Im wanting to fab a board for a 1590B enclosure, and try for the first time having board mounted input/output jacks.
I currently have a large supply of Cliff jacks which ive been using for a while on my builds.
But when i use them I have always had to cut the plastic tip ends off and thread the outer plastic circular input section through the drilled enclosure, in order to fit
http://www.cliffuk.co.uk/products/jacksockets/S4.pdf
(https://s5.postimg.org/gqskubaiv/Screen_Hunter_02_Mar._12_20.39.jpg)
CL13335U S4A/BBB PC-C stereo switched jack socket. PC mount C.
(https://s5.postimg.org/v9zpvpvxz/Screen_Hunter_03_Mar._12_20.39.jpg)
now ive come across a few examples online on what im trying to achieve.
Im assuming that once the external nut and washers are removed the board can be removed freely from the enclosure?
most of these examples seem to use Neutrik Jacks.
Do i need to change to Neutrik Jacks to achieve this?
(https://s5.postimg.org/6w1fnl6fb/Screen_Hunter_07_Mar._12_20.55.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.org/6ja1hdtaf/Screen_Hunter_06_Mar._12_20.54.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.org/fd0xynvqf/Screen_Hunter_04_Mar._12_20.41.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.org/w0sg15is7/2013-01-25-16.56.53.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.org/oxkklj5mv/dolmen_NOSinside-2.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.org/52yizft07/blues_pro2.jpg)
where / how do i place the jack in "Eagle" in order for it work properly? on the internal dotted line? middle edge straight line???
(https://s5.postimg.org/n5rlqpel3/Screen_Hunter_05_Mar._12_20.49.jpg)
Surely someone here knows what Im dribbling about!!
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I wouldn't trust PCB mounted jacks..
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There is nothing wrong with PCB mounted jacks as long as the PCB is designed to fit the jacks and enclosure correctly, what needs to be correct is the positioning of the jacks on the PCB if there is too much clearance from the sides of the enclosure then when the nut is tightened into the jack socket it will pull on the socket and can stress the pcb joints. When the fit is nice and snug they work perfectly reliable, most real manufacturers use PCB mounted Jacks so if they were not reliable they would have millions of returned products.
It can take a little bit of practice or real measuring to get the PCB/jack spacing correct as some of the readily available CAD footprints may slightly differ from the sizes of the jacks you buy. It is best to either make your own footprint from the datasheet for the part or take measuerement and adjust to the parts pattern/footprint.
Also remember that the enclosure you are using will have a tapered inside edge which will have a smaller dimension the closer to the top surface so you need to know the measurements at the point of the jacks centre line in the enclosure.
I use the Rean jacks made by Neutrik.
Quote from: Ice-9 on March 12, 2018, 10:06:59 AM
There is nothing wrong with PCB mounted jacks as long as the PCB is designed to fit the jacks and enclosure correctly, what needs to be correct is the positioning of the jacks on the PCB if there is too much clearance from the sides of the enclosure then when the nut is tightened into the jack socket it will pull on the socket and can stress the pcb joints. When the fit is nice and snug they work perfectly reliable, most real manufacturers use PCB mounted Jacks so if they were not reliable they would have millions of returned products.
It can take a little bit of practice or real measuring to get the PCB/jack spacing correct as some of the readily available CAD footprints may slightly differ from the sizes of the jacks you buy. It is best to either make your own footprint from the datasheet for the part or take measuerement and adjust to the parts pattern/footprint.
Also remember that the enclosure you are using will have a tapered inside edge which will have a smaller dimension the closer to the top surface so you need to know the measurements at the point of the jacks centre line in the enclosure.
I use the Rean jacks made by Neutrik.
Take note of that first paragraph - the fit has to be near perfect to avoid problems. That level of perfection is easily manufactured but for me at least out of the realm of diy possible. It's the enclosure that is the main problem - the angled sidewalls create a twisting effect that can't be avoided without angled shims or a modification to the enclosure wall. I don't recommend PCB mounted jack's on opposite sides of the board with angled sidewalls.
Quote from: GGBB on March 12, 2018, 03:57:53 PM
Take note of that first paragraph - the fit has to be near perfect to avoid problems. That level of perfection is easily manufactured but for me at least out of the realm of diy possible. It's the enclosure that is the main problem - the angled sidewalls create a twisting effect that can't be avoided without angled shims or a modification to the enclosure wall. I don't recommend PCB mounted jack's on opposite sides of the board with angled sidewalls.
