Use CD4013/CD4047 in place of MN3101?

[Zben3129]

Is there any way to modify a circuit, say the tonepad CE-2, to use a cd4013/4047 instead of a mn3101? Would this be doable with a daughterboard?

Zach

[Zben3129]

Hmmm,

After taking a look at some schematics, it seems to me that 4047 is indeed capable of clocking a BBD. However, it doesn't seem like 4013's are used as clock drivers at all, rather some sort of buffer/splitter/divider?

4047 is a monostable vibrator, correct? Does that mean that it can produce the frequen(cies?) to drive a BBD?

Also, I am not sure if it is just a difference between the Small Clone and the CE-2 but the way the 4047 recieves the signal from the LFO seems very different. Also, does the LFO produce the same wave in each (relatively) or are they different kinds of LFO aswell.

My goal is to be able to either:
1. Design a daughterboard for the CE-2 to use CD4047 (55 cents) instead of the MN3101 (hard to get, OOP, $8)

or if that is not possible...

2. Modify the CE-2 to use CD4047 with as little board messing as possible.



Does the mn3101 play an important role in the sound of the CE2 or can the same clock frequency be obtained using a CD4047.


Thanks

Zach

[oldschoolanalog]

This help?
http://www.synthdiy.com/files/2007/electro_harmonix_clone_theory_mn3007.jpg

[Zben3129]

Hmm....


I think I get how to set up a CD4047 to drive a MN3007 after some more reading (thanks for link, small clone?). The thing I am not sure about is how similarly a 4047 and a 3101 work...getting the CE-2 from tonepad to work with a 4047 for example.

Zach

[StephenGiles]

EH/ADA/Pearl used a 4047 to drive BBDs, I think I used one for my Yamaha 1010 delay. In fact I never used a 3101 because a 4047 was much cheaper!!

[snap]

a 4049 & half a 4013 would work also!

[Thomeeque]

 Hi!

I would be interested (probably) in the same thing as Zach:

It is already obvious that other common clock generator IC's can be used to drive MN3007 BBD (to all given examples I can add R.G.Keen's http://www.geofex.com/PCB_layouts/Layouts/zombie.pdf and http://www.geofex.com/pcb_layouts/layouts/ultrafln.pdf using 4046 as clock generator), but there still remains question, if it is possible to get same modulation characteristics as with MN3101 for given circuits (e.g. CS-2)? I don't think it's so simple and impact of different sweep course can be huge..

T.

[StephenGiles]

Hi!

I would be interested (probably) in the same thing as Zach:

It is already obvious that other common clock generator IC's can be used to drive MN3007 BBD (to all given examples I can add R.G.Keen's http://www.geofex.com/PCB_layouts/Layouts/zombie.pdf and http://www.geofex.com/pcb_layouts/layouts/ultrafln.pdf using 4046 as clock generator), but there still remains question, if it is possible to get same modulation characteristics as with MN3101 for given circuits (e.g. CS-2)? I don't think it's so simple and impact of different sweep course can be huge..

T.

Do you really want to? I find other combinations sound much better.

[Thomeeque]

Do you really want to?

If I'd want to make exact clone, definitely.. at least for start..

I find other combinations sound much better.

Cool, could you be more specific, please?

[StephenGiles]

Do you really want to?

If I'd want to make exact clone, definitely.. at least for start..

I find other combinations sound much better.

Cool, could you be more specific, please?

Using the ADA and Electric Mistress Flangers - the ultimate as far as I'm concerned, I have no need for the 3101.

[puretube]

Do yourselves a favour (and I`m not addressing Sir Giles here...) and have a closer look at the 3101/3102 datasheets...
it ain`t nothing but an ordinary textbook 3-inverter (RC-controllable) oscillator,
followed by a flipflop (= half a 4013) to get 50% dutycycle,
followed by a "driver" for each phase (= 2 inverters),
plus a 2-resistor divider for the V_GG (=14/15th V_DD) help-voltage;


anything similar will do the same - or better...
(though I admit that the 8-pin package is very tempting);




.

[Thomeeque]

Do you really want to?

If I'd want to make exact clone, definitely.. at least for start..

I find other combinations sound much better.

Cool, could you be more specific, please?

Using the ADA and Electric Mistress Flangers - the ultimate as far as I'm concerned, I have no need for the 3101.

So you mean to build completely diferrent pedal (never based on MN3xxx family), not only clock generator, right?

Do yourselves a favour (and I`m not addressing Sir Giles here...) and have a closer look at the 3101/3102 datasheets...
it ain`t nothing but an ordinary textbook 3-inverter (RC-controllable) oscillator,
followed by a flipflop (= half a 4013) to get 50% dutycycle,
followed by a "driver" for each phase (= 2 inverters),
plus a 2-resistor divider for the V_GG (=14/15th V_DD) help-voltage;


anything similar will do the same - or better...
(though I admit that the 8-pin package is very tempting);




.

So what similar would you advice (to make simplest MN3101 replacement without need to alter LFO section)?

[puretube]

4069 + 4013 + 2 resistors
(only one half of the 4013 used for the clock...)

[puretube]

4069 + 4013 + 2 resistors
(only one half of the 4013 used for the clock...)

But: err, I don`t like all those "known" LFO-to-Clock sections... 

[Zben3129]

The 4013 isn't needed with a 4047 I thought.

The 4047 can directly drive the 3007, can't it?

Zach

[puretube]

ooops - yes - right you are: the 4047 already got the flipflop in it...*

I mixed up a question by Stephen about the 4047 from 2 years ago:
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=51841.0
with the neccessity of symmetryzing the outputs of a 4046...

*plus driving buffers...

[Zben3129]

Now, heres the part I am unsure about -

Would a mn3101 and a CD4047 be able to use the same LFO, or would a different frequency be needed for each, therefore requiring a different LFO?


By the way, the CE-2 uses mn3101, and the Small Stone (Clone maybe? The chorus one) uses  CD4047. Both @ Tonepad. What I am trying to do is use the 4047 section from the Ross in place of the mn3101 section in the CE-2, hopefully via a daughterboard.

Thanks


Zach