I'm just wondering what route most people go on here. I'm new to pedal building, and have had a rough time with Vero so far. Does any one make/print their own PCBs on here?
Quote from: GreySuits on June 10, 2019, 02:59:13 AM
Does any one make/print their own PCBs on here?
Yep. Once you go green, you never go back!
I usually let other people design/print their own PCBs and then modify them a bit.. :icon_wink:
I have been using vero for many years, it certainly has it's drawbacks (layouts usually take up more space and are trickier to debug sometimes) but after a while you get the hang of it. The main appeal is that TagboardFX has thousands of predesigned board layouts so you're really spoiled for choice when you first start building. When it comes to making your own designs it is a bit of a pain though. The guys at tagboard have got the vero layout down to a fine art.
Perf has never appealed to me, seems so messy.
I don't usually buy pre made pcbs, they can be expensive and for me part of the fun is making the board,
I have just entered the world of designing my own pcb layouts which is fun once you get your head around a cad software like Eagle, Kicad, etc.
Vero board for the smaller circuits, sometimes pcb's for the bigger ones.
On the one hand, having all these pcb suppliers is great, as it makes things easy. On the other hand, it has become more boring than 10 years ago. Remember all those threads where beginners wanted to clone a famous pedal. Without a ready made pcb, they often ended with their own circuit. For many, this was the start for a "career" as a diy pedal builder. With all those kits or pcb's with build documents, it's a bit like Lego.
Or: Today it's like modern Lego, ten years ago it was like Lego in the 70s - you couldn't do everything, but you needed more creativity and the results were more unique.
I build everything on perf. If a circuit gets more complex than say, and Easyvibe - things can get complicated fast, LOL. Thinking about layout ahead of time is important, but otherwise I find it suits everything I want to do. Maybe I'm dating myself to the magic time 10 years ago!
For anything custom, that I'm doing for myself, I'll use perf.
I don't even bother with layouts anymore. I build it on a breadboard, draw a schem, and go straight to perf.
If it's a production pedal that I want to build, I might just buy a pcb, like for the small clone I built.
I'm enjoying using vero at the moment but I'm fairly new to it too, and all my builds have been pretty small so far.
I don't rule out trying anything, but making PCBs seems like a lot of extra work right now.
If there is a PCB layout available, and I have materials, I'll make the PCB. Otherwise, I'll perf it, either on pad-per-hole boards or traditional bare brown perfboard. Pad-per-hole provides nice stability, such that component leads won't fracture, but desoldering things can be a nuisance so be certain of your build.
I HATE vero. I find it takes up more room than is really needed, because of how you need to lay things out. Plus I find it is harder to follow the signal flow because of the connection-gymnastics that need to be done.
Sidenote, Tayda has recently started carrying a proto-board designed to provide all the relevant pads for an effect built into a 1590B enclosure. It's a little pricey, and makes a number of assumptions about your layout, but provides a number of conveniences. https://www.taydaelectronics.com/new-arrivals/protoboard-for-1590b-diy-pcb-guitar-effect.html
Then there's stuff like the pad-per-hole boards that Small Bear sells, intended for SBE's custom-made enclosures.
I always build on strip-board and like it because it's easy to modify a circuit after its built.
I only tried pad-board once and found it much less forgiving (pads becomeing unglued when trying to modify the circuit).
I wrote free software for doing Vero/Perf layouts that dynamically checks the connectivity as you lay out the circuit. So as long as you specify the netlist correctly (which can be done graphically within the tool) then it is impossible to make a layout with short circuits (the tool forbids it) and the tool will also show you any open circuits that you need to fix.
The software is geared towards how I build on vero. I make breaks between holes, and use bent component leads to bridge adjacent strips together where needed. You can get a very compact layout that way.
It's available from https://sourceforge.net/projects/veroroute/ (https://sourceforge.net/projects/veroroute/).
The software can also be used to produce single-sided toner-transfer style PCBs. Next version (within a few weeks) will have a component editor.
As soon as I can find the time to do it, I'll be adding Gerber export so you can use the same software for PCB fab.
For me it depends. Perf board is most common, but I have lately been doing some more complex, micro controller-based designs that I have been creating PCB's for and having made overseas. I can get 5 of a design for about $10 shipped from China and they are good quality boards. I have also used commercial PCB's for other projects that are more clones of other designs, like a KoT or other expensive drive pedal. Never used vero, it holds no appeal for me.
As a novice, I like perf.
It makes me concentrate on the nuts and bolts of the circuit, I feel its a nice work-flow and understanding.
But once it's all done, I would hate to replace a part.
I've only worked on one PCB for my Univibe, but I got a shop to fab it for me (simple, cheap but decent quality).