How near is "near perfect"? It's clearly within the realm of possibility, since it's so widely done. If you're getting a PCB manufactured, all you need to know is the relevant dimension - it isn't hard, but perhaps it might take a couple of shots. Once you know, you're there, and there's nothing to it.
I used to design firmware for a well-known boutique builder who did pedals this way - no problems with any of theirs, and I saw several orototypes. They also fitted board-mounted pots. I like the style since it reduces off board wiring (one of the biggest points of failure) to the minimum.
Tom
I've read you avoid an issue with the angled sidewalls of the enclosure by soldering the jacks to the pcb after the jacks are mounted to the enclosure. Mount the jacks to the enclosure, drop the accurately fitted pcb onto the jacks, solder.
In all the examples pictured the jacks on the top of the board, so no issues soldering.
dave
Yeah, that's a good idea. You could design a jack footprint with slightly slot-shaped (or over-sized) holes too, so that you'd got a little bit of wiggle room if you wanted.
T.
QuoteYeah, that's a good idea. You could design a jack footprint with slightly slot-shaped (or over-sized) holes too, so that you'd got a little bit of wiggle room if you wanted.
QuoteI've read you avoid an issue with the angled sidewalls of the enclosure by soldering the jacks to the pcb after the jacks are mounted to the enclosure. Mount the jacks to the enclosure, drop the accurately fitted pcb onto the jacks, solder.
In all the examples pictured the jacks on the top of the board, so no issues soldering.
dave
thats exactly what i had in mind! thanks everyone for your input,
my only question is now
nmj6hcd2 these should fit in a 1590B?
being 26.53mm long x 2 = 53.06mm (the body of the jack)
and i measured in internal dimensions of the 1590B im using approx 55-56mm these should work?
I just assumed that all pcb jacks were a similar size and didnt realise that my current Cliff offerings are larger!
Quote from: ElectricDruid on March 12, 2018, 08:50:33 PM
It's clearly within the realm of possibility, since it's so widely done
The manufacturers don't do it because it's better, they do it because it's cheaper. And they only need it to last for the length of the warranty. I think we're tempted to build the same way we see production pedals built because we want to make our stuff look "professional" - but that doesn't necessarily mean better.
Quote from: GGBB on March 13, 2018, 11:06:52 AM
I think we're tempted to build the same way we see production pedals built because we want to make our stuff look "professional" - but that doesn't necessarily mean better.
bool mindStatus()
{
whoa = mindBlown(thatQuote);
return whoa;
}
:icon_eek:
Quote from: GGBB on March 13, 2018, 11:06:52 AM
Quote from: ElectricDruid on March 12, 2018, 08:50:33 PM
It's clearly within the realm of possibility, since it's so widely done
The manufacturers don't do it because it's better, they do it because it's cheaper. And they only need it to last for the length of the warranty. I think we're tempted to build the same way we see production pedals built because we want to make our stuff look "professional" - but that doesn't necessarily mean better.
Not true at all, yes it is cheaper to make as no time wasted on cutting and soldering wires but if manufacturers make pedals with PCB mounted jacks and the jack sockets fail after 12 months then there reputation would be worth nothing.
The fact is these pedals with pcb jacks can last years and decades just like any other method of mounting jacks can.
All the pedals I make and sell have PCB mounted jacks and in the last 6 years of production I have had Zero jack failures. It is well within the capability for any DIY'er to drill enclosures accurately without the need for expensive tooling.
It depends how they're used. On a pedalboard, where there isn't much plugging/unplugging or cable tugging, board-mounted jacks may hold up well enough. On something that gets dragged around at punk rock shows, the solder joints will eventually crack. It's a very common amp repair for me, the Fender HotRod/Blues series are very popular around here. Personally I don't board-mount any electro-mechanical parts in anything I build, though in some cases I see board-mounted pots more as a pot-mounted board, as long as the pots are still panel-mounted. If that makes sense.
Quote from: thermionix on March 13, 2018, 05:54:40 PM
... the solder joints will eventually crack. It's a very common amp repair for me, the Fender HotRod/Blues series are very popular around here.
That was actually the very first amp repair I ever did, before I even joined this forum. I was playing my Fender "red-knob" Super 60 at a punk rock show and right at the end of the last song my guitar cut out. I was afraid everything melted from intense punk rock (like any normal guitarist) but opened it up to find broken solder joints on the board-mounted jack. Put in an open jack since it's all I had lying around and the amp ran great ... until I flipped it to get into the "boutique" world :P
Quote from: Ice-9 on March 13, 2018, 03:58:51 PM
Quote from: GGBB on March 13, 2018, 11:06:52 AM
The manufacturers don't do it because it's better, they do it because it's cheaper. And they only need it to last for the length of the warranty. I think we're tempted to build the same way we see production pedals built because we want to make our stuff look "professional" - but that doesn't necessarily mean better.
