Hello,
I am trying to finish a Spectron.
https://aionfx.com/app/files/docs/spectron_documentation.pdf
I can hear a filtering effect. All controls are doing something exept Decay and attack . But it isn't "wah-ing"... Filtering isn't going up and down. It sounds like a fixed wah.
Vactrols light up and stay fixed that way, they respond to Intensity, but no variation in the lights other than that. I have to keep turning this knob to hear a wah effect. SENS. led is either on or off according to the Sweep switch position, it isn't pulsating, same as vactrols.
I am using an LM358 on IC2.
As instructed, I jumpered pin 2 and 3 of the color pot, I made sure it was pin 3 by checking if it was connected to R15 (first picture).
Sweep lock washer is set on position 2, Range on position 4.
External trigger : I did cut the trace until my multimeter said there is no connection.
(https://i.postimg.cc/t1s2WHjG/IMG-20211218-152200.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/t1s2WHjG)
(https://i.postimg.cc/LJCxJ8GV/IMG-20211218-152347.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LJCxJ8GV)
I wonder where to look to restore the sweeping. Any idea how I should proceed ?
It feels like very close to work ! Any help would be welcome.
So you cut the pads for the external trigger mod, did you add a normally closed switching jack?
Have you confirmed that with nothing plugged in to that jack there is now continuity between those two pads? Until there is there will be no trigger...unless you have an external source hooked up.
Quote from: idy on December 18, 2021, 10:40:00 AM
So you cut the pads for the external trigger mod, did you add a normally closed switching jack?
Have you confirmed that with nothing plugged in to that jack there is now continuity between those two pads? Until there is there will be no trigger...unless you have an external source hooked up.
It does look correctly wired based on the photo, but yeah, would be good to have confirmation that the white and blue wires have continuity where they meet the PCB.
I would try swapping out the LM358 for another one. I've had a couple of reports of similar issues and it usually is fixed by using another 358. They're not all made the same even within the same brand and they don't always bias up right in this application. I'm guessing there would have been some sorting done on the original Meatball units.
Thanks for your help !
Votage on LM358 :
1= 4.8 mV
2= 83.1 mV
3= 2.2 mV
4= 0.5 mV
5 facing 4 = 1.0 mV
6= 1.079 V
7= 1.079 V
8= 9.10 V
I am unboxing it to check the trigger pads...
edit : local store has LM358 ! I am running there...
edit 2 : I went through the christmas crowd and bought 3 new chips (2 euros a piece, ...ouch!) new values with the first one :
1= 20.6 mV
2= 46.9mV
3= 1.4 mV
4= 0.5 mV
5= 1.0 mV
6= 1.528mV
7= 1.528mV
8 = 9.10 V
controls are set on instructions standard auto wah.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vDmB6pGX/IMG-20211218-175855.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/vDmB6pGX)
Those voltages are about what you would expect: 9v on 8, 0 on 4, the other pins less than 1v.
So no triggering at all?
When you turn the sweep switch to "down", does the LED light up with no signal? It should.
You will want to confirm that signal is making it to that 358. Signal probe. It should sound lousy at pin 3 (and 2 and 1) because it is rectifying, but it should sound.
Then there is there is my hobby horse, biasing the 358. Pin 3. Putting a 100k pot from 9v to that pin should allow you to dial in a spot where the LED is barely lit with no signal, or lights with small signal. Mutron has 22k to ground on that pin, but it is bipolar, so a "proper" steal of the circuit would have done things differently. Meatball "gets away" with this error, maybe they had a certain shipment of opamps that worked... original opamp unknown because numbers sanded off...
I unboxed it and there is connection between the 2 trigger pads when the jack is empty, there isn't when I plugg a jack in there (ext. trigger).
Quote from: idy on December 18, 2021, 12:15:00 PM
Those voltages are about what you would expect: 9v on 8, 0 on 4, the other pins less than 1v.
So no triggering at all?
When you turn the sweep switch to "down", does the LED light up with no signal? It should.
