Hi,
I recently started El Rey de la Gloria Azul II project from delyk (on musikding).
Unfortunatly there isn't any BOM or instructions on delyk's website.
I contacted him a week ago, and he answered me that he's gonna try to do it as soon as he can.
https://www.delykpcb.com/product/el-rey-de-la-gloria-azul-ii-pcb/
Few days later, I thought I could populate the pcb by myself, identifying the changes from version 1 to version 2.
I used a multimeter to check continuity between the different component's location but something is obviously wrong with my work. I only have a signal in bypass mode, the led doesn't even light up.
My questions would be : a/ What would be the most secure way to populate a pcb without instructions in case it happen again ?
b/ can you help me populate this one (I know I should be more patient, but it could be instructive, right?) ?
Here's what i did for a kind of Morning glory project on this delyk's pcb :
Rpd = 2.2 M
R1 = 1M
R2 = 3.3k
R3 = 4k7
R4 = 10k
R5 = 220k
R6 = 6k8
R7 = 1k
R8 = 6k8
R9 = 47k
R10 = none
Rx1 = 68k
Rx2 = 1M
Rx3 = 22k
Rx4 = 12k
Rx5 = 12k
Rx6 = 100k
C1 = 47 nf
C2 = 47 pf
C3 = 10n
C4 = 10 n
C5 = 100n
C6 = 10n
C7 = 10n
C8 = 1uf mlcc (don't have mlcc so i took an other type)
C9 = none
C10 = 100uf
C11 = 100uf
Cx1 = 100pf
Cx2 = 470pf
Cx3 = 100n
Cx4 = 10uf
Cx5 = 1uf polarized
Cx6 = 10n
D11 = backward : square pad for diode + (continuity with 9V on DC power jack) , round pad for - (there is continuity with ground)
and here is a picture :
(https://i.postimg.cc/pynkm24V/IMG-20210112-184933.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/pynkm24V)
Edit : I worked with this schematics from Aion's Cerulean which is a close project, I compared with the first version instructions (download > BOM)
https://aionfx.com/app/files/docs/cerulean_documentation.pdf
https://www.delykpcb.com/product/el-rey-de-la-gloria-azul-pcb/
I don't mean to be critical, but no-one should ever buy a commercial PCB that doesn't come with at the very least a list of part values. Or maybe no-one should ever sell a commercial PCB without providing at the very least a list of part values.
There is no easy way to populate the board. You essentially have to reverse-engineer the board component-by-component, trace-by-trace. Then you will have a - hopefully accurate - schematic with which you can compare to whichever circuit you want to build and figure out the correct part values.
That's too bad.
I didn't ordered this pcb, I didn't even knew there was a second version. I ordered the first one but I guess it is discontinued...
Reverse-engineer the board is done with a multimeter on continuity mod and that's all ?
http://music.codydeschenes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/JHS-Morning-Glory-Schematic.png (http://music.codydeschenes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/JHS-Morning-Glory-Schematic.png)
Fresh battery in your DMM and go.. :icon_wink:
edit: Wrong version posted.. Aionfx is more close to your PCB..
Some part's locations are hard to figure out : R10's right pad is connected to 9V+ and left pad is connected to the fifth leg of the LM833 (+ IN B). I can't find it on both schematics.
C9 is connected to Volume's left pad. C9's upper pad is connected to Rx3. I thought it was 100n and then I thought it was the one you need to left empty if you build the gain stage, like C8 on Cerulean.
I am not sure about the polarity protection diode (D11) does it makes sense to put i t backward ?
Quote from: eh là bas ma on January 12, 2021, 04:19:56 PM
R10's right pad is connected to 9V+ and left pad is connected to the fifth leg of the LM833 (+ IN B).
It can't be 'cause pin 5 (+ IN) should be connected on VB (junction of 47k/47k resistors..)
edit: It might be 10k/10k VB so check for another 10k going from pin 5 to GND..
(after all, only one 47k is included in your BOM..)
Quote from: eh là bas ma on January 12, 2021, 01:16:19 PM..Reverse-engineer the board is done with a multimeter on continuity mod and that's all ?
