I finally took the plunge, and etched my first PCB. Then discovered that local hardware stores don't sell drill bits small enough... ;D Got some en route now. Looking forward to the next stage of this project.
(http://www.timcallender.com/photodump/firstEtchRebote.jpg)
Better than my first except for the pad holes. You may have issues drilling some of them. What method did you use? I am going to guess a clothes iron and magazine paper. Keep up the good work!
Fun pedal!
Check the lower left corner for solder bridges, 10x jewelers loupe is indispensable for that and also for reading the tiny print on parts.
Nice! What transfer method did you use? If an iron/heat and laser printer toner, it looks like it was a little too hot causing the toner to melt instead of only fusing over. There is a sweet spot between hot enough to fuse and cool enough not to melt, again assuming that is the method you used.
Thanks for the comments, everyone!
I used the toner transfer method: I had the circuit printed on a transparency sheet at Kinkos/Fed Ed Office/Whatever and then hit it with an iron. This transfer is actually my third attempt; the heat was dialed in the best I could achieve. I think next time I'll try backing off the heat just a hair. To that point - I applied heat for about five minutes or so. Would you advise lower heat and longer time?
davent, I used the magnifying glass on my "third hand" to check the traces. That particular corner needed some scraping with an X-Acto blade. Otherwise, I think I'm okay. I'll know more once I get it populated...
Quote from: graylensman on May 04, 2015, 03:18:07 PM
I used the toner transfer method: I had the circuit printed on a transparency sheet at Kinkos/Fed Ed Office/Whatever and then hit it with an iron. This transfer is actually my third attempt; the heat was dialed in the best I could achieve. I think next time I'll try backing off the heat just a hair. To that point - I applied heat for about five minutes or so. Would you advise lower heat and longer time?
You can usually tell too hot by the smudging (that's what I thought I noticed in yours) but you have to just keep trying different settings until you find the one that works for you because it is so dependent on things such as what the toner is being transferred from... PnP, regular transparency, water release paper, photo paper etc. as well as the toner brand because all of them insulate the toner by various amounts and toner fuse points vary... and the amount of pressure comes into play as well. I've been using a t-shirt press as of late and it looks like with press and peel the ideal temp is going to fall somewhere around 260-266F but I'm still experimenting.
Good job though, I'm sure you are excited because I have found making PCBs much less of a headache (for me personally) than Vero/Perf etc. Less prone to error as well as faster, YMMV of course but I'm now somewhat addicted to making my own PCBs. :)
I find the glossy laser jet HP presentation paper (recommended in another thread on this forum) works better than a transparency as the toner tends to smudge with the transparency and it is more prone to moving around while the presentation paper stays in place.
Quote from: mattoverse on May 04, 2015, 03:56:57 PM
I find the glossy laser jet HP presentation paper (recommended in another thread on this forum) works better than a transparency as the toner tends to smudge with the transparency and it is more prone to moving around while the presentation paper stays in place.
Agreed, while I have never used transparancies, I have used photo paper and magazine paper. Magazine paper worked better for me out of those two. However, the hp presentation paper is what I use now, along with my cheap but modded laminator.
1) Nice work for a first stab! Good feeling, eh?
2) As others have noted, there are a couple of places where you might have some existing shorts, or be asking for them when solder gets applied. MIght be useful to get out your X-Acto blade and scrape between the pads that are too close.
3) YMMV, but while you're waiting for the bits, you may want to tin the board. Personally, I dab some liquid flux on a Q-tip or other budget cotton-tipped applicator, and apply a light coat to the whole board. If you have some solder wick - the slightly wider type - put some solder on it, and use your hot iron to slide it around the pads, leaving a thin film of solder everywhere. Then, use either flux remover, or methyl hydrate to take the excess flux off, and give a light buff with superfine steel wool or a finer 3M pad of some kind.
The tinned board will be in good shape for a while. A bare copper board, if ignored for a couple of weeks, can easily tarnish and be hard to solder to.
Right on! I'm all for pcb's, great work!!!
Quoteif ignored for a couple of weeks, can easily tarnish and be hard to solder to.
With my hands I think it starts tarnishing within a couple hours LOL. :icon_mrgreen: Lately, as soon as I remove the toner and expose the fresh copper I hit it with a very thin coat of spray lacquer which burns through very easily when soldering and acts as a thin solder mask preventing those shorts that seem to want to occur. I have some liquid tin coming but I'll still use the lacquer as a solder mask because it has worked out so well.
Quote from: karbomusic on May 04, 2015, 05:28:51 PM
Quoteif ignored for a couple of weeks, can easily tarnish and be hard to solder to.