I am not sure what is up and down. Sweep CCW sens. led and vactrols are off, position 2 they're always on. I unboxed it and messed with the controls so I ll answer you about the signal once it is back in place.
while it is unboxed, 2 pics (with and without flash) of the soldering side, in case someone can spot something obvious that i am missing :
(https://i.postimg.cc/DW8tQdYW/IMG-20211218-182734.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/DW8tQdYW)
(https://i.postimg.cc/PC6g8FKs/IMG-20211218-182758.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/PC6g8FKs)
Quote from: idy on December 18, 2021, 12:15:00 PM
You will want to confirm that signal is making it to that 358. Signal probe. It should sound lousy at pin 3 (and 2 and 1) because it is rectifying, but it should sound.
Then there is there is my hobby horse, biasing the 358. Pin 3. Putting a 100k pot from 9v to that pin should allow you to dial in a spot where the LED is barely lit with no signal, or lights with small signal. Mutron has 22k to ground on that pin, but it is bipolar, so a "proper" steal of the circuit would have done things differently. Meatball "gets away" with this error, maybe they had a certain shipment of opamps that worked... original opamp unknown because numbers sanded off...
And i thought i was so close...signal probing, IC biasing.... No way around that i guess...
I should mention that i am powering this build with a 9 V power supply, 500mA. Input signal comes from active hambucker pickups, through a few other circuits (compressor, etc. all powered off).
Quote from: idy on December 18, 2021, 12:15:00 PM
When you turn the sweep switch to "down", does the LED light up with no signal? It should.
Sweep fully CW vactrols light up and there is a signal (highs slightly boosted). Next position CCW, i hear a "iiiiiïwwouuuuh" like a wah effect, pitch is going down and the signal fades, If i turn the guitar volume fully up, i can hear the signal filtered (kind of bassy, high frequencies are filtered).
There is a lot to unpack about this circuit. So many knobs and switches, several could cause no effect. Sensitivity up, Color up, Intensity up, Attack down, Decay higher than attack, bandwidth NOT "off" ( not center.)
Your external trigger jack is apparently not the problem.
Your sweep rotary seems to work. In "up" mode the lights are normally off and your signal should trigger the detector and light them up. In "down" the lights are normally on and your picking should turn them down or off. Won't bore you explaining how this works...
And you can hear the difference, so the filter and buffer part of the circuit is working fine, the tl072s.
You could try the 100k pot/trimmer trick and see if it works. No probing, no thinking, just try... The object is to get that 358 up closer to the trigger point with no signal.
QuoteIn "up" mode the lights are normally off and your signal should trigger the detector and light them up. In "down" the lights are normally on and your picking should turn them down or off. Won't bore you explaining how this works...
Thanks, but this wouldn't bore me at all, because this is precisely what is currently not happening on my Spectron. I would be very grateful if you could give more details about this process.
I tried the circuit without IC2 LM358, vactrols don't light up in any position. So LM358 does something at least. I have 4 of them now, I tried each one, but no success. I suspect there is some simple mistake i made by distraction somewhere, building too fast...
I wired the B100k middle lug to 9V (DC jack) and the outer lug to LM358 pin 3.
Now there is a beautiful wah effect when i turn the pot, so that's progress I guess, but it doesn't react to the picking. I have to turn the pot to have a modulation. Turning the pot makes the vactrols light up. The pot is very sensitive, the slightest move with my fingers gives some modulations.
Where should I go from there ?
Instructions page 3 : "The envelope detector is split off from the rest of the circuit and given its own input.
Then, a switching jack is used to restore the connection if no jack is inserted to the sidechain input."
Can you show me the part of the circuit where the detector is located ? I guess this isn't working at all in my build ?
I would like to know wich are the components involved so I can give them a closer look, and reflow them if needed.
Not bore you because that difference, flipping the LED on and off, is not connected to the envelope detector...
It is a simple mechanical thing where a rotary changes the connection of those three LEDs (the visual and the "Vactrol" ones) between power and the opamp.