Not true at all, yes it is cheaper to make as no time wasted on cutting and soldering wires but if manufacturers make pedals with PCB mounted jacks and the jack sockets fail after 12 months then there reputation would be worth nothing.
The fact is these pedals with pcb jacks can last years and decades just like any other method of mounting jacks can.
I'm not clear on how what you stated makes what I stated "not true at all." Would you kindly elaborate?
Quote from: GGBB on March 13, 2018, 06:37:45 PM
Quote from: Ice-9 on March 13, 2018, 03:58:51 PM
Quote from: GGBB on March 13, 2018, 11:06:52 AM
The manufacturers don't do it because it's better, they do it because it's cheaper. And they only need it to last for the length of the warranty. I think we're tempted to build the same way we see production pedals built because we want to make our stuff look "professional" - but that doesn't necessarily mean better.
Not true at all, yes it is cheaper to make as no time wasted on cutting and soldering wires but if manufacturers make pedals with PCB mounted jacks and the jack sockets fail after 12 months then there reputation would be worth nothing.
The fact is these pedals with pcb jacks can last years and decades just like any other method of mounting jacks can.
I'm not clear on how what you stated makes what I stated "not true at all." Would you kindly elaborate?
I say that because you mention manufacturers do it because it is chaeper and they also only need it to last until the warrany period is over
Your first point on cheaper to make, OK I can get that, but your second point on only lasting to the end of the warranty period... well as I said, no maker would do that for the the fact their reputation would be worth nothing. Pretty clear I thought.
Quote from: thermionix on March 13, 2018, 05:54:40 PM
It depends how they're used. On a pedalboard, where there isn't much plugging/unplugging or cable tugging, board-mounted jacks may hold up well enough. On something that gets dragged around at punk rock shows, the solder joints will eventually crack. It's a very common amp repair for me, the Fender HotRod/Blues series are very popular around here. Personally I don't board-mount any electro-mechanical parts in anything I build, though in some cases I see board-mounted pots more as a pot-mounted board, as long as the pots are still panel-mounted. If that makes sense.
I think if the jacks are stressing the board, what's failed is the mechanical attachment. Soldering the jacks onto the PCB is not a replacement for a good solid nut holding them into the panel. If that nut is loose or absent, then of course the solder will break. Solder isn't a mechanical fixing method, it's an electrical connection method. Similarly with board-mounted pots. If you don't have the pots well fixed into the panel, then you're putting torque on them every time you turn them and the joints will definitely fail sooner or later.
In my view, this isn't a fault of the method, it's just poor implementation (no lock washer?) or sloppy maintenance (tighten the jacks up if you notice they're loose!!). I've seen plenty of open-frame jacks with wires broken off because the jack was loose and wiggled about or even span right round in its mounting hole.
Tom
Quote from: Ice-9 on March 14, 2018, 05:37:21 PM
no maker would do that for the the fact their reputation would be worth nothing. Pretty clear I thought.
Not clear - else I wouldn't have asked. Thanks for explaining your opinion.
Quote from: ElectricDruid on March 14, 2018, 06:48:37 PM
I think if the jacks are stressing the board, what's failed is the mechanical attachment. Soldering the jacks onto the PCB is not a replacement for a good solid nut holding them into the panel. If that nut is loose or absent, then of course the solder will break. Solder isn't a mechanical fixing method, it's an electrical connection method. Similarly with board-mounted pots. If you don't have the pots well fixed into the panel, then you're putting torque on them every time you turn them and the joints will definitely fail sooner or later.
In my view, this isn't a fault of the method, it's just poor implementation (no lock washer?) or sloppy maintenance (tighten the jacks up if you notice they're loose!!). I've seen plenty of open-frame jacks with wires broken off because the jack was loose and wiggled about or even span right round in its mounting hole.
