I posted a question on another forum,that I won't mention.There's some people saying on my post that there's no audible difference between a TS808-TS-9-TS-10.Really?Some said changing the 2 resistors in the TS-9 does nothing sound wise.Anyone have any opinions on this?I've been playing guitar for almost 30 years,and I have to say there is definitely an audible difference,or am I just deaf?lol
Rewriting because I misread. ::) I dunno, I never cared enough to compare them. I love the TS circuits I've designed but never been a big fan of the store bought ones everyone raves about.
RG has of course covered this, and the issue at hand is discussed in the Output Buffer Stage section: http://www.geofex.com/article_folders/tstech/tsxtech.htm#obuffer
http://www.beavisaudio.com/projects/ScreamerLab/
^ Beavis doesn't hear a difference. Neither do I do. I put those resistors on a DPDT a while back and it really is a useless mod.
If you demo a TS9 against a TS808, either unit is like to sound different due to its components' tolerances. It's easy to attribute the difference to the output resistors, when tolerance is really the factor at play.
Quote from: FiveseveN on September 01, 2014, 07:38:15 PM
RG has of course covered this, and the issue at hand is discussed in the Output Buffer Stage section: http://www.geofex.com/article_folders/tstech/tsxtech.htm#obuffer
Well,I have known to be wrong a time or two,and this is one of those times. :icon_redface: I've read that article before,but not thoroughly.My apologies!You were correct. :icon_smile:
I have a TS that I built from the tonepad pcb. I installed the 808/9 mod switch. I can hear a difference when I flip the switch. Maybe I built mine wrong. :)
Quote from: JohnForeman on September 02, 2014, 06:07:51 AM
I have a TS that I built from the tonepad pcb. I installed the 808/9 mod switch. I can hear a difference when I flip the switch. Maybe I built mine wrong. :)
I don't know.According to R.G. Keen's site,and others,that there's no audible difference with those resistor changes.Maybe it's my brain tricking me to think that they're two different pedals(well,not really.lol) and that they'll sound different.Which makes me wonder why folks that are the leading pedal modders(i.e. analogman,keeley,etc.) even do this mod,if there's no audible difference?Not trying to ruffle feathers.Just curious.
Is there a significant audible difference in a real live-band situation?
I've never owned, our heard (up close) a "real" tubescreamer. So maybe I'm not in the position to say anything about it.
But I doubt you'll be able to say "ahaaa, that gitarist is using a ts808" or "ouch, the band plays with ts9".
I'm pretty sure that it is a trick of the brain: there is a physical difference therefore we (need to) hear a difference.
And since hearing is mostly a brain-thing...
We mostly don't play in super isolated and acoustic sterile environments as well...
But then again, maybe I'm just babbling and making myself silly :)
Everyone knows a TS808 has more mojo than a 9, that's probably why most people do the mod. However, as R.G explains the two buffers will behave a bit differently and some people might be able to hear this.
Quote from: soupbone on September 02, 2014, 06:32:28 AM
Quote from: JohnForeman on September 02, 2014, 06:07:51 AM
I have a TS that I built from the tonepad pcb. I installed the 808/9 mod switch. I can hear a difference when I flip the switch. Maybe I built mine wrong. :)
I don't know.According to R.G. Keen's site,and others,that there's no audible difference with those resistor changes.Maybe it's my brain tricking me to think that they're two different pedals(well,not really.lol) and that they'll sound different.Which makes me wonder why folks that are the leading pedal modders(i.e. analogman,keeley,etc.) even do this mod,if there's no audible difference?Not trying to ruffle feathers.Just curious.
If you keep reading:
"However, the 10K shunt resistor load on the TS808 output does have an effect on the follower's operation. An emitter follower with a resistor load is often assumed to have a very low output impedance, which is true, as long as the signal is going up. However, when the signal is going down, the transistor can only turn off, and the signal is pulled down by the net loading, DC and AC on the emitter. The 10K shunt resistor effectively halves the emitter loading on the output buffer. This does two things; trivially, it reduces the input impedance of the emitter follower; more importantly it reduces the negative going output impedance of the stage by half to about 5K. This means that the output stage can drive the following stage off about twice as hard.
"Can this account for the admittedly very subtle audible differences between the TS 9 and 808? It pretty much has to, as the operating current for both stages is the same, the series resistance is only trivially different compared to the forward biased input impedance of a triode grid (10's of K's for the typical duotriode input), and the voltage divider ratio difference between 100/10K and 470/100K is 0.990099 versus 0.995322, an inaudible amplitude difference. "
But RG assumes that the 808 and 9 sound different, even if it's a subtle difference. I hear no difference, not even a subtle one, when the those two resistors are placed on a switch and everything else in the circuit is kept the same. Now I haven't gone around trying it with various amps, but the input impedance of your amp might be a factor. I used to have some Boss pedals with crappy tone sucking buffers that only tone sucked in front of cheap SS amps. Their buffers were transparent in front of nicer tube amps.