Reverse engineering is done with your brain.
Eyes, meter, etc are just for clues.
Quote from: eh là bas ma on January 12, 2021, 04:19:56 PM
I am not sure about the polarity protection diode (D11) does it makes sense to put i t backward ?
Depends on the type of polarity protection. If it's a parallel diode (connects between Vin and ground) then it should be backward. If it's a series diode (between Vin and circuit power) then it should be forward.
Quote from: antonis on January 12, 2021, 05:13:48 PM
Quote from: eh là bas ma on January 12, 2021, 04:19:56 PM
R10's right pad is connected to 9V+ and left pad is connected to the fifth leg of the LM833 (+ IN B).
It can't be 'cause pin 5 (+ IN) should be connected on VB (junction of 47k/47k resistors..)
edit: It might be 10k/10k VB so check for another 10k going from pin 5 to GND..
(after all, only one 47k is included in your BOM..)
Your help is very much appreciated, I just have a hard time to understand what you mean. There is a little section (with the polarity protection diode) cut from the main circuit : Is it a buffer section ? According to the Cerulean, that's where both 47k go.
What does "VB", "VR" or "VA" means ?
I read somewhere it means half voltage ?
There is two 47k in "El Rey" BOM and only one 10k resistor.
In the first version schematics There is R5 and R6 (10k and 4k7)in serie going to some caps then going to the opamp. A jumper should replace the 4k7 if i don't build a bluesbreaker. Maybe this is R10 ? The two emplacements under R10 (R9 and R11) are connected to each other. R9 is also connected to 9V+, and R11 to the big cap (C11) next to them. I figured it was part of the "buffer section" . R10 is also connected to R1 and R1 to R11... I am getting lost...
Quote from: GGBB on January 12, 2021, 06:23:50 PM
Quote from: eh là bas ma on January 12, 2021, 04:19:56 PM
I am not sure about the polarity protection diode (D11) does it makes sense to put i t backward ?
Depends on the type of polarity protection. If it's a parallel diode (connects between Vin and ground) then it should be backward (anode to ground). If it's a series diode (between Vin and circuit power) then it should be forward.
Ok, thanks.
Can I do some damage to this kind of circuit if I place this polarity protection the wrong way ? Do I have a second chance to desolder and turn it around if I am wrong ?
"Vin" designate 9V's pad on the pcb ? What do you name "circuit power"? Is it the 9V pin on the power jack ?
Edit: opamp's pin 8 is connected to the square pad so I assume D11 orientation is right.
Surely the guy that did the board can tell you the schematic he used?
If not, just get a schematic and match up the designators (R1, C2 etc) with PCB. You can see the connections clearly on the PCB. It's a lot easier to see on a bare board than a populated board so putting the time in up front will pay off later. Use the multimeter conductivity buzzer to check "long range" connections.
Quote from: Rob Strand on January 12, 2021, 08:42:44 PM
Surely the guy that did the board can tell you the schematic they used?
If not, just get a schematic and match up the designators (R1, C2 etc) with PCB. You can see the connections clearly on the PCB. It's a lot easier to see on a bare board than a populated board so putting the time in up front will pay off later. Use the multimeter conductivity buzzer to check "long range" connections.
I think i did that yersteday. That's how i came up with the long list of values in the first post. Being my first "reverse-engineering-using-my-brain" thing, I meet some difficulties along the way. Notably some inner networks like "ground" and "VB" . Some pads are ringing with others when I didn't expect they would because they're linked by these networks that I am still trying to understand.
Clearly I could wait for Mister Kyle Daley from Delyk to send me something, but he doesn't happen to be in a hurry. I never heard a bluesbreaker-ish pedal before, only in concerts, in video, or in my dreams... I guess i am in a hurry, moreover, beeing as lost as i am now means i am learning (painfully but still) ! It seems the real difficulty here is that the board is intended for three different projects, with interesting mods (bright cut, clip, hard clip). A few component's locations should be jumped or skipped for every versions (Morning glory, KoT, Bbreaker).