In one positions the cathode goes towards ground and the anode goes to the opamp that is supposed to put out DC, the second half of the 358. (The first half rectifies your signal, the second buffers it and drives LEDs.) So when voltage goes up (trigger!) the lights go on.
In the other position the anode goes towards 9v+, and the anode goes to the opamp! Because an opamp can "source or sink current." So when there's no signal, the opamp output is low, and current goes to ground through there. When you play guitar, the voltage rises, and is not so far from 9 and the light goes out.
That works. What isn't happening is the first half of the opamp is not sending any volts when you play guitar, only when you "force" it with that pot. So maybe no guitar is getting to it...and the cut track to the "external trigger" was the first place I thought to look. The path is not complicated. Guitar to buffer (ic1a.) Buffer through c4, expression jack, sensitivity pot, r5, bandwidth switch and c5 or c6, into pin 2 of opamp ic2a.
Can you find that path on the schematic... and on the board?
one more thought; when you "force" the 358 with that pot to pin 3, and then set it so the LED is almost on, does your guitar trigger it then? Still no wah?
Thank you very much for your explanation.
Quote from: idy on December 18, 2021, 02:43:44 PM
There is a lot to unpack about this circuit. So many knobs and switches, several could cause no effect. Sensitivity up, Color up, Intensity up, Attack down, Decay higher than attack, bandwidth NOT "off" ( not center.)
For all tests, I keep all settings on "standard auto-wah" as shown on the picture above (with the elephant, reply #3).
Quoteone more thought; when you "force" the 358 with that pot to pin 3, and then set it so the LED is almost on, does your guitar trigger it then? Still no wah?
No it doesn't, on both Sweep positions. No wah unless i move the extra pot to "force" it.
I am going to do the audio probe test you suggested earlier, and report.
I recorded a guitar line in a looper. I connected the looper to the Spectron IN (nothing in the Spectron Out). I connected the audio probe's ground on the jack IN ground terminal. I connected the audio probe cable to an amp.
When i probe LM358 pin 3 all i hear is a loud pop with a quick flash in the vactrols. No signal not even lousy ( maybe there is something if I turn the amp volume up, but I am scared by the big loud pops).
On pin 1, I hear a continuous "shhhhhhh", like radio statics.
Nothing on pin 2.
I can hear the signal when i probe the tip of the cable coming from the looper, plugged in the IN input, i guess it means my audio probe is working.
I suppose next step, to find the culprit and solve this case, is to probe the audio path you described :
QuoteGuitar to buffer (ic1a.) Buffer through c4, expression jack, sensitivity pot, r5, bandwidth switch and c5 or c6, into pin 2 of opamp ic2a.
Edit : So, no signal on both tl72 pin 1 and 7 (supposed to be Out 1 and 2). No signal on C4 and both exp. jacks tip pads.
I will reflow IC1 and IC3 and try different tl72...
Edit 2 : There is something strange that I can't explain : I do have voltage readings on both tl72 :
IC3 :
pin 1 = 4.55 V
2 = 4.55 V
3 = 4.55V
4 = 0.2 mV
5 = 4.55 V
6 = 4.55 V
7 = 4.55 V
8 = 9.13 V
same on
IC2 (sorry i mean IC1) exept on pin 3 :
pin 1 = 4.55 V
2 = 4.55 V
3 = 3.790 V
4 = 0.2 mV
5 = 4.55 V
6 = 4.55 V
7 = 4.55 V
8 = 9.13 V
I guess my problem is located in the first part of the circuit, RPD, C1, R1, R2, D2, D3. Should I have a signal if I probe them ?
Quote from: idy on December 18, 2021, 09:16:17 PM
In one positions the cathode goes towards ground and the anode goes to the opamp that is supposed to put out DC .....