With my hands I think it starts tarnishing within a couple hours LOL. :icon_mrgreen: Lately, as soon as I remove the toner and expose the fresh copper I hit it with a very thin coat of spray lacquer which burns through very easily when soldering and acts as a thin solder mask preventing those shorts that seem to want to occur. I have some liquid tin coming but I'll still use the lacquer as a solder mask because it has worked out so well.
Your lacquer method is far superior to Liquid Tin. Your window of opportunity from liquid tinning to needing to redo is far to short in my world where as the lacquer's effect has never been diminished even on boards that have been collecting dust for years. Solder with no problems.
dave
I've got some spray polyurethane. Will that work as well as the lacquer?
Yeah, it is a good feeling. I feel like I've taken another step forward in my DIY skills. I'm really excited that it turned out so well (so far!) and looking forward to getting that sucker drilled. Hey, if I'm successful with etching boards, who knows - maybe I'll start etching enclosures!
> some spray polyurethane.
Ugh. I wouldn't put a hot iron on that with a 10 foot pole. Urethane is not nice when it breaks-down. And it usually goes on thick.
Lacquers (there are many sorts) are usually "thin" so less smoke-bomb.
It may be hard to find, but spray *shellac* will burn-off E-Z with mild fumes (generally accepted as safe).
Quote from: PRR on May 05, 2015, 12:32:10 AM
Ugh. I wouldn't put a hot iron on that with a 10 foot pole. Urethane is not nice when it breaks-down. And it usually goes on thick.
Many polyurethanes give off toluene diisocyanate when heated. I was banished to a fume cupboard to wind coils when we were using PU enamelled wire.
david
Quote from: PRR on May 05, 2015, 12:32:10 AM
Ugh. I wouldn't put a hot iron on that with a 10 foot pole.
This is why I asked rather than proceeded. Thanks as always, People Smarter Than Me! ;)
Quote from: PRR on May 05, 2015, 12:32:10 AM
> some spray polyurethane.
Ugh. I wouldn't put a hot iron on that with a 10 foot pole. Urethane is not nice when it breaks-down. And it usually goes on thick.
Lacquers (there are many sorts) are usually "thin" so less smoke-bomb.
It may be hard to find, but spray *shellac* will burn-off E-Z with mild fumes (generally accepted as safe).
Zinsser, Bullseye has shellac in a spray can, should be easy to track down.
> Zinsser, Bullseye
You are right. "Stain Blocker" to cover sap-pockets in pine before you paint is usually shellac base. It may be dyed white to help hide wood stain under light paint, but I think it is fine.
EDIT-- much of Zinsser's current line is "water-base", I guess to avoid VOC limits.
Zinsser's "B-I-N Shellac Base Primer" says what it says, but the MDS shows a lot of acetone as well as the expected ethanol (shellac solvent), 10% Titanium Dioxide (white dust), 5% Mica! That will break-up or cover sap-stains one way or another, but seems like a lot of crap for our purposes.
Simple shellac spray used to be available in Art Supply stores. I could probably find it over on arty-island. Problem is that it goes bad faster than most other sprays, and does not sell well, so either the store stops stocking it or you get a can of shellac-gum.
Straight shellac is still common in paint aisles. A pint diluted 50:50 and put on with a brush would do hundreds of PCBs, but it goes bad in the can in a year.
Specialty wood-work stores might still carry shellac flakes, which keep well until dissolved. Rockler has it, also some specialist websites. A "1 pound cut" would be ample and that's an ounce of flakes in a cup of hi-test moonshine (190 proof; strong denatured avoids paying the whiskey tax). So Rockler's small bag would make nine 1-cup batches and last you for years.
I use the Bullseye Primer/Sealer after etching primer on enclosures but they do have unpigmented shellac in a spray can as well.
http://www.amazon.com/Rust-Oleum-Zinsser-408-Bulls-Shellac/dp/B0009X8HWG
Quote from: karbomusic on May 04, 2015, 03:28:52 PM
Quote from: graylensman on May 04, 2015, 03:18:07 PM
I used the toner transfer method: I had the circuit printed on a transparency sheet at Kinkos/Fed Ed Office/Whatever and then hit it with an iron. This transfer is actually my third attempt; the heat was dialed in the best I could achieve. I think next time I'll try backing off the heat just a hair. To that point - I applied heat for about five minutes or so. Would you advise lower heat and longer time?
You can usually tell too hot by the smudging (that's what I thought I noticed in yours) but you have to just keep trying different settings until you find the one that works for you because it is so dependent on things such as what the toner is being transferred from... PnP, regular transparency, water release paper, photo paper etc. as well as the toner brand because all of them insulate the toner by various amounts and toner fuse points vary... and the amount of pressure comes into play as well. I've been using a t-shirt press as of late and it looks like with press and peel the ideal temp is going to fall somewhere around 260-266F but I'm still experimenting.
