Methods of Pedal Contruction...

[swinginguitar]

So I've breadboarded my first effects circuit and am laying out a PC Board design.

I would like some feedback from those with more experience than I on some details:

1 - how do you mount your PCBs? Standoffs? Board mounted components (switches/jacks/pots)?
2 - for board mounting a 3PDT, do you just enlarge the pad holes and use a standard switch, or an SMD 3PDT?
3 - is it worth the effort to board mount switches/jacks/pots/LEDs, or is it better just to mount all of that to the enclosure and wire it "off board"?
4 - Any general tips on component layout on a PCB? Trying to keep the board small and the traces short....hairpulling experience at times.

[deadastronaut]

i would go with off board wiring for now..i prefer it...easier to debug/see etc...

standoffs are good for the pcb..as long as you make room on it for a couple of holes to fix to when you design it........

and then pull the rest of your hair out...

what is it?...

[mth5044]

IMO:

1 - If the PCB is big enough, I just let it rest inside with the wires. If it's a small fuzz or something, I use doublesided tape to keep it on the enclosure or on the pack of a pot(s). Some premade boards, like GGG's, have standoff holes. If I use a premade board, I would take advantage of them, but I usually don't so I don't.

2 - There is an Eagle file floating around that has the PCB layout for board mounting a 3PDT switch. Small Bear also sells something similar. The holes would need to be enlarged to fit the lugs of the switch, or you could use a PCB-mount switch with pins. As far as I know, no SMD 3PDT exists for stomping.

3 - All depends on what you want. Wiring is one of the biggest hassles, so if you want to keep it nice and clean, go for it. Problems arise when you don't leave enough room for a jack/switch, if you get your enclosures predrilled, they might not be as accurate then the whole board won't fit in (read that PPP has some trouble doing this). I also read that if you board mount multiple external devices that the PCB is liable to fracture.

4 - I would pick up RG Keens PCB Layout book (forget the title, I'm at work) from Small Bear. Helps you figure out how to lay things out. It is a matter of trial and error. Recently I have been playing around with a ground pour on the top layer so no ground has to be routed on the bottom. Throw in a 9v trace on the top and you can make the layout incredably small. You wouldprobably have to get the board made at a fab house thoug, nless you can do double sided PCB's yoursefl.

[swinginguitar]

standoffs are good for the pcb..as long as you make room on it for a couple of holes to fix to when you design it........

I have some standoffs/screws. Is it OK to epoxy them to the enclosure (don't really want screws visible outside the enclosure)? What other methods are there to attach standoffs to the enclosure?

[deadastronaut]

standoffs are good for the pcb..as long as you make room on it for a couple of holes to fix to when you design it........

I have some standoffs/screws. Is it OK to epoxy them to the enclosure (don't really want screws visible outside the enclosure)? What other methods are there to attach standoffs to the enclosure?

you want plastic ones really...they have a sticky pad that will stick to the box..and then  put a little epoxy on the joint....

this is handy if you ever want to mod it..or repair etc..the pcb clips in and clips out...

some people just stick double sided foam on the copper side and then stick to the back of the pots...or the box inner ..

(checkout the pictures thread...)

which is cool too..and keeps your wires short...

i wouldnt use screws unless your completely sure it isnt going to touch the pcb traces/stray wires/ etc..

theres enough conductive bits in there already!..(now there a quote)........

buy a pounds/dollars worth of standoffs or foam in short!.........

good luck .

[DougH]

http://www.diystompboxes.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

[zombiwoof]

There are tutorials on Small Bear's site that cover all facets of pedal construction, with step-by-step instructions.  Check them out.

Al

[darron]

not exactly what you need, but it gives me a chance to show off something i made yesterday:

http://www.dazatronyx.com/tour/


for switch mount boards it of course depends on the program that you are designing in. make the pads as big as you can without them shorting to each other and the donut/drill hole as tight as it can get to still get the switch through, that will give it mechanical strength...

[edvard]

So, to expand this original thread, I have some questions to add to OP's...

I've read a whole bunch, and looked at a bunch of pictures and downloaded every box drill template I could get my hands on, but I still have questions as to what the best way to stick parts in a box is.
I personally prefer the Hammond 1590BB size and similar boxes so there's lots of room for off-board components, but I still get stuck on the most space-efficient way to pack all those parts in, and ultimately much of that determines how I lay out my boards.
All considerations, from where the power and ground pads go, to what size the circuit board should be are all affected by how the parts fit in the darn box.
So, here's me asking for more comments on you folks' favorite layout methods, m'kay?