If the "good solid nut" is what's supporting the PCB, then it's also stressing the joints because the PCB s held on to the "good solid nut" attachment by the solder joints. That's leaving the gate with a design flaw in my opinion. On top of that, when you have PCB mounted jacks on opposite sides in an enclosure with angled sidewalls, you have even more stress because each of the "good solid nuts" is twisting the board in the opposite direction of the other - unless you modify the mount somehow to avoid that stress, which is not an easy DIY task. Wire connections also have potential problems, but jacks connected that way are no more susceptible to loosening than PCB mounted jacks, and they only stress the solder joints by the weight of the wire (assuming the PCB is secured and does not move). PCB jacks have the additional stress of insertion/removal along with board movement if the jack-enclosure mount is what's supporting the PCB (also applies to PCB mounted pots). All of these problems are probably minor enough that you can get many years out of pedal with PCB mounted jacks if it rarely leaves the pedal board. I'm less confident about the lifespan of one that is road-abused on an ongoing basis.
I have a few pedals with PCB jacks on angled sidewalls. One is an old Yamaha Chorus - it has modified enclosure sidewalls to keep the nuts perpendicular to the board. The others are EHX nano pedals. The PCBs in those have a slight arch to them because of the jacks and the sidewall angle - the tighter they get, the greater the arch. I did some searching to find pedal gut shots of various brands who have great reputations - Analogman, Keeley, Fulltone, JHS, and even Wampler don't do that - they either don't use PCB jacks or use non-slanted enclosures. Even BOSS doesn't do that - they use perpendicular sidewalls. (Think whatever you want about BOSS pedals, but you can't knock their reliability.) It wasn't an exhaustive search so there may be some exceptions, but maybe if we want to really make our builds look professional we should follow Analogman etc. and keep the jacks off the PCB. I guess in this case what we sometimes think is the "professional" way to do things is really just the "mass produced" way of doing things. YMMV.
..and if you are going to PCB mount jacks, plated through holes will prove much more reliable..
Quote from: ElectricDruid on March 14, 2018, 06:48:37 PM
I think if the jacks are stressing the board, what's failed is the mechanical attachment. Soldering the jacks onto the PCB is not a replacement for a good solid nut holding them into the panel. If that nut is loose or absent, then of course the solder will break.
But look at the jacks and pots we're often talking about. In the case of the Fender amps I mentioned, the jacks have plastic bushings. That means they can't be torqued down well without damage. So they will undoubtedly work loose, and the only thing holding the jack to the PCB will be the solder joints. The potmetal bushings of 16mm Alpha pots (for example) are only marginally better than plastic. By contrast, think of an open-frame Switchcraft jack, you can torque those down to a degree that they will NEVER work loose under normal use. I don't know if you can even break one of those bushings if you tried, with one hand and a regular nutdriver.
There are a couple of important things to take into account when using PCB mounted jacks with Hammond type enclosures with trapezoidal walls.
The first thing you would notice with PCB mounted jacks is that the external nut does not pull the jack tight against the wall of the enclosure but in fact the diameter of the hole drilled through the enclosure wall is larger than the diameter of the jack extrusion, which really sits in the enclosure hole.
The outside surface of the enclosure is still sloped though so some twist on the PCB may happen, PCB slots around the jacks provide the needed flex (which is very small)this can be seen in the picture of one of my PCB's below This then provides a solid mount from the jack nut as long as everything is measured and drilled correctly which also isn't a difficult job.
Thirdly, jack nuts don't need to be torqued that tight, they are not holding the space shuttle together.
(https://i.imgur.com/secN8e0.jpg)
Quote from: Ice-9 on March 17, 2018, 06:37:22 PM
Thirdly, jack nuts don't need to be torqued that tight, they are not holding the space shuttle together.
What?!? You mean the jack nuts won't survive re-entry from orbit?!? I can't believe it! I'll never accept it! Only the best for my pedals! They must be able to be fired into outer space and re-enter far-away alien atmospheres without damage. After all, how else will I xsopread my concept of "tone" to other galaxies?! ;)
Tom
Quote from: Ice-9 on March 17, 2018, 06:37:22 PM
There are a couple of important things to take into account when using PCB mounted jacks with Hammond type enclosures with trapezoidal walls.
The first thing you would notice with PCB mounted jacks is that the external nut does not pull the jack tight against the wall of the enclosure but in fact the diameter of the hole drilled through the enclosure wall is larger than the diameter of the jack extrusion, which really sits in the enclosure hole.
The outside surface of the enclosure is still sloped though so some twist on the PCB may happen, PCB slots around the jacks provide the needed flex (which is very small)this can be seen in the picture of one of my PCB's below This then provides a solid mount from the jack nut as long as everything is measured and drilled correctly which also isn't a difficult job.