Good job though, I'm sure you are excited because I have found making PCBs much less of a headache (for me personally) than Vero/Perf etc. Less prone to error as well as faster, YMMV of course but I'm now somewhat addicted to making my own PCBs. :)
I keep my iron on maximum heat.
Pressure and timing are far more critical factors IMO when doing thermal transfer.Higher temperatures are better than lower temperatures, again IMO.
I read numerous tutorials on doing thermal transfer and pretty much all of them had flaws (IMO) before tackling it myself.
Regardless, OP, thats a pretty good job for a first try.
Next time, try increasing the heat, and using less pressure.
from the looks of it, you used more pressure than was necessary.
You just have to keep a close eye on things.
And practice, practice, practice.
I did these last week...
(For some reason, the full size pictures aren't showing up. think Photobucket is being flaky again)
Can ANYONE see either of these or maybe its just my connection is shit today?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/CodeMonk/Builds/Caerbannog/S-System/FTM-TB-SS_Side_B_100_zpsbsc35nvm.gif)
Now they are showing up.
I guess for so reason those other pictures didn't want to show up all the way.
They still don't even though I reset the router and the modem.
Showing up fine here, look real good!
dave
Quote from: CodeMonk on May 05, 2015, 06:57:14 PM
I keep my iron on maximum heat.
Pressure and timing are far more critical factors IMO when doing thermal transfer.
I wonder if that is related to being an iron and that the iron's net heat that gets to the PnP isn't as hot as it measures. If the temp is right, I would think available timing is extended quite a bit but if it isn't or in a less controlled scenario has to make up for the excessive heat; however I would agree on too much pressure also playing a part (need to test more, yay!). I had done some slightly more controlled testing with a t-shirt press and the below occurs somewhere over and above 300F. It stopped doing that when I backed the heat down to 265ish. It isn't wrinkled, it's mushed from melting instead of just transferring. AFAIK, there is a fusing temp and a melting temp where the latter is higher than the former and the goal is to stay in between those two.
(http://i.imgur.com/hhyFLL0.png)
Granted, I was never able to get it that bad with an iron but I can see the effect to a smaller degree in some of my older boards. In the interest of academia I'll go back and do some more testing because it sounds like fun. ;D
Your boards look
great btw, here are a few I of the ones from previous testing and getting (what I think) is good heat and even pressure...
(http://i.imgur.com/aXC8wNW.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/wfuozFG.png)
I cheated on this one, it's a photoresist etch...
(http://i.imgur.com/uZYXJyU.png)
CodeMonk, thanks for the kind words. Your photos are quite inspirational - I have a goal, now, to get crisp etches like y'alls. As CodeMonk observed, I did lean into the iron. I'm still tickled pink that I got a useable result.
On a slightly off-topic direction, I see circuit layouts that have fine traces, some with "fatter" areas, and like some of karbomusic's examples, just enough copper etched away around the traces. Is there any advantage to these techniques? Or is it just a matter of style or taste?
karbonmusic, you've experienced the joy that is photoresist etching and yet you still toy with toner transfrer, that's masochistic!
graylensman; Less copper to etch off, more boards etched per volume of etchant and should result in a quicker etch.
Quote from: davent on May 05, 2015, 10:16:29 PM
karbonmusic, you've experienced the joy that is photoresist etching and yet you still toy with toner transfrer, that's masochistic!
Less copper to etch off, more boards etched per volume of etchant and should result in a quicker etch.
I was so excited that my dreams of PCB domination were going to reveal themselves as realities when I did the first photo etch. :icon_mrgreen: They didn't... Like everything, it has its own challenges (I'm sure this is old news to you guys). Printing on transparencies is tricky (for this purpose) and I typically need to stack a couple of them. The resist is much more fragile. For example if I use the sponge method for etching, any foreign matter will scratch the resist in spots while etching but I can scrub away on toner. The reason that matters is because normal etching by soaking and agitating might take me 30 minutes, with a sponge, it's more like 3 minutes.
I do really like it though, if I can get the transparencies printing better and back to sponging, I'll probably keep doing it because once the transparency is printed, I can keep using it over and over etc.
Quote from: graylensman on May 05, 2015, 10:08:39 PM
I'm still tickled pink that I got a useable result.
You should be, you did good and there is something about pulling it off and making a working circuit that just feels good. ;D
Quote
On a slightly off-topic direction, I see circuit layouts that have fine traces, some with "fatter" areas, and like some of karbomusic's examples, just enough copper etched away around the traces. Is there any advantage to these techniques? Or is it just a matter of style or taste?