I never spent so much time before trying to make sense with three schematics of the same hybrid circuit, if I succeed i will have those famous circuits engraved for ever in my mind. I can almost tell you every cap and resistor values by heart already and in good order ! Maybe i can even hope to understand precisely what's actually happening when someone will use it ...
I found this doc on the website. It looks like it has all the info in it.
https://www.delykpcb.com/product/el-rey-de-la-gloria-azul-pcb/?attachment_id=1064&download_file=5c5b866ab67ba
QuoteIt seems the real difficulty here is that the board is intended for three different projects, with interesting mods (bright cut, clip, hard clip). A few component's location should be jumped or skipped.
It does confuse things. Just follow the columns, if a part isn't listed just leave it out.
Thank you, this is version 1 instructions. I already put it at the end of my first post. I worked with it but there is some significant differences with version 2.
It really looks like Delyk looked at aion' s cerulean (which is exactly the same 3-in-1 project) and did something much closer to the cerulean with his "Rey" version2.
For exemple the optional gain stage is now designated, on El Rey II's pcb, by "Rx..." and "Cx..." exactly like aion's schematics. None of that in previous version 1, he kept with the normal designations.
Can you tell me how do you call the little separated section of the circuit with the polarity protection diode, and what is the difference between 9V+, "VA" and "VR" on the cerulean schematic, please ? So that I can find these with the multimeter (link is https://aionfx.com/app/files/docs/cerulean_documentation.pdf ).
QuoteThank you, this is version 1 instructions. I already put it at the end of my first post. I worked with it but there is some significant differences with version 2.
It really looks like Delyk looked at aion' s cerulean (which is exactly the same 3-in-1 project) and did something much closer to the cerulean with his "Rey" version2.
For exemple the optional gain stage is now designated by "Rx..." and "Cx..." exactly like aion's schematics.
It's quite possible it follows aion' cerulean. You could try to compare all the documents and see what it is different. You might find they are very close. The biggest problem would be an Rx and Cx on the V2 board that is different to the all the documents. That would be very annoying. It might help comparing the PCB pic in the V1 PDF with the PCB you have. The PCB pic currently on the Delky website might be V1 or V2, it depends how fussy the guy is about showing exactly what you are buying.
There is a big picture of the Version II at Delyk's. It is the first link in the first post, here it is : https://www.delykpcb.com/product/el-rey-de-la-gloria-azul-ii-pcb/
I did compare the two versions with the Cerulean and with the JHS schematics ( http://music.codydeschenes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/JHS-Morning-Glory-Schematic.png ), that's how i came up with the long list of values in the first post . I proceeded with the soldering, but the 9V electric power doesn't hit the pcb, the led doesn't light up (it does if i test it with a battery) and there is no signal. Only in bypass mode i can hear my guitar. Like something stops or absorbs all the electric power. Could it be the polarity diode ?
Edit : i tried to replace the DC power jack and it is still the same, i read 0.5 V on the multimeter, where it should be 9V. Even with the black probe on ground and red probe on positive lug of the DC power jack, I read something going between 0.5 and 0.9 V. The power supply unit is Onespot and works perfectly with other stompboxes. A different power supply does the same, unfortunatly.
QuoteCould it be the polarity diode ?
Somewhere in the PDF I posted I remember reading the protection diode was around the wrong way!
(on page 4, D11)
Well, i am gonna try to turn D11 around just in case.
There is also the JP1 thing (on page 6),located in the bottom left corner. Any idea what does it do ? I have soldered every switches so I went with the last option : jumper on pad 2 and 3 (assuming pad 1 is the closest to the edge of the pcb).
QuoteThere is also the JP1 thing (on page 6),located in the bottom left corner. Any idea what does it do ? I have soldered every switches so I went with the last option : jumper on pad 2 and 3 (assuming pad 1 is the closest to the edge of the pcb).
It changes the connection of C2 (see schematic, C2 is near IC1A).
From what I can see this will have no effect on the operation of the pedal. It's more to do with following the original pedal schematic exactly.
Yyyeeehhaaaahaahhaha!
Rob you're the best !
The led Lights up!
Let me try with a guitar now...
Edit : no sound. But still, Progress ! Thank you so much !