To get a difference you probably need to max the volume of the pedal and hit it with a loud signal. If you get a large enough signal going into the buffers the TS9 one will distort on the negative half of the signal before the 808 one. I don't know how easy it is to get this to happen and even if you do I don't know how easy it is to hear it.
I've learned a lot of stuff from this post.Good stuff fellers!
Quote from: mremic01 on September 02, 2014, 10:42:06 AM
"Can this account for the admittedly very subtle audible differences between the TS 9 and 808? It pretty much has to, as the operating current for both stages is the same, the series resistance is only trivially different compared to the forward biased input impedance of a triode grid (10's of K's for the typical duotriode input), and the voltage divider ratio difference between 100/10K and 470/100K is 0.990099 versus 0.995322, an inaudible amplitude difference. "
But RG assumes that the 808 and 9 sound different, even if it's a subtle difference.
I'm not sure that R.G. is stating that the two pedals sound different, just that those two components are the only thing that could account for any tonal difference that might be present.
I've had a number of TS9s, TS808s, and a TS7 on my bench. My own TS808 is one I built from a kit and is true bypass. I've never heard a difference between any of them. I suspect that any audible difference (assuming same guitar, same player, same amp, etc) is due to component tolerances - especially the pots, and a bit of imagination.
Is it just me, or does it seem like most of the folks who make claims about the great tonal differences are usually trying to sell you something?
I suspect we are basically talking about an output impedance thing, where the sound of the TS is smoothed out by cable capacitance taking out any fizz. IN other words, loading under certain particular circumstances. If this was true, then one would predict that a 9 and 808 would sound a little different if you were running a 25ft cable from the pedal to our amp, and feeding a TS of either type directly to another on your boad pedal with a high input impedance (e.g., a Super Hard-On or similar) would not be easily differentiable.
It really is more evident depending on how you use the TS pedals... If you use a TS to tighten the low end attack and and give a little extra boost/sustain in front of a medium or high gain amp then you should be able to hear the difference between the different versions. Typically this is done by turning the level anywhere from 1/2 to all the way up and the gain between 0 and 2. This way it just overdrive the hell out of the amp input and gives you a razor sharp attack when using a high gain amp.
Now, if you are using it for your main source of distortion you would probably have the gain turned up 3/4 ot the way and the level backed off to a low setting... This way sounds different and reacts totally different. In this way you may not notice a big difference between one TS or another... or maybe you will? Depends on the style of playing and of course, your ears. For me the TS808 or close variant is my choice but the TS9 is also very good...
Let's use the power of Math! (Click the thumbnails to embiggen.)
(http://xonedesign.ro/publik/tsout_level_t.jpg) (http://xonedesign.ro/publik/tsout_level.png)
And into a typical tube amp input, even with ridiculous cable capacitance:
(http://xonedesign.ro/publik/tsout_load_t.jpg) (http://xonedesign.ro/publik/tsout_load.png)
Is there a difference? Sure, a .1 dB difference! If a human can hear that then ESP is real.
What about the output impedance? It's around 1.2 K (in the 808) vs. 1.7 K. Even if you were plugging it into a Fuzz Face for some reason, the difference is still sub-dB.
Then assuming there IS an audible difference, under some unspecified set of circumstances, maybe its a component-tolerance related thing.
As I like to point out, many folks will make comparisons between different issues of a given pedal, or different manufacturers of the identical design, using only one pedal to represent every instance of that issue or manufacturer. That's a thin branch to walk out on.
Quote from: Mark Hammer on September 03, 2014, 10:01:19 AM
Then assuming there IS an audible difference, under some unspecified set of circumstances, maybe its a component-tolerance related thing.
As I like to point out, many folks will make comparisons between different issues of a given pedal, or different manufacturers of the identical design, using only one pedal to represent every instance of that issue or manufacturer. That's a thin branch to walk out on.
Not to mention, majority of comparisons are made solely by ear with long intervals between each test. (It's not uncommon that folks spend several minutes or even hours making modifications before A/B'ing the "B" after "A". Or something along those lines). This practically ensures that each individual will have different results, which are mostly just subjective preferences based on evaluating something we no longer even remember accurately.
And if the
audible differences are "subtle" then do keep in mind that you better not...
- move away one inch from your listening position
- tilt your head
- have any kind of stress, muscle tension in the neck area and so on
- have time delays longer than few seconds between A/B'ing
- etc.