In the other position the anode goes towards 9v+, and the anode kathode goes to the opamp! Because an opamp can "source or sink current." .....
your opamp voltages - if the output pin, pin 1, reads 4V55, then it has 4V55 at both of its input pins, pins 2 and 3. if pin 1 reads right, but the (usually) non-inverting pin reads low, it indicates meter loading of the biasing resistor. the output voltage is all that matters, if it's right, the inputs are right. carry on.
can I ask - if you set your meter on DC volts, and then short the red and black probes together, what does it read - exactly, please? whenever I see voltage readings on IC ground pins not showing as 0V, in your case 0.2 mV and 0.5 mV on the LM358's, I get worried.
Quote from: duck_arse on December 19, 2021, 08:43:51 AM
can I ask - if you set your meter on DC volts, and then short the red and black probes together, what does it read - exactly, please? whenever I see voltage readings on IC ground pins not showing as 0V, in your case 0.2 mV and 0.5 mV on the LM358's, I get worried.
It reads 0.000 mV after one short second. First it oscillates briefly 0.001/0.002 mV.
on both tl72 pin 4 it reads precisely : 000.1 or 000.2 mV.
on lm358 pin 4, it oscillates a lot and finally reads 000.2 mV.
The meter (VC97A) oscillates alone when the ground clip is connected to the IN ground, and the red probe is free. I guess that's the auto-range feature.
I reflowed almost everything, now i have a signal on both tl72, on C4, on Send and Return, but not on Sensivity and not on the Ext. Trigger pads...looks like it stops there.
Carrying on.
Edit : no continuity between C4 negative side and trigger pads...
Edit 2 : I replaced all wires on trigger pads, sucked out the solder on C4, I do have continuity now.
You can be certain there is no problem with the tl072s. The pedal passes signal (so the buffer is working) and when you "force" it you hear a filter, so the other three opamps (the state variable filter) work also.
Sounds like you are narrowing it down...
I had continuity between C4 and a trigger pad for a brief moment, and then it is gone. I resoldered C4, still no connection. The positive side is connected to D3 though.
I will place a jumper between C4 negative side and the Switch trigger pad ( middle one) to make that connection.
Edit : I have a signal on LM358. It is kind of overdriven on pin 1, cleaner on pin 2 and very faint on pin 3, almost inaudible.
I guess i can put the audio probe away (I hope for a long time) and get back on the previous test.
Yeeeehaaaa ! wouhouuhouuuuuuu !
Vactrols are doing things on their own !
It is wah-ing quite well with the Sweep switch CW, it's not so effective on the other position, unless Bandwith is set downward. Is that to be expected ?
I wonder if I need the extra pot, if I set it on zero resistance, I guess it's as if it wasn't there...
Thank you so much for your help !
This effect sounds amazing, I am going to have so much fun...I can't stop smiling right now. I think I am going to dance...
For a second I thought all was lost, but i listened to Reverend Beat-Man & Izobel Garcia, followed Idy 's suggestions, and hope came back.
Never felt so much relief and joy just by looking at vactrols...
Many thanks !
hallelujah
So about the signal on the 358. The signal goes in pin 2, the inverting input. Where it still sounds clean.
It goes through a diode on the feedback loop, so on the output, pin 1, it sounds distorted.
The + input, pin 3, goes to ground (a crazy place to bias it) through a 22k resistor, so you will hear a faint distorted signal there.
If you are talking about the bias pot, I would try removing it... but if it is the way I suggested, 0 resistance would be 9v on the pin 3, I don't believe you... it might be set to 100k, so then you would have (22/100)x9=1.98. Which wold be about right.
About sweep downward: this is always a weird setting, like a ray gun in a sci-fi film or something, the sweep doesn't sound natural usually. Mark Hammer has explained elsewhere why envelope filters sound funny this way without some tinkering. But here you need to fool with attack and decay and intensity to get a good down sweep.
Bandwidth controls how much bass gets to the detector. I don't know how the Spectron switch is setup (I make Meat Spheres.) One setting lets everything through, one cuts out some bass, the other turns the detector off (center off switch?.) It is normal to get a lot more sweeping, especially on low notes, when the switch is on "full."
Nice to hear you got it sorted! Early Santa this year ;)
What was the problem in the end?