I do have 9V on pin 8 of the LM833, and there is kind of a "soft wind" sound when I turn the volume up.
The guitar signal doesn't go through though.
I wonder if an extra capacitor could kill the signal : There is a 1uf cap usefull for the KoT (c15 on 1rst version's schematics and Cx5 on the 2nd, if i am not mistaking). I placed Cx5 on the pcb : I'll try without it.
Also, there is the lug 1of the Volume pot that should be connected to ground, if the gain stage is built, or if a B250k is used instead of B100k for Gain. I did bend the lug 1 to go in the provided pad which is curiously smaller. I left the original pad empty.
"The Morning Glory adds a JFET as part of the output stage.This will increase the volume and change the output impedance. If you use this mod, be sure to connect lug 1 of the Volume pot to the GND pad located next to the original pad. (You'll need to bend the pin of the pot.)" and " VOL lug 1 normally goes to VB, but if using the B250k, lug 1 needs to go to GND."
It's time for some measurements, I presume.. :icon_wink:
Check for +9V on PCB respective pad..
Check for continuity between PCB GND and IC pin 4..
Check for +9V on IC pin 8..
Check for +4.5V on ALL IC pins..
(for pin 3 you might get lower measurement due to DMM impedance loading..)
Check for 6v to 3V say, on Q1 Drain..
P.S.
It should be convenient to take off diodes from NFB loop (those connected to IC pin 7) for more accurate measurements..
In fact, it should be better for those diodes to be connected AFTER you get some kind of sound (distorted or not..)
edit:Didn't read your last post..
Quote from: antonis on January 13, 2021, 05:07:45 AM
Check for +9V on PCB respective pad..
Check for continuity between PCB GND and IC pin 4..
Check for +9V on IC pin 8..
Check for +4.5V on ALL IC pins..
(for pin 3 you might get lower measurement due to DMM impedance loading..)
Check for 6v to 3V say, on Q1 Drain..
Thank you for your help !
9V pad on pcb shows 9.45V
There's continuity between ground and pin 4 of the LM833
LM833 reads :
1 = 8.50V 8 = 9.45V
2 = 8.44V 7 = 9.32 V
3 = 8.49V 6 = 9.09V
4 = 0.001V 5 = 9.45V
No 4.5V value anywhere, I guess that's bad.
Q1's drain leg reads 6.37V
I took off 2 caps that seem unnecessary for the Morning Glory's version (C8 and Cx5 on my pcb, C15 and C16 on the 1rst version 's schematics), placed a jumper on C8 and C9 (C9 is connected to Rx3, Q1 drain pin, and Volume lug 3, located in the optional gain section, I am still trying to find it on schematics, it's not electrolytic).
I left the diodes for measurements, in the 1rst post's picture, you can see there is 8 of them.
If you insist, I will desolder them all .
Quote from: eh là bas ma on January 13, 2021, 12:08:20 PM
No 4.5V value anywhere, I guess that's bad.
Not necessarily.. :icon_wink:
There should be 2 X 47k resistors connected to IC pin 3.. (or to pin 5, depending on the specific schematic used..)
Check for one of them to also be connected to GND..
(https://i.imgur.com/0cCEATy.jpg)
I placed them just above the polarity protection diode, and under R10
(r10 is a jumper connected to pin 5 an the positive leg of C10(100uf) on one side, to 9V and the positive leg of C11 (100uf) on the other side).
47k are R9 and R11 on my pcb.
R9 is connected to protection diode, pad IN, R11, Rpd resistor (i guess it's GND too), and GND on one side, and to cx5, C8, pad OUT on the other .
R11 is connected to, pin 8, positive leg of C11 (100uf), C6, R10 (jumper) on one side and R9, and GND on the other.
I don't know what to do with R10, it's connected to pin 5 and caps so maybe it was 47k...
Quote from: eh là bas ma on January 13, 2021, 03:20:49 PM
R9 is connected to protection diode, pad IN, R11, Rpd resistor and GND on one side and to cx5, C8, pad OUT on the other .
Sorry but that can't stand..
(you realize you're talking for IN - OUT permanently connected via a 47k resistor, don't you..??)