Thirdly, jack nuts don't need to be torqued that tight, they are not holding the space shuttle together.
Those are all good ideas - but they are only just making the best of a less than ideal design IMO. The PCB solder joints are still subject to the stresses of force from motion and jack insertion/removal.
I just did a bit of looking up and calculating. The wall slope angle on Hammond enclosures is stated as "2 degrees or less".
Taking two degrees as a worst case, and assuming that the jack socket takes up 20mm of wall space (it won't) then there's 0.69mm of difference between top and bottom of the jack. 15mm is maybe more realistic, and gives you 0.52mm.
Ok, so if our nut is tightened hard to the outside of the box, our jack is not flat to the PCB and consequently the inward end of it should really be fitted lifted slightly off the PCB (so that there is no stress or flex on the joints). Assuming the jack's innermost pins are 30mm from the panel, we get a figure of 1.05mm.
Given that PCB pins are probably 4 or 5mm, this isn't going to cause any problems, although it should be considered and allowed for (or at least mindfully ignored - this is choice, after all).
The easiest solution to this is to use an enclosure with parallel walls - bingo, no problem.
T.
Quote from: ElectricDruid on March 24, 2018, 06:19:46 PM
The easiest solution to this is to use an enclosure with parallel walls - bingo, no problem.
Wouldn't off-board jacks actually be even easier?
Quote from: ElectricDruid on March 24, 2018, 06:19:46 PM
The easiest solution to this is to use an enclosure with parallel walls - bingo, no problem.
T.
Then the problem becomes sourcing enclosures with parallel sides, precludes anything diecast.
dave
How about just waiting until the board is in the enclosure before you solder the jacks?
Quote from: highwater on March 24, 2018, 11:57:03 PM
How about just waiting until the board is in the enclosure before you solder the jacks?
If you think that through - it's tricky (but not impossible). You have to have the jacks tight while the jack bodies are still fully inside the enclosure. Your board holes need to be large enough to manage the pins going through on an angle, and your board layout needs to accommodate the connectors being underneath, plus room for components, pots etc. You need to drill your enclosure very accurately as well.
But isn't this still about mistaking that mass-produced look for superior quality? Using off board jacks is easier and more reliable IMO.
Quote from: highwater on March 24, 2018, 11:57:03 PM
How about just waiting until the board is in the enclosure before you solder the jacks?
Absolutely! Tighten the jacks into the enclosure with them in the board, then solder, no problem. After all, I've done that with LEDs on other projects and I quite often do it with pots too.
Quote from: GGBB on March 25, 2018, 07:13:00 AM
If you think that through - it's tricky (but not impossible). You have to have the jacks tight while the jack bodies are still fully inside the enclosure. Your board holes need to be large enough to manage the pins going through on an angle, and your board layout needs to accommodate the connectors being underneath, plus room for components, pots etc. You need to drill your enclosure very accurately as well.
The extra hole diameter required is going to be very minimal, but we can calculate that too if you're interested. It's only 2 degrees off vertical, and the average PCB is only 1.5/2mm thick, so it's not a huge amount. Enclosure drilling is more of an issue and is another reason to put somewhat-oversized holes on the PCB.
Quote from: GGBB on March 25, 2018, 07:13:00 AM
But isn't this still about mistaking that mass-produced look for superior quality? Using off board jacks is easier and more reliable IMO.
No, not in my case. If I was designing a PCB for myself alone, yes, I'd agree with you (I *do* agree with you). But I'm designing PCBs that I would like absolute beginners to be able to build as far as possible, and the fact is that off-board wiring is one of the things that people commonly screw up, so anything that can minimise that is going to massively *increase*reliability (in the sense of "I built it! It works!") for me rather than decrease it. So it's not about trying to make it look like a factory unit, it's just trying to reduce the number of wires people need to solder and hence the number they can solder wrong.
Secondly, I haven't done a single project with board-mounted jacks yet, and I don't think it's that likely. In some ways it swaps one problem for another (mixed up wires for inaccurately drilled holes!). But I appreciate the discussion of the pros and cons with you all. It's nice to talk to informed people.
Tom
It's hard to believe that beginners could be more likely to screw up off-board jack wiring than enclosure drilling, but what do I know. I do know which is easier to fix, however, as I've been there personally :-[.
Quote from: GGBB on March 26, 2018, 06:56:00 PM
I do know which is easier to fix, however, as I've been there personally :-[.
Lol! Roger that, millivanillichillywilly!
T.