How did you figure out?
(And how you fixed it unless obvious.)
Will begin with my Spectron once Luna and home made wampler inspired All In Diode Galore distortion are done.
Quote from: matopotato on December 23, 2021, 02:32:41 PM
Nice to hear you got it sorted! Early Santa this year ;)
What was the problem in the end?
How did you figure out?
(And how you fixed it unless obvious.)
Will begin with my Spectron once Luna and home made wampler inspired All In Diode Galore distortion are done.
Thanks, I probably made a mistake cutting to deep into the board at the trigger pads, or something went wrong with the soldering.
I had to solder a jumper (see reply #17) on the pcb to restaure continuity with C4.
Enjoy your build !
Thanks/Merci!
:)
EDIT: I see that the intensity and decay jacks are wrong. Will fix, but doubt it is the reason for not functioning.
Hi,
Not sure if I should start a new thread or hope someone finds this one. I'll try here first.
I was hoping not having to end up here, but after just finishing a Spectron today and finding that it works somewhat was quite discouraging.
I cut the bridge and installed the external trigger, but did not test it yet.
The Send Return loop seems to work, but the distortion I put in sounded not very good. Probably due to the pedal not working so the combination is off.
I swapped the red diffused for sensitivity for a bright red. Both shine, but the sensitivity one sometimes is off, or on sometimes drops out during knob turning, but I am guessing it will behave normal if the rest starts working.
The green LEDs light up and are sort of half dimmed most of the time. They do not vary as far as I can see, but mostly they are in the dark so I didn't keep much of an eye on them.
Intensity has no effect. But when I connect expression pedal to it, it did have effect and the pedal as well. But on its own no effect.
Attack no effect
Decay no effect with or without expression pedal
Color a very slight effect depending on second row flips
Sensitivity no effect
Blend seems to work properly
Sweep changes something, when up the Sens LED Brightand the Green LEDs go on brighter than usual. Down and it dims Sens and Greens, almost like bypass but much more quiet.
Bandwidth not much happening. Sometimes a flip changes something but after that nothing
Filter can hear a small crackle when flipped, but not much impact on the pedal effect
Mode does something in Up and Middle, but not much in bottom
Range makes distinct changes
I measured the ICs with stomp on and off. Multimeter shorts at 0.00V. Some values fluctuate slightly between readings.
Stomp off
IC3 (TL072CP closest to range) IC1 (TL072CP) IC2 (LM358P closest to Sweep)
1 4.63 4.63 0.00
2 4.63 4.63 0.00
3 4.62 3.93 0.00
4 0.00 0.00 0.00
5 4.62 4.62 dropping all the time down to 3 area
6 4.63 4.62 5.60
7 4.67 4.62 5.60
8 9.26 9.26 9.25
Stomp on, basically the same values for IC3 and IC1
IC2 (LM358P closest to Sweep)
1 0.00
2 0.00
3 0.00
4 0.00
5 dropping all the time but from 7 ish down
6 7.26
7 7.28
8 9.25
...and now while writing, I checked to verify and readings differ for IC2...
I guess I will have to trace the whole thing for continuity...
Any help is very much appreciated.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gXZX8NfN/20220115-204600.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/gXZX8NfN)
(https://i.postimg.cc/8fd7nskv/20220115-204550.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/8fd7nskv)
Welcome to the meatball clone club.
Once you get those jacks sorted out...
First you need to know how it's supposed to work. I know the Aion docs are good, so read them, but I also recommend the original Meatball docs:
https://www.effectsdatabase.com/model/lovetone/meatball#media (https://www.effectsdatabase.com/model/lovetone/meatball#media)
scroll way down to "documents: manual." Must read.
Then you will at least know what those knobs and switches do and what are some normal "testing configurations." Hint: attack lower that decay. Sensitivity and Intensity on max, Bandwidth on full.
I think you are telling us you are using a red clear LED for your indicator and a pair of green clears for your optocouplers? So you can see what is happening. And the greens are not flashing when you play? (In up sweep they start dark and flash when you play, in down sweep the start bright and dim when you play.)