I have a short between GND and IN sorry!
edit : I meant GND and OUT, i'm looking at it from the wrong side.
There shouldn't be neither IN nor OUT short to GND..
If it's some kind of PCB track, throw away the whole board.. :icon_wink:
On the pcb's wiring pads when the pedal is switched off, IN is connected to GND, it's no longer connected when I switch on.
I've cleaned aeras around solder joints, no more shorts but R9 is still ringing with IN and OUT.
Looking at Delyk's back side picture of the pcb , it seems ok to me, like it should do that :
https://www.delykpcb.com/product/el-rey-de-la-gloria-azul-ii-pcb/
(under the big pic you can choose and click on the back side picture)
edit : the diode is just above the wiring pads and R9 is just above the diode
edit 2 : I can be wrong, the diode isn't connected to IN or OUT, so I'm not sure why it's ringing with R9
edit 3 : I will invert R9 and R10 just in case
It's working ! I have a signal with the stompbox activated !
And distortion ! Seems to work fine, the clip switch doesn't do much but the rest is fine.
I'm so gratefull to you !
Glory to Antonis !!
Hurray...!!! :icon_lol:
It's a miracle, I mean what a day ! I didn't really believe it could be done, this is your help and the strangest luck.
Many thanks again !
Now let's listen to this thing...
Edit : one last thing so I can clarify things a bit : "VB" and "VA", or VR means "voltage going to "A", to "B" or to "R", is that it ?
VA is the voltage feeding the circuit AFTER the protective diode..
(Power supply voltage minus Schottky diode forward voltage drop..)
VB(ias) or VR(eference) is the IC non-inverting inputs biasing voltage..
(half of VA in case of R9/R10 equal values..)
It also serves as AC ground due to C10..
Quote from: antonis on January 13, 2021, 05:32:37 PM
VA is the voltage feeding the circuit AFTER the protective diode..
(Power supply voltage minus Schottky diode forward voltage drop..)
VB(ias) or VR(eference) is the IC non-inverting inputs biasing voltage..
(half of VA in case of R9/R10 equal values..)
It also serves as AC ground due to C10..
Mmmmh ? AC ground ? I'm gonna reflect on that, do some research to really get it inside my head. I still don't understand most of this circuit. I'm going to have to build more and specially read more . Thank you !
Quote from: eh là bas ma on January 13, 2021, 05:05:41 PM
the clip switch doesn't do much
It depends on D8/9 and D10/11/12/13 type of diodes..
You can see that when switch is set to "HARD", there is only one diode forward voltage drop for each waveform polarity (+/-) where there is 2 X 1 diode forward voltage drop for switch set to the other position..
(it doubles clipping threshold hence less hard clipping..)
You can see that, in case of D8/9 voltage drop double of D10/11/12/13 one, switch is totally useless.. :icon_wink:
Here comes AC ground (VR) which simply is considered as GND for signal..
C10 (47μF) exhibits very low impedance (you can call it capacitive reactance or resistance..) so VR is effectivelly connected to circuit GND..
P.S.
Plz., don't ask the reason for connecting signal to VR instead of GND 'cause it will trigger a veeeeery long argument and it's late enough here.. :icon_lol:
Quote from: antonis on January 13, 2021, 05:57:15 PM
P.S.
Plz., don't ask the reason for connecting signal to VR instead of GND 'cause it will trigger a veeeeery long argument and it's late enough here.. :icon_lol:
But... but you just aroused my curiosity ? i am going to do a search on this forum.
Edit: Virtual ground? a fancy trick done to the op-amp ? there's many posts about it at first glance
QuoteEdit: Virtual ground? a fancy trick done to the op-amp ? there's many posts about it at first glance
Virtual ground is a different thing. It's something which comes up with inverting amplifiers.
To a first approximation the VR vs Ground thing is very simple. You need two idea:
- Any voltage source looks like ground to AC signals.
- A capacitor prevents DC current flowing but allows AC currents to flow.
The difference between VR and Ground is VR has a DC voltage and Ground does not. For AC signal, because of the first point, VR and Ground looks the same.