...otherwise you already introduce large enough differences to render any evaluation by ear useless. Ears + brain processing what we hear is usually the very best instrument to use when you want totally inconsistent results. ...or just any result of your preference. Believe firmly enough and the brain will make sure you will hear whatever you want to hear.
Quoteunder some unspecified set of circumstances
I don't see how that couldn't be the case. Of the number of guitarists using TS's, and their settings, config, gear and even perception of how it should be used, the combinations are going to be incredibly enormous if not potentially infinite. Who knows under which of those circumstances something shows up on the audial radar. That of course doesn't cover the OCD types who say they can hear the difference using any combination. Just pointing out there could be some who really do and it's based entirely on how they use it.
OT but just to show how much the communication of it all could come into play. I sold a fuzz I built to a friend on Saturday, I told him many times. Make sure you plug your guitar directly into this box, it and the guitar sort of become the same circuit (in guitar player lingo) and it will NOT sound like it does now if you do not do that.
He calls Sunday... "This thing is broken, it sounds nothing like it did in your studio yesterday". I said did you plug your guitar directly into it like I showed you?" He exclaimed and I quote:
"Yes, I did exactly that, I placed it right after my volume pedal". :icon_rolleyes:
Well that's just it. The number of possible permutations and combinations IS darn near infinite. And when players make a claim about a pedal without specifying what the circumstances were when that putative difference was heard, AND the claim hits the internet, it gets attributed to any and all sets of circumstances.
Quote from: FiveseveN on September 03, 2014, 08:02:57 AM
Let's use the power of Math! (Click the thumbnails to embiggen.)
Simulate the same circuits using transient response and increase the input signal until until they clip, there is an obvious difference. Whether or not this happens in practical use is another question.
Is there a link to a double blind study somewhere?
Oh yeah....there's not....one's never been done.
From a big picture perspective, I don't think it would even matter if there were a correct blind test, measurement whatever. IOW, humans want perfect rules, final answers, closure, black and white results and inescapable conclusions and hard unbreakable rules. The best thing anyone can ever possibly do is be more confident in their playing than their devices and simply not worry about having a final yes/no answer. It's part of our DNA but as I get older, I'm beginning to consider that both facts and confirmation bias play their creative parts in getting things done and being human. Anyone looking for a final judgment with zero exceptions for anything involving human senses is going to often chase things with no end.
In other words, I think it's good to not chase confirmation bias as fact but I also think its good to not be too Spock like in life.
Quote from: slacker on September 03, 2014, 12:20:04 PM
Whether or not this happens in practical use is another question.
So what's the point then? :icon_biggrin: I mean we could simulate it with 100 V input, but wouldn't it be more relevant to at least tentatively agree on what's likely to happen in practical use first? And then we'll be stuck on the issue of how much harmonic distortion can a human detect, partiucularly when it's even order
and on top of a whole lot more distortion to begin with.
Quote from: karbomusic on September 03, 2014, 12:27:37 PM
I'm beginning to consider that both facts and confirmation bias play their creative parts in getting things done and being human.
Only what
gets done is a general decline in critical thinking skills and its inevitable outcome: gullible people get separated from their money. I mean myths are cool and all, until you start to take them seriously.
Quote
Only what gets done is a general decline in critical thinking skills and its inevitable outcome: gullible people get separated from their money. I mean myths are cool and all, until you start to take them seriously.
People tend to have that fear of decline but I've never actually seen a true decline (or one that actually, really and truly matters) and I've never seen a guy in the soup line saying "it was the tube screamer purchase that took me down"; crack maybe. :)
There is a certain percentage who are going do it and always have and certain people that are going to be gullible no matter what you do. I'll posit some of them actually LIKE not knowing and the fun of talking about it true or not. I'm big on edumacation but no one is going to save anyone by proving 2 resistors in a TS make or don't make some minute difference nor is the world going to suddenly be saved from a decline to the likes of the movie Idiocracy. The person who paid top dollar for it would do it anyway and if that makes them extremely happy, then great. Both that person and the person who can't sleep because someone somewhere was told wrong should consider that far more important things abound.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not afraid to call someone out on BS, do it all the time. Just saying, "two resistors and a tube screamer" would make a better song title than debate.
Quote from: FiveseveN on September 03, 2014, 12:33:13 PM
Quote from: slacker on September 03, 2014, 12:20:04 PM
Whether or not this happens in practical use is another question.
So what's the point then? :icon_biggrin:
Probably none :) it would be easy enough for someone who claims to hear a difference to hook up a scope and see if there's at least any measurable difference though. Like you say, even if you can measure it doesn't mean you can hear it.
As I see it there are two conflicting concepts involved:
1. It's bad to sell bullsh*t.
2. You can't put a price on peace of mind or pleasure, it's decidedly subjective.
The free market's answer to this paradox is of course to provide plenty of varied products so people on both ends of the spectrum and everywhere in between can be satisfied. That's why we have $30 tube screamers and $1200 tube screamers.