Had to order two on a card, so I still have a Univibe pcb lying around...hmm...
Not that keen on doing etching myself, just not a conducive living space for it.
But i stick to simple circuits mostly, so no need.
For me a major part, maybe the most fun part of a build after painting the enclosure was designing and making a pcb. Actually finishing a build and trying it out was pretty anti-climatic.
dave
Quote from: merlinb on June 10, 2019, 03:00:20 AM
Yep. Once you go green, you never go back!
Yep, Kermit had it wrong. It's easy being green, it's just not easy
becoming green (higher barrier to entry than perf/vero).
Once you've learnt to use an EDA like KiCAD, it's super easy.
I normally use pre-patterned prototyping boards:
(https://secure.sayal.com/images_c/PN-103.JPG)
This gives you a set of connections suitable for IC's with power pins passing beneath the device and three pins worth of connections, one for the IC and two for external parts. You can jumper over to other pads as required. This one also has a connection for a DE-9 connector and a header strip and common power lines that run under the device. This is easier to use than vero or pad-per-hole if you are using IC's.
and I'm partial to these proto boards from futurlec as well
https://www.futurlec.com/Protoboards.shtml#PROTO777 (https://www.futurlec.com/Protoboards.shtml#PROTO777)
(https://www.futurlec.com/Pictures/PROTO777.jpg)
Quotehave had a rough time with Vero so far
DEATH TO VERO DEATH TO VERO DEATH TO VERO DEATH TO VERO DEATH TO VERO DEATH TO VERO DEATH TO VERO DEATH TO VERO DEATH TO VERO
Proto boards, like in the posts above, are my favorite way to go, if I'm not going to design the board and have it made for me. Busboard Prototype Systems (https://www.busboard.com/) makes some great boards that are similar but different to the ones Derringer and Amptramp posted. They can take soldering/de/re-soldering without the traces pulling up. Not cheap but over the years I've found it's been worth it.
Giant +1 to designing your own PCBs on something like EagleCAD (https://www.autodesk.com/products/eagle/overview) and having a place like OSHPark (https://oshpark.com/) make the boards for you. I think after all is said and done, it costs the same as etching (http://diy.smallbearelec.com/HowTos/DirectPCBoards/DirectPCBoards.htm), or sometimes even less, yet produces a much higher quality board, you don't have to deal with potentially dangerous chemicals or figure out how to dispose of them, and you spend WAY less time doing tedious crap like sanding forever, or oops, sanded too much, time to start over, etc. Maybe I just sucked at etching boards but I made a few dozen and while they all ended up working just fine, it was a frustrating experience over all. Once you get quick at using CAD software, learning the hotkeys and the menus, it becomes a new part of DIY that's actually really fun and rewarding (guess that makes me a nerd). Not only that, but then you can really dig into some theory and get into proper routing of currents and all that fun stuff. Good luck doing that with vero.
Quote from: Mark Hammer on June 10, 2019, 10:18:12 AM
If there is a PCB layout available, and I have materials, I'll make the PCB. Otherwise, I'll perf it, either on pad-per-hole boards or traditional bare brown perfboard. Pad-per-hole provides nice stability, such that component leads won't fracture, but desoldering things can be a nuisance so be certain of your build.
I HATE vero. I find it takes up more room than is really needed, because of how you need to lay things out. Plus I find it is harder to follow the signal flow because of the connection-gymnastics that need to be done.
Sidenote, Tayda has recently started carrying a proto-board designed to provide all the relevant pads for an effect built into a 1590B enclosure. It's a little pricey, and makes a number of assumptions about your layout, but provides a number of conveniences. https://www.taydaelectronics.com/new-arrivals/protoboard-for-1590b-diy-pcb-guitar-effect.html
Then there's stuff like the pad-per-hole boards that Small Bear sells, intended for SBE's custom-made enclosures.
ah, remind me of this (http://www.super-freq.com/1590-b-perfboard-templat)
i do perfboard since hype of cmoy. Sijosae was my miniaturization guru. Then, see FCUK, cozybuilder, japanese mini builder and some perfwizard with their perfporn, i said to myself. This is the way i choose.
now, im go green, chinese double sided perf, just because more easy, thick and duck_arse use that for cordwood! something i need to finish.
and remember, you can always build vero style in perfboard, but not vice versa
I build most of my things on vero. It is mostly a matter of convenience. I don't have much free time to build, and if i also had to make the pcb's, I would never get anything finished.
I also like making the layouts, but after Tagboard effects came along, I sometimes take a shortcut and use their layout (or use them as inspiration)
I am collecting parts for a submini tube preamp with a smps, and I think I will try to make a pcb for that.