For the PCB:
Do you like the parts side out or in?
"Parts side out" means the parts show when you take the bottom cover off to replace the battery.
Since most pedals are arranged right-to-left, 'parts side out' makes it easy to design the board left-to-right, the way most schematics go.
However, I've found this makes it harder to mount pots, so my builds are usually done solder side out.
But which way is best in your opinion?

For the Pots:
Right-angle pc mount pots make a handy jig to mount the PCB to, but is this best?
Any practical reasons for choosing 16mm pots over 24mm if I only need 2 or 3?

For the In/Out jacks:
Do you like them at the north side of the box, or left/right sides?
If at the sides, where? Towards the top, or the middle (like many commercial production pedals)?
Do you go out of your way to leave room inside, or can they be positioned under pots, boards, etc.?
I've thought also about mounting the board to pc-mount jacks, but thought better of it after having to repair a Tech21 XXL pedal... Grr...

For the Footswitch:
Do you like it centered, or offset?
I've noticed many builds make room for a battery between the south side of the box and the switch.
Does this always work out, or would there be any reason to move the battery (see next question) and locate the switch closer to the edge?

For the Battery:
Is it always best to put it between the south side and the switch?
There appears to be room to put the battery under the pots (like the DOD pedals) any reason why it shouldn't go there?

Whew... I think that's all my questions for now.
I understand that in the end, it all comes down to my personal preference, but what I'm looking for is practical experience and wisdom from folks here who've built way more pedals than I have.
Perhaps by nature I'm a little more cautious than I should be, but nobody relishes the thought of drilling a box and finding out your newest wiz-bang circuit just won't fit where you thought it would
Thanks.

[mth5044]

Parts side out -- Not sure why, never did it the other way

I always use solder lugs/wires for pots because it makes the pcb smaller which = less money. 16mm pots because you can put them closer together and, when ordering in bulk, you never know how many knobs the next project will have.

North side when it is possible. You can fit more pedals next to each other that way.

Switch position depends on box. You said you usually use a BB, so it depends on the orientation of the box and how many switches. If it is orientated so that it is long top to bottom and one switch, then I put it in the middle. If it's long was is left to right, then I put it on the right corner.

No comment about batteries, I don't use them.

[Pigyboy]

not exactly what you need, but it gives me a chance to show off something i made yesterday:

http://www.dazatronyx.com/tour/


for switch mount boards it of course depends on the program that you are designing in. make the pads as big as you can without them shorting to each other and the donut/drill hole as tight as it can get to still get the switch through, that will give it mechanical strength...

Hi Darron,
How are you putting the negatives onto the copper clad? I don't understand what mean by lasering it on. And a tutorial on how you make the drilling jigs would be interesting.
Cheers,
Chris

[jkokura]

A lot of this is MY OPINION and should not be taken as the only truth. It's ok if you don't like what my opinion is, but it's based on my experience with my builds over the years.

I've read a whole bunch, and looked at a bunch of pictures and downloaded every box drill template I could get my hands on, but I still have questions as to what the best way to stick parts in a box is.
I personally prefer the Hammond 1590BB size and similar boxes so there's lots of room for off-board components, but I still get stuck on the most space-efficient way to pack all those parts in, and ultimately much of that determines how I lay out my boards.

I use 125B's, 1590BB's, 1790ns', and 1590DD's depending on the size of the pedal. For the 1590BB, I generally put my jacks on the 'top of the box, the end that faces away from the guitarist generally. If you're really smart, you can get the jacks to fit below the pots, giving you LOTS of room in there for other stuff. You have to measure carefully, but it's easily done. I try and mount all my jacks on the 'top' which is why I use 125B's instead of 1590B's.

[/quote]For the PCB:
Do you like the parts side out or in?[/quote]

Usually out. I try hard to have the PCB be against an insulator which is attached to the inside of the box.


[/quote]For the Pots:
Right-angle pc mount pots make a handy jig to mount the PCB to, but is this best?
Any practical reasons for choosing 16mm pots over 24mm if I only need 2 or 3?[/quote]

Right angle - great if you can use them. However, it may mean that the board is 'floating' in the enclosure. This is fine if that's alright with you. For some it isn't. I've actually turned to doing this when I can recently, specifically using Diode Lead cuttings to create PCB mount pots out of 16mm pots with Lugs...