And just as well there are two answers to the original question (is there a perceptible difference between the models?), depending on how you look at it:
1. Under normal circumstances, no*.
2. If you want to hear it (even unconsciously), you will.
The first answer must always include an asterisk, a caveat, a disclaimer, because
a. As was pointed out, "a TS808" and "this TS808" are different things. If we are comparing the models, we refer to some idealized form of an effect, i.e. what is written on the schematic. If we are comparing the units, one would expect some difference due to component tolerance, which may very well swamp what we're trying to measure.
b. As was also mentioned, we can contrive some conditions where even the most minute difference can become significant. Can those conditions ever arise "in the wild"? Well, it's not impossible; guitarists do strange things all the time.
The second answer is completely independent from the 1st, that is you're gonna hear it whether it's objectively there or not.
Since related issues come up now and again, maybe a (sticky) thread with resources on cognitive biases, audio memory, audiometry, experimental methodology etc. would be welcome. So if someone wants to make a useful comparison he/she'll at least know what the common pitfalls are and prepare to avoid them.
I like the way the TS-808 looks better, therefore it sounds better.
End of discussion, you guys don't need to discuss this anymore because I have weighed in on the subject and the 808 definitely looks cooler.
Actually, I just gave away my TS-9 in a trade where I received 3 tube mics, 3 SM57s, and a bunch of mic stands. Anybody want 3 tube mics, 3 SM57s, and a bunch of mic stands for your 808?
I know this topic has been hashed out on the interwebs, but to the original posts question, here is an interesting post at TDPRI:
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/stomp-box/273322-ts9-vs-ts808-whats-difference.html (http://www.tdpri.com/forum/stomp-box/273322-ts9-vs-ts808-whats-difference.html)
I frankly don't think the output buffer differences would affect the sound to an appreciable degree. However, the op amp chip AND the clipping diodes certainly would. In particular, it is suggested that the TS808 had clipping diodes with higher forward voltage that the TS9. Given most TS clones these days give you 1001 options for clipping diodes, there could certainly be sound differences if Ibanez changed diodes. Thoughts?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix3esykv9YI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtiQMimHtnY
Quote from: HOTTUBES on September 06, 2014, 12:30:00 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix3esykv9YI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtiQMimHtnY
But both of those videos are using two separate pedals. Not one pedal with only the components in question changed.
And they are neither controlled nor blind. One of them is captured with a friggin camera mic, from a mile away! See, this is why we need that thread I was talking about.
Quote from: Frank_NH on September 04, 2014, 03:37:53 PM
I frankly don't think the output buffer differences would affect the sound to an appreciable degree. However, the op amp chip AND the clipping diodes certainly would. In particular, it is suggested that the TS808 had clipping diodes with higher forward voltage that the TS9. Given most TS clones these days give you 1001 options for clipping diodes, there could certainly be sound differences if Ibanez changed diodes. Thoughts?
I know the op amp issue has been cussed, discussed, and theorized upon here by many smarter than me, but I've never seen any hard data presented. Here is the closest thing I think I've seen to any kind of data regarding the op amp's effect on tone: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpTv2jAree8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpTv2jAree8)
I've heard the diode differences being mentioned, which could well account for a difference in tone, but I don't recall any hard numbers except by the fellow in the discussion on the TDPRI forum. I recall one discussion I read where the person said the diodes you want are "the ones with the blue stripe". I don't recall if there were any other specs or type numbers mentioned, but I do recall being struck by the emphasis on a blue stripe.
Quote from: Electron Tornado on September 12, 2014, 03:09:38 PM
I recall one discussion I read where the person said the diodes you want are "the ones with the blue stripe". I don't recall if there were any other specs or type numbers mentioned, but I do recall being struck by the emphasis on a blue stripe.
If I were a manufacturer... "OK guys, from this moment forward, every diode gets a blue stripe, make it happen". :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: karbomusic on September 12, 2014, 03:37:15 PM
Quote from: Electron Tornado on September 12, 2014, 03:09:38 PM
I recall one discussion I read where the person said the diodes you want are "the ones with the blue stripe". I don't recall if there were any other specs or type numbers mentioned, but I do recall being struck by the emphasis on a blue stripe.
If I were a manufacturer... "OK guys, from this moment forward, every diode gets a blue stripe, make it happen". :icon_mrgreen:
Actually, I'm a bit surprised that everybody selling their "improved" version of the Tube Screamer, or selling mods wasn't hyping their products with "Yes, we only use diodes with the coveted blue stripe." I guess eveyone was focused on squeezing all they could out of the hype surrounding the op amp.