Quote from: merlinb on June 10, 2019, 03:00:20 AM
Quote from: GreySuits on June 10, 2019, 02:59:13 AM
Does any one make/print their own PCBs on here?
Yep. Once you go green, you never go back!
indeed yes, since I started using the pre-sized green perf with plated thru holes, I've never looked back. or forwards.
[happy 200 posts, 287m, and the latest cordywood is 4 layers.]
The prototyping board Derringer uses has side traces with five holes rather than the three holes in the one I showed. You can get anything from three to five holes on each side trace and the more, the better usually. You can always jumper to another set of holes and this is what I often do. The one I showed was from Sayal but they have a number of different designs as do other vendors.
Quote from: Mark Hammer on June 10, 2019, 10:18:12 AM
Sidenote, Tayda has recently started carrying a proto-board designed to provide all the relevant pads for an effect built into a 1590B enclosure. It's a little pricey, and makes a number of assumptions about your layout, but provides a number of conveniences. https://www.taydaelectronics.com/new-arrivals/protoboard-for-1590b-diy-pcb-guitar-effect.html
Pricey indeed! Tayda's double sided prototyping board (i.e. perf) in similar sizes (on which you can do pretty much the exact same thing, albeit with a bit of cutting) is under $1.50 a piece.
Me, after the breadboard to see if I like it, it's on to perfboard. Cheapest/less complicated way for me. I make my own layouts 95% of the time. Sometimes I'll adapt one to perf. I've bought pcbs for more complex stuff I thought were out of my skill range, or if the circuit is highly succeptible to noise. I used to draw my layout by hand, now I use DIY Layout Creator: http://diy-fever.com/software/diylc/
Perfboard is where all those years playing Tetris come in handy. Except now, every piece is attached to at least one other... fun! Generally, you can get perf down to a compact size. The connections are easy to follow. You use the leads of components as traces, so you'll have leads that won't go far enough and have to use lead cut-offs to bridge two connection points. The main concern, though, would be how your layout is going to affect noise, as I've learned. Keep the noisy stuff (like LFOs) away from the in and out.
But they all have strong points and drawbacks. Try em. See for yourself.
Perf is my favourite. Everytime I've built from a pcb I've had frustration if I wanted to do mods, especially the fancy ones with multilayers or big ground pours. Designing a one-off pcb isn't going to happen because it's so much extra work and has to be pretty much right first time.
Perf has to be my favourite. I don't even ever draw the layout, just go by experience. I used to use component leads for traces, but that gets messy if you need to change things. Instead, I strip Kynar wire-wrap for the traces, it's thin enough to go along the pads leaving the hole clear for the component legs and it doesn't need pre-tinning.
I design my own completely from scratch. Used to etch them myself too, but I need solder masks and double sided boards so I just send them off to oshpark and wait a couple weeks. Plus I dont want to play with chemicals anymore.
for one-offs, vero. tried perf a few times lately and kinda liked it for layout, though. just no need to go to the effort of making a PCB for that, imo, unless you wanna do a few of them.
There is one board structure that no one has mentioned so far: X-Y board. This is a version of perfboard that has straight copper traces on both sides, one side in the X direction and the other orthogonal to it in the Y direction. We used to have one designer who prototyped with it exclusively and never needed to add jumpers of any sort. I don't know if anyone makes it anymore but if they do, some brave soul should step up and use it. I don't know if anyone still makes it, but it was interesting while it lasted.
I went looking for X-Y board, found this:
https://the-perf-shop.myshopify.com/collections/frontpage/products/perf-board (https://the-perf-shop.myshopify.com/collections/frontpage/products/perf-board)
which was the product of a successful kickstarter campaign.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/658903329/perf-the-perfboard-reinvented/description (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/658903329/perf-the-perfboard-reinvented/description)
It has rows of tracks, x on one layer, y on the other with rows of pads seperated from the tracks by a small solder-bridgable gap
Always used perf. Being a cheapskate I'm not too interested in learning to make pcbs especially since I'm not in the habit of making multiple copies of the same circuit (except variations on the BMP). Never liked vero but I've ordered some to see if it makes working with multi-IC circuits easier.
QuoteI went looking for X-Y board, found this:
https://the-perf-shop.myshopify.com/collections/frontpage/products/perf-board
which was the product of a successful kickstarter campaign.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/658903329/perf-the-perfboard-reinvented/description
It has rows of tracks, x on one layer, y on the other with rows of pads seperated from the tracks by a small solder-bridgable gap
nice
I use RTS pcbs and perf. Never got my head around vero, and now that most RTS boards are plated through, I can't see the point of etching my own, at least for things for which RTS is available, which is a lot and growing.