16mm or 24mm Either are fine. I've used both, and it depends on a build. For example, in a 1590BB with 3 pots you can easily use 24mm, but it's harder to squeeze 4 in. I know that Barber uses 24mm in many of their builds, but Fulltone uses 16mm in their larger enclosures. Depends on what you prefer I guess. Try both and see if it makes a difference

[/quote]For the In/Out jacks:
Do you like them at the north side of the box, or left/right sides?
If at the sides, where? Towards the top, or the middle (like many commercial production pedals)?
Do you go out of your way to leave room inside, or can they be positioned under pots, boards, etc.?[/quote]

You can see above, I like the 'north' side as you put it - the top. I do this because you can mount your pedals on a pedal board side by side this way. If having lots of pedals on a pedal board isn't important to you, it is MUCH easier to wire the jacks on the sides close to the switch. When the jacks are on the top there's a lot more wire, a little bit more complication with squeezing things in, and it can get out of hand if you're not careful. With them on the side, the problem may be that your pedal is too 'wide' to fit in that one spot on you board. Both have ups and downs. As I mentioned, if you drill carefully you can squeeze them into the space underneath (above?) the pots and have it all fit.

[/quote]For the Footswitch:
Do you like it centered, or offset?
I've noticed many builds make room for a battery between the south side of the box and the switch.
Does this always work out, or would there be any reason to move the battery (see next question) and locate the switch closer to the edge?[/quote]

I like centered when I can. On my 1590BB's I've recently taken to putting them in the right hand corner. This leaves room for a battery beside and a PCB above. It can be awkward to step on the switch if you're squeezing like I do, but I wear narrow toed shoes when I can. On 125b's I mount the switch with just enough room underneath for a battery. My only suggestion here is to be consistent. If you move the switch around on various builds it doesn't necessarily look 'right'. If I look at a pedal board of DIY pedals and the switch is in a different place I'm unsatisfied by the lack of symmetry. Of course, if that's the idea, to make art of various arrangements, then it's fine. Think about what you prefer, and then go with that every time. If it's not working, think again about it and make the switch. Two seperate looks is ok, but a different look for every pedal is silly (unless it's on purpose).

[/quote]For the Battery:
Is it always best to put it between the south side and the switch?
There appears to be room to put the battery under the pots (like the DOD pedals) any reason why it shouldn't go there?[/quote]

No it's not always best. For example, if you take a 125B and turn it sideways (Zvex style) you end up with the switch and the knobs RIGHT next to each other, prompting your settings to be messed with when you turn the pedal on. Also, in a 1590BB there's LOTS of room to have the switch in one corner and the Battery  beside it. If you put the switch ABOVE the battery, there's now empty space to either side of the switch and to either side of the Battery. This means less space for the PCB and a challenge with wiring. Of course, if you put the jacks to the sides of the switch, then you've used that space and have freed up the space 'below' you pots to mount the board... I've never put a battery below the pots, but that's because below the pots is where my jacks are (including power). One thought I have about that scheme though, is you still have to put the jacks somewhere, and you may not gain any room putting the battery there.

My last piece of advice is simply - think carefully, brainstorm, and then try it in a dry run. Grab a box, make a cardboard copy of it - same interior dimensions. Then 'drill' holes in the box and fit your parts in. Does it work? Great! Does it suck? Great! At least you learned something doing it. I probably when through 3 or 4 cardboard 125B's and maybe 5 or 6 cardboard 1590BB's before I found the drill spots I liked to use for my builds. Here's a few examples of my recent builds guts to show you what I mean:

Typical 125B build...



Floating using homemade pcb mounting pots...



Hope this helps anyone.

jacob

[Steve Mavronis]

So I've breadboarded my first effects circuit and am laying out a PC Board design. I would like some feedback from those with more experience than I on some details:

1 - how do you mount your PCBs? Standoffs? Board mounted components (switches/jacks/pots)?
2 - for board mounting a 3PDT, do you just enlarge the pad holes and use a standard switch, or an SMD 3PDT?
3 - is it worth the effort to board mount switches/jacks/pots/LEDs, or is it better just to mount all of that to the enclosure and wire it "off board"?
4 - Any general tips on component layout on a PCB? Trying to keep the board small and the traces short....hairpulling experience at times.

1 - The only component I'm found of board mounting are pots. They hold the PCB in place well instead of using separate standoffs or foam and less wires to potentially break off.
2 - My 3PDT is offboard but noting wroing with board mounting if you have the room overall.
3 - Kinda related to your first question. I think PCB mounted pots are worth it, if you have the PCB layout space to attach them. I don't like insulating foam or tape some use but that's just my personal preference.
4 - Use as big of solder pads and traces as are managable, depending of the part density involved. My first PCB used 115 mil pads and 50 mil traces. The one I'm delevoping now has twice as many parts so I have to design for vertical mounted resistors with 100 mil pads and 40 mil traces. A lot of people use very very thin traces or like to fill in empty spaces with more copper. There are pros and cons to everything.

Also, consider adding strain relief holes to the edge of your boards to loop your wire connections through so they don't bend and beak at the solder attach point. You can see them in my first build's gut picture here as well as the Alpha right angle PCB mounted pot leads poking through from the other side:

[darron]

not exactly what you need, but it gives me a chance to show off something i made yesterday:

http://www.dazatronyx.com/tour/


for switch mount boards it of course depends on the program that you are designing in. make the pads as big as you can without them shorting to each other and the donut/drill hole as tight as it can get to still get the switch through, that will give it mechanical strength...

