a forum member was kind enough to send me some photos of a bunch of different pedals, so when i return from LA, i'll still trace them out and post the schemo's and a layout...they'll just be like the layouts that i have been already doing....

As always, have a great day...talk to you soon...

AC

Will the layouts still be the "Heritage" style......I like those!

[Sir H C]

Anyway, a forum member was kind enough to send me some photos of a bunch of different pedals, so when i return from LA, i'll still trace them out and post the schemo's and a layout...they'll just be like the layouts that i have been already doing....

Anything cool? 

Should be.  Have to get pics of more...

[tungngruv]

It seems the "right/wrong" thing comes up here quite a bit. While I do see the valid points, both positive and negative, I think it's a shame that a person that has spent his or her own free time (like there really is such a thing as free time these days) to draw up something as cool as those layouts, then share them and then almost go through getting spanked for their effort and time. This goes out to anyone who has drawn up and posted a layout (12 pages of layouts on this site alone). Thanks, really...... Thank You.

[Ben N]

I hate to beat a dead horse, but what is being discussed here is not about "the right thing" or "the wrong thing".  I, for one, see not a thing wrong with copying the layout of an original Dallas Arbiter Fuzz Face for fun and not for profit.  But the law, sadly, does.

[blanik]

sooo we all agree on the fact that DF's vintage layouts are cool, moral, and he doesn't make money with them... so everyone here is confortable with the layouts?   ... GOOD 
(besides, if someone would want to make a profit out of this, all those FX are already available either on PCB (TonePad, GGG) or on vero... both those options are a lot more convenient to use than the vintage layouts (smaller size) ...this settles the moral dillemma 

now for the legal dillemma...
if those schematic are posted on a server outside the USA, can anyone of those companies do anything about it (besides pressuring the White House to invade the country where the server is located? )

it's very easy to find anonymous server space outside USA (hell, all those on-line gambling sites do just that)
is it legal to post links going on a page with "criminal" layouts ?? and how about making those layouts available to members of this forum only? could this be considered "private space"?

just throwing ideas here....!, but instead of debating the moral/legal (since we all agree on the fact that it's moral), maybe we should all work at finding a solution so we can keep those cool layouts and protect the innocent (DF) at the same time 

R.

[nightingale]

Let it be!
I have been in this community for 6yr+.
I guess this is just the thread I needed to to read to put a bullet in this whole hobby!
I never really contributed much except some rare fuzz gutz in my time. I am surprised that a post from RG would be curtains for me.

fuzz on,
ry

[col]

I know that there are several pedal makers using copies of original circuits and there is one UK Boutique amp manufacturer who makes 'fuzzy faces', I can't remember which one but it was in Guitar Mag last year where it showed them being made. Surely if anyone involved in this hobby is genuinely doing it for themselves and not making profit, or making them for other people then what is the harm?

[R.G.]

(besides, if someone would want to make a profit out of this, all those FX are already available either on PCB (TonePad, GGG) or on vero... both those options are a lot more convenient to use than the vintage layouts (smaller size) ...this settles the moral dillemma  icon_rolleyes

If only things were that simple. Andy posts layout. Black Bart, a would-be boutique FX maker who is too slow to do his own layouts and too cheap to buy them from GGG makes and sells them, advertising them as "exact copies of the original, vintage effect!". The owner of the copyright sees the layouts and concludes that he is being infringed. What does HE think about the morality?

now for the legal dillemma...
if those schematic are posted on a server outside the USA, can anyone of those companies do anything about it (besides pressuring the White House to invade the country where the server is located? icon_wink)
it's very easy to find anonymous server space outside USA (hell, all those on-line gambling sites do just that)

Kewl. If they can't get to us, it's legal, right? 

