DIY cassette-based tape echo

[Top Top]

Ok... I looked through past posts and found a lot less discussion on this than I expected in past threads.

I have been thinking about rigging up a cassette-based echo... but what I am thinking is not using loops, but instead using just regular cassette tapes. It could run for 30 min or 45 min depending on the tape, and then just flip it over. The loop thing just doesn't seem worth it to me, as cool as it is...

My basic idea is to make the following modifications to a 2-head tape deck:

1. Simultaneous record and playback. I assume you would need to isolate where the input and output circuitry on the tape deck are and figure out how to keep both heads active during record, but this doesn't seem like it should be that hard - just manually apply power to both and disable the on/off switching that is linked to the play and record buttons.

2. Add two simple mixers - to be able to do a wet/dry mix, and an input/regen mix.

3. Motor speed control - this seems like it shouldn't be that hard. When a walkman is running out of batteries it runs slow, so some control of the voltage to the motor would do it I think.

However... there has to be some problems with this... or there would be more people doing this? Maybe it's just not worth it for the effort vs. a digital delay?

If all else failed, how hard would it be to build some kind of franken-tape deck where you installed a second head and you had to build the tape head preamp for it from scratch? Or just take it from the deck where you got the head from?

[deathfaces]

I'm thinking about trying out one of these bad boys. is this what you're talking about?

http://moosapotamus.net/IDEAS/Echo-Matic_a.gif
http://moosapotamus.net/IDEAS/Echo-Matic_b.gif

[teletroy]

Weird timing I was sitting here earlier today thinking about finding two walkmans to see if I can butcher together a tape delay unit  I think it's doable

[Strategy]

Google this, I've seen several "modified tape deck" delays online - though they look pretty complex, walkmans should be easily found at the goodwill, value village etc.

- Strategy

[connie_c]

There is something like this in the stompbox cookbook. I dont have my "copy" handy but you can buy it here http://www.amazon.com/Stompbox-Cookbook-Advanced-Effects-Electric/dp/0966382412 for only $229.95


edit:i think that deathfaces post is pointing at the same thing.

[JKowalski]

However... there has to be some problems with this... or there would be more people doing this? Maybe it's just not worth it for the effort vs. a digital delay?

It will work, and work fine, but there are problems (mostly problems dealing with how motivated you are):

Reliability (depends on effort and craftsmanship)
Low fidelity (depends on system used, I guess)
Mechanical construction/modification (people shun away from this)

In my very early days learning electronics, I began a project like this, but totally gave up on it when I realized it would never sound like an echoplex does, never be as reliable, and even the digital delay I had recently built sounded better than what I could get out of my experiments.

Go ahead and build it, but I have to warn you that  I don't think in the end you will consider it anything more than a fun little project.

[Rectangular]

if you can find a reel-to-reel for cheap, locally (dont hunt on ebay, the shipping will cost too much),  then I would recommend using that. most akai reels have  three heads and are perfect for making a simple tape delay. all you need is a little mixer with an "effects send", alternatively, you can use the headphone out jack as a makeshift effects send.

Ive tried to build a cassette tape delay many many times, but simply locating a three head cassette desk with "tape monitoring" as a option is rather difficult, whereas most reel-to-reels feature tape/source monitor switches. 

[Top Top]

if you can find a reel-to-reel for cheap, locally (dont hunt on ebay, the shipping will cost too much),  then I would recommend using that. most akai reels have  three heads and are perfect for making a simple tape delay. all you need is a little mixer with an "effects send", alternatively, you can use the headphone out jack as a makeshift effects send.

Ive tried to build a cassette tape delay many many times, but simply locating a three head cassette desk with "tape monitoring" as a option is rather difficult, whereas most reel-to-reels feature tape/source monitor switches.  

I actually just headed out to a couple thrift stores, and you are right. I looked at probably 10 tape decks, and none of them were three head. It looks like I would likely have to butcher in a third head for playback.

One thing I saw that WAS interesting was dual tape answering machines... that could be used with the weird two tape loop thing without as much hacking as a normal dual tape deck, because the two tapes go under one lid without much between them.

They actually had a reel to reel there, but wanted $50 for it. I am sort of kicking myself because I have owned two different 1/4" reel to reels but they are both long gone now.

[Rectangular]

50 bucks isn't bad for a reel-to-reel, depending on the model, and the weight.

I wouldn't recommend hacking answering machines. the switching circuitry tends to be weird, and proprietary, plus the results are very very lo-fi. you'll end up wasting more time than its worth, just to get thing recording and playing back.   

[The Tone God]

I have a couple of mini cassette recorders that I was going to hack together to make a tape delay. That sorta got put off once I build the dub machine but I still want to do it for a laugh.