When the signal connecting to VR has a series capacitor that blocks any DC, because of the second point. That means you can connect that point to either VR or Ground and it will not affect the DC, and it will behave the same for AC. So the two appear to be identical.
Optional: Where they aren't the same is VR isn't a rock-solid voltage source it's made up of resistors and caps. They means to some degree it's not ideal. If the cap on VR is too small it makes this problem worse. You might see some stuff about about VR being noisy. It can be noisy but connecting those optional VR vs GND connection to ground doesn't get around the noise because there's other connection points between VR and the opamp that lets the noise in anyway. Don't worry if it doesn't make sense!
Almost every stompboxes are fed with DC power supply. Where does the AC current come from ? Is it "made" inside the circuit ?
Quote from: antonis on January 13, 2021, 05:57:15 PM
P.S.
Plz., don't ask the reason for connecting signal to VR instead of GND 'cause it will trigger a veeeeery long argument and it's late enough here.. :icon_lol:
Is "VR instead of GND" a specialty on Bluesbreaker-ish circuits, or many other effects are based on this, like tubescreamers for exemple ? (i am not really asking the reason here, I don't want to start any argument... I think).
Quote from: eh là bas ma on January 14, 2021, 06:40:45 AM
Almost every stompboxes are fed with DC power supply. Where does the AC current come from ?
!! Signal..!!
!! Signal..!!
!! Signal..!!
Guitar signal is an almost perfect(*) sinewave and, as Fourier has proved, you can form any kind of waveform by superposing various sinewaves..
(*) Nothing more falseness than the above.. :icon_biggrin:
Quote from: eh là bas ma on January 14, 2021, 06:40:45 AM
Is "VR instead of GND" a specialty on Bluesbreaker-ish circuits, or many other effects are based on this, like tubescreamers for exemple ?
You're confused a bit.. :icon_wink:
GND is GNS is GND, period...!!
You may consider VR as a subset of GND set.. :icon_wink:
(is works for AC as GND works for both AC and DC..)
Sometimes it's more convenient (depending on particular circuit and layout) to use VR as "ground" instead of GND..
P.S.
It seems to me you didn't read/study well what Rob told you above.. :icon_cool:
Quote from: eh là bas ma on January 14, 2021, 06:40:45 AM
Almost every stompboxes are fed with DC power supply. Where does the AC current come from ? Is it "made" inside the circuit ?
the DC sets up the static operating conditions inside the circuit. the AC is the signal which you jamb in one end, mangle in the middle, and extract from the other end. the DC stays
inside the box, the AC goes in and comes out.
Thanks for this post, I also have a El Rey de la Gloria Azul II PCB and was trying to find the build doc. I can attempt the build now based on the hard work you guys put in here. Thanks!!
Here are my last results :
Rpd = 2.2 M
R1 = 1M
R2 = 3.3k
R3 = 4k7
R4 = 10k
R5 = 220k
R6 = 6k8
R7 = 1k
R8 = 6k8
R9 = empty
R10 = 47k
R11 = 47k
Rx1 = 68k
Rx2 = 1M
Rx3 = 22k
Rx4 = 12k
Rx5 = 12k
Rx6 = 100k
C1 = 47 nf
C2 = 47 pf
C3 = 10n
C4 = 10 n
C5 = 100n
C6 = 10n
C7 = 10n
C8 = jumper
C9 = none
C10 = 100uf
C11 = 100uf
Cx1 = 100pf
Cx2 = 470pf
Cx3 = 100n
Cx4 = 10uf
Cx5 = none
Cx6 = 2.2 uf
D11 = regular orientation
I am not sure if it's allright, all controls are working, so I managed to get something close, I guess.
If you notice something wrong in these values, please tell me.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CZrSxrY3/IMG-20210417-121007.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/CZrSxrY3)
Since i've been asked several times to share the build docs (they still aren't available on Delyk's website), I'll post them here for future builders :
(https://i.postimg.cc/8sX2N2rm/Screenshot-2023-02-26-at-16-29-55-Screenshot.png) (https://postimg.cc/8sX2N2rm)
You can just click on the pic, and zoom in.