Hi Darron,
How are you putting the negatives onto the copper clad? I don't understand what mean by lasering it on. And a tutorial on how you make the drilling jigs would be interesting.
Cheers,
Chris

that isn't very public-diy-friendly, but it's the best way that i have found if you want to do a good job. i prep the board with only steel wool, then spray paint with flat black enamel, then use a co2 laser to etch off the paint where i want it etched. most places will charge you about $60/hour for lasering and at 600dpi that sheet of boards would have taken me around 15 minutes.

the jig is a massive helper. it's 10mm acrylic that has been laser cut then wrapped around the enclosure and flooded a few times with super glue to hold it together. i strongly suggest drilling the guide holes AFTER assembly so you can be as sloppy as you like with the construction as long as it is firm in the end. the guide holes then have a brass spacer (like a nylon pcb spacer, but brass) which is chrome plated inside otherwise the acrylic will wear out really fast. brass is very strong as long as you don't abuse it. when i need to make another one i will try to photograph it as a tutorial. if you want to get one CNCed or lasered i can email you the vectors.


as you can see... there's a bit of difference between constructing pedals roughly and precisely while keeping your attitude stress-free..

[petemoore]

  I do 1-off effects, if mass producing, most of these items might matter a whole lot more.
  The board fits in the box.
  The layout is fairly logical.
  I like pots wires to go out one side [as general 1rst approach.
  I tend to avoid super-mini and super-precision that requires closer than about 1/64 [inches or anything else]...
  If I were to approach it from a mass produciton viewpoint or needed a large board to fit in a small box for some reason I'd spend more time in CADesign, looking for anything that will produce working box circuit with least #of tasks, +least # of difficult tasks.
  I like having flexible lead wires to everything offboard, it's easy to not have to figure out how much time I would or wouldn't save by making as much as possible fit to board [such as pots] in no-brainer assembly fashion [stick a pot in, forget about de-insulating or wire-length preparations, start next pot installation a few minutes earlier than if preparing the lead wires...if I were doing 50..the time savings would become very obvious once I board mounted all the pots.
  I prefer my switches having all their lugs with stranded lead wires for the same reason I prefer my pcb components soldered in: Once. Offboard wires makes it easier for me to keep the PCB Intact by not having to wrench/heat/pull on it's delicate parts. 

[EATyourGuitar]

you just have to think logically.

take it slow. I use switchcraft jacks on some projects and cheap PC mount for others. I never PCB mount my pots cause I like to drill pots and jacks first when building on perfboard. if I buy a pre-made clone PCB I will drill after I have it populated. that way I can make sure I have clearance for bigger parts on the PCB. when you wire your pots and jacks with solid wire and your not mounting a battery, the PCB isn't moving at all. I use paper to prevent shorts on through board builds. doublesided tape is also good to mount one sided PCB's to the chassis

[edvard]

A lot of this is MY OPINION and should not be taken as the only truth. It's ok if you don't like what my opinion is, but it's based on my experience with my builds over the years.
...
Hope this helps anyone.

jacob

Thanks, that helps a lot.
Usually I build with home-made enclosures bent up out of scrap sheet metal, so I make my own room for pots & switches 
Lately, I've been asked to build effects for others and would like a bit more spit & polish to them, plus I'd like to mount my own stuff in nice boxes eventually.
I've been doing the "spare lead" trick with my pots for a long time as well, and I've seen many commercial boxes 'float' boards with right-angle pots and always wondered if that was actually good practice or not.

you just have to think logically.
...

I like how you think... 
That's what I try to do, but I always end up taking too long to decide the 'best' way.
Apparently 'guitarist logic' is nowhere near the Vulcan brand.   

[tubelectron]

Hi All,

My Method of Pedal Contruction is usually "point-to-point-no-PCB" :




This is inherited from tube amp technology practice, evidently applicable to tube pedals.



Before wiring :



After wiring completed (picture turned to the left):



And everything can be removed from the box without desolder any part, for maintenance purposes (here, the HV and LV DC PSU section) :



The placement and the choice of the components is necessarily a case-to-case study...

A+!

[deadastronaut]

nice work bruno.....point to point stuff ....excellent..

one day i'll try it..not sometime soon though i think...

[Steve Mavronis]

Nice "point to point" work but IMHO I think it's a myth to believe it is any better than PCB circuit connections. Either way works but proper technique of PCB etching is an improvement. Others will disagree but that's fine. Whatever works for you individually is what matters the most.