Andrew

[earthtonesaudio]

Hm.. You could make the tape into a Möbius strip and be able to record both sides with a single head... then maybe use dual heads for better fidelity.

[amptramp]

I could see putting tape on a cylinder with record and read heads on it and either moving the heads with respect to each other or changing the rotational speed of the cylinder to vary the delay.  (Maybe add an erase head immediately after the read head.)  This sounds like an interesting project but it is not past the proof-of-principle stage yet.  Just be prepared for it to not sound that great.

[JKowalski]

I could see putting tape on a cylinder with record and read heads on it and either moving the heads with respect to each other or changing the rotational speed of the cylinder to vary the delay.  (Maybe add an erase head immediately after the read head.)  This sounds like an interesting project but it is not past the proof-of-principle stage yet.  Just be prepared for it to not sound that great.

You mean like

This?



I think that's your proof-of-principle right there!

Binson Echorec, uses a magnetic drum cylinder.

Sparked my memory, completely...

If you were going to make DIY mechanical/analog delay, this is the method I would use. I was considering trying this and still am (now that I remember considering it  ) - I have two nice record/read heads waiting for an interesting project - The only problem is finding a magnetic drum cylinder! Just sticking recording tape onto a cylinder is gonna get you somewhere, but it ain't gonna last and you'll have that BUMP everytime you reach the point the two ends of the tape connect. Anyone got some ideas to share?

Maybe some kind of paint-on-magnetic storage material or something?  

[Rectangular]

the binson echorec approach looks promising,  but once you start adding electromechanics (trying to get a motor in there), getting the azimuth alignment just right, not to mention finding a suitable magnetic material.   again, there are much faster and effecient methods of getting a cheap tape echo.

[JKowalski]

the binson echorec approach looks promising,  but once you start adding electromechanics (trying to get a motor in there), getting the azimuth alignment just right, not to mention finding a suitable magnetic material.   again, there are much faster and effecient methods of getting a cheap tape echo.

The key idea I was getting at was making a mechanical echo that was actually good quality and reliable, not just a "cheap tape echo".

Motor is not much of a problem at all, as long as you have good craftsmanship and get the right parts for the job. Mounting the heads at the correct angle and heights does not either, because like the echorec, you just need to make them adjustable with screws for fine tuning. I still think the only real problem is still the magnetic material.

[wavley]

the binson echorec approach looks promising,  but once you start adding electromechanics (trying to get a motor in there), getting the azimuth alignment just right, not to mention finding a suitable magnetic material.   again, there are much faster and effecient methods of getting a cheap tape echo.

The key idea I was getting at was making a mechanical echo that was actually good quality and reliable, not just a "cheap tape echo".

Motor is not much of a problem at all, as long as you have good craftsmanship and get the right parts for the job. Mounting the heads at the correct angle and heights does not either, because like the echorec, you just need to make them adjustable with screws for fine tuning. I still think the only real problem is still the magnetic material.

It's not as big of a deal if you use an open tray like in the Roland or Korg units, then you just use 1/4" tape and 1/4" heads from a reel to reel

[Top Top]

The binson is actually got me sparked on the idea of a mechanical/magnetic delay... but ultimately, doing that all from scratch is too much for me, which is why I thought of a cassette-based unit.

[Strategy]

Here's a totally different idea: a friend of mine proposed that you take a recording tape deck and use a pot to vary the amount of voltage going to the erase head! Theoretically resulting in attenuable non erasing sound on sound capabilities.

I have absolutely not enough knowledge of tape head electronics to know if this would work, anyone?

- Strategy

[Top Top]

Here's a totally different idea: a friend of mine proposed that you take a recording tape deck and use a pot to vary the amount of voltage going to the erase head! Theoretically resulting in attenuable non erasing sound on sound capabilities.

I have absolutely not enough knowledge of tape head electronics to know if this would work, anyone?

- Strategy

This could make a cool looper type thing, but I think you would need a very short loop and fast tape speed for it to make a delay-type effect, wouldn't you?

[deathfaces]

From what i've researched, and i've hacked apart a few cassette decks, is that the sound quality to hassle ratio is way quiet great. the echomatic seems like an interesting project i personally am going to try in the future, but using cassettes for the entire echo would be tough because they only have one entry point for a head. tape echos have the heads positioned apart in order to get the effect, so a digital might not sound amazing, but i think the effort going into amplifying multiple heads along a loose tape system that worked well would be difficult. if anyone is up to the challenge, i'd love to see the result, but if your hardcore about tape echo, it might be worth your sanity to just spend the dough on a space echo or echoplex.

Note: I've been building tape machines and have tried to design one of these without result, but this doesnt mean i've given up on the project either, so i don't want to sound discouraging, but i think being realistic about sound quality is important.

BUT HELL, I totally want to see you try!