Let's assume that the situation above happens, and that the copyright owner is in the USA. He concludes that (a) his ownership is being infringed and (b) there is a conspiracy to do so, as evidence of which the info is deliberately posted on a web site that's outside the jurisdiction of the USA. He can still get to Andy in the USA courts for making the layouts ( both civil and criminal offenses ) and for consipiracy to commit a felony, which is itself a criminal act in the USA. The copyright owner now files complaints for the -two- criminal acts as well as filing suit for the civil offense. Assuming that the owner can get a prosecutor to prosecute, Andy is now defending himself agains two criminal actions and one civil suit. The basic legal defense on a criminal action in the USA starts at about $100K and the sky is the limit. You might get off cheaper for the civil suit if the action is settled before court, but if it goes to court, it will also start at about $100K. These are not made-up numbers; I had to use the legal system in a civil action on my aunt's estate, and I have attorney friends who have told me about defending criminal actions. Simply getting an attorney to start defending you will require a $10K retainer up front.

is it legal to post links going on a page with "criminal" layouts ?? and how about making those layouts available to members of this forum only? could this be considered "private space"?

The fact that an infringement is done privately is not necessarily a defense. If the infringement goes beyond "fair use" (and letting others make copies probably does - just ask Sony) then it's just as big an issue as if you were selling them in the civil arena. It probably lowers the criminal penalties a bit, but IANAL, and your results might vary.

just throwing ideas here....!, but instead of debating the moral/legal (since we all agree on the fact that it's moral), maybe we should all work at finding a solution so we can keep those cool layouts and protect the innocent (DF) at the same time

I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that we all agree that it's moral, no matter how many times we decide to wink.

I think you should spend some time making your own copyrightable works and having people copy them before you make that assumption. Getting something for free is always fun as long as you're not the person who thought up the stuff that's being copied for free.

I have to point out that in my personal experience in my youth, getting copies of copyrighted stuff was neato and a blow against the evil empire and the heavy gray corporations until I first saw copies of my own work spread around and attributed to someone else. That's a kind of watershed experience that I think every person who thinks that all copying is moral should have before spending a lot of time on what's moral or not.

[ulysses]

If you think you are about to do something that may get you into legal problems, retain an attorney of your own.

evryone should have their own Dr. Gonzo. i know i do.

cheers
ulysses

[Dragonfly]

Here's what it boils down to....

There are other layouts of these effects available....for some of us, the "heritage/vintage/whatever style would be fun, just for the "novelty" of it....BUT...as the guy DOING the layouts, who put HIS time into it, etc, etc... NOVELTY IS NOT WORTH THE HEADACHES...

Do I think I'd get sued ? No.

Do I think a manufacturer may possibly contact me about taking them down ? Possibly.

Do I gain anything from being the guy "doing" these layouts ? No, other than personal satisfaction.

Is "personal satisfaction" worth spending all that time and effort, only to have a "chance" at being able to keep them posted? No...not when I could spend the time doing other layouts and KNOW that they'll be usable.

You see, part of the reason I did these layouts was for novelty...the other part was for "personal learning". Seeing how OTHER people (who are obviously more knowledgable than I ) layout their creations helps ME in doing layouts of my own pedals...as well as layouts of classic effects.

I'll close this with a quick thought. I GREATLY appreciate RG and Bens advice. I also GREATLY appreciate the support from all the others who would like to see the layouts "remain posted". All in all though, I wonder if there would've been this much interest in these layouts if the "legality issue" hadn't come up ? Just a guess, but this thread would've likely been on the second page, alongside of the threads I recently posted regarding the DeArmond Square Wave Fuzz layout, The Ibanez Fat Cat layout, and the MXR Distortion + layout. Those threads had no mention of "legality", and sank to the bottom like a brick....this thread ends up discussing legality and stays at the top of the forum for days. Hmmmm....

AC

[idlechatterbox]

QUOTE:
"Do I gain anything from being the guy "doing" these layouts ? No, other than personal satisfaction."


It won't help you pay the bills, for for what it's worth, I benefit from the fact that you get so much personal satisfaction out of doing the layouts, "heritage" or otherwise. Thanks for doing the heavy lifting.