It's called a ground plane. I must admit, my use of it is related to being lazy and liking the way it looks (others know much more about the potential electronic downsides, or lack of when ground planes than I do). It's faster and easier to use a ground plane than it is to trace them individually. For me anyway. It also keeps all that extra copper out of my etchant.
Quote from: graylensman on May 05, 2015, 10:08:39 PM
CodeMonk, thanks for the kind words. Your photos are quite inspirational - I have a goal, now, to get crisp etches like y'alls. As CodeMonk observed, I did lean into the iron. I'm still tickled pink that I got a useable result.
On a slightly off-topic direction, I see circuit layouts that have fine traces, some with "fatter" areas, and like some of karbomusic's examples, just enough copper etched away around the traces. Is there any advantage to these techniques? Or is it just a matter of style or taste?
It takes practice.
I use very little pressure and it only took maybe 2 minutes with the iron on the smaller boards and maybe 3 minutes or so with the larger boards.
I don't use much more pressure than the weight of the iron itself, maybe a few pounds of pressure.
Oh, and I use an iron I got at Walmart for like $4.
And like I said, it takes practice to figure out what method works best for you.
Still, I need to work on the ground plane sections a little better. I still haven't gotten those down quite right yet.
Its taken me a long time to get to where I am today and still, its not always good enough.
BTW, this is the other side of those boards.
Yes, they are double sided and thats a whole 'mother nightmare to deal with.
Figuring out a method to make sure the holes are perfectly lined up took a lot of testing with a lot of different methods, and ruining a bunch of copper clad before I was satisfied with the results.
And I still screwed up drilling some of the holes by not centering the bit perfectly.
My eyes aren't as good as they used to be.
But I'm working on some kind of magnification rig for that.
Yeah I know someone will suggest a USB microscope, but I'm a bit broke and have to make do with what I can dig up around the house.
Maybe someday though :)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/CodeMonk/Builds/Caerbannog/S-System/FTM-TB-SS_Side_A_100_zpsraoccrzs.gif)
If you get a chance... for diminished eyesight i went with a $13 usb endoscope (cheapest i found), free webcam software and free crosshair software. The Dremel/drillpress stand and full drillpress i already had. The tricky bit was rigging the endoscope but i know you'd have no problems finding a solution for that.
(http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc305/davent/IMG_5636_zps5fa00d8e.jpg)
(http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc305/davent/IMG_5634_zpsb5864728.jpg)
Quote from: davent on May 06, 2015, 11:38:55 AM
If you get a chance... for diminished eyesight i went with a $13 usb endoscope (cheapest i found), free webcam software and free crosshair software. The Dremel/drillpress stand and full drillpress i already had. The tricky bit was rigging the endoscope but i know you'd have no problems finding a solution for that.
I may end up getting and endoscope or USB microscope at some point.
I did get lucky at a casino last week, but I'm saving some of that money to get some powder coating and silk screening done on some enclosures.
Depending on how much is left will determine what route I take.
I REALLY do like that cross hair feature. Thats a MUST HAVE as far as I am concerned.
In the meantime, I picked these up at Harbor freight for about $5.
(Click on link for Harbor Freight page)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/CodeMonk/Workshop/Tools/Headlamp_PreMod_zpstauidfna.gif) (http://www.harborfreight.com/magnifier-head-strap-with-lights-38896.html)
While they work ok, they could be better.
The eye loop part magnifies it REALLY good.
The down side to that is I have to get my face about 3 inches away from a drill bit that is spinning at 3000RPM. I'm not real comfortable with doing that.
So I removed the eye loop piece.
Then I set one of my drilled PCB's down on the bench, put the head piece on, and stuck a pencil in the hole where the eye loop mounted and moved the eye loop down the pencil until I got a sharp and clear image.
The distance was about 156mm.
So, this is my mod, a small wood dowel and a 4x5/8 wood screw. Total cost for the mod, under $3:(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/CodeMonk/Workshop/Tools/Headlamp_PostMod_zpseirhiqmh.gif)
I haven't had a chance to try it out yet, but probably will sometime in the next week or so.
So, I finally got the drill bits in... and discovered the collet on my Dremel was too big. Fortunately, Lowe's had the right size on sale. Went merrily to the task of drilling out the board. I used the magnifying glass on my "extra hands" unit to see. I think I did a very good job, with only a few off-center holes.
I began to collect the components to build, and to my utter disappointment discovered that I had failed to order the 78L05 IC. :icon_frown: So, looks like another two weeks before I actually get to building this sucker.
Quote from: graylensman on May 10, 2015, 10:55:11 PM
So, I finally got the drill bits in... and discovered the collet on my Dremel was too big.
These come in pretty handy with our sort of work... :)
http://www.amazon.com/Dremel-4486-MultiPro-Keyless-Chuck/dp/B0000302ZV
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31wafoii6gL.jpg)