If the external control is making the effect happen then you know the filter is working, just no trigger yet. Most common problem...
Quote from: idy on January 15, 2022, 04:43:14 PM
Welcome to the meatball clone club.
Once you get those jacks sorted out...
First you need to know how it's supposed to work. I know the Aion docs are good, so read them, but I also recommend the original Meatball docs:
https://www.effectsdatabase.com/model/lovetone/meatball#media (https://www.effectsdatabase.com/model/lovetone/meatball#media)
scroll way down to "documents: manual." Must read.
Then you will at least know what those knobs and switches do and what are some normal "testing configurations." Hint: attack lower that decay. Sensitivity and Intensity on max, Bandwidth on full.
I think you are telling us you are using a red clear LED for your indicator and a pair of green clears for your optocouplers? So you can see what is happening. And the greens are not flashing when you play? (In up sweep they start dark and flash when you play, in down sweep the start bright and dim when you play.)
If the external control is making the effect happen then you know the filter is working, just no trigger yet. Most common problem...
Thanks a lot!
The advantage of having to swap those jacks is that it is now out of the box. So Troubleshooting should be easier. I also swapped the DC jack to an inside mount, which probably says something about my current level of confidence...
DL:ed the meatball manual and will read up on it.
I saw before there were some mention to keep attack lower than decay. I tried with Aion Spectron doc example settings and that had Attack on basically zero (I interpreted the values as "o'clock":s)
Yes red diffused LED for on/off footswitch, and bright red LED for "Sense". This bright one is half-lit or quite full depending on the sweep.
Inside the green LEDs fro optocouplers are either dark/out, or half-dimmed or on the bright side, but there is no variation in their brightness when I play. So no flashing, Only change brightness when I flip some of the switches (not tested in any organized way. Yet. Just trying to get some reaction...)
Sweep up they stay dark and in sweep down they stay bright. Makes sense and I understand better how they should work. Thanks.
I needed to rewire the board more to try the external trigger. I have an EQ that splits the signal, that should work for testing.
Or did you mean "external control" as expression pedal?
Will try things tomorrow.
Again thanks for a quick reply. Needed a little bit of a boost.
One thing to check is that signal is getting to the trigger, the 358. Your audio needs to get to pin 2. It may sound bad there, but it must get through.
Good luck with the boxing-unboxing process during the whole debugging journey !
I was reluctant to use the audio probe but, eventually, it was the key to understand what went wrong on my build.
You should try to audio probe the signal path : see reply #12. This method should save you a lot of time. Once you find a spot where the signal stops, the continuity test can come into play to find the problem.
Quote from: eh la bas ma on January 15, 2022, 05:40:56 PM
Good luck with the boxing-unboxing process during the whole debugging journey !
I was reluctant to use the audio probe but, eventually, it was the key to understand what went wrong on my build.
You should try to audio probe the signal path : see reply #12. This method should save you a lot of time. Once you find a spot where the signal stops, the continuity test can come into play to find the problem.
Thanks!
Yes I decided to not box until figured it out.Will build a probe tomorrow an use looper as tone generator.
Although I do have signal. Just not very much varying and some knobs an switches have no effect. Will probe anyway. At least new tool and skill to learn.
QuoteAlthough I do have signal
I did too, I think the signal goes also in some part of the circuit designed to create the triggering effect.
Quote from: idy on January 15, 2022, 05:33:42 PM
One thing to check is that signal is getting to the trigger, the 358. Your audio needs to get to pin 2. It may sound bad there, but it must get through.
Thanks, will probe. Pin 2 was 0V but should probe w signal tomorrow.
It seems Intensity and Sensitivity knobs are swapped on the Spectron vs original Meatball.
Also the Spectron doc mentions "trigger switch" once only, so not sure which one is meant. Or it is a switch internally in the circuit?
I think "trigger switch" refers to "bandwidth" which does have an "off" position...although the "side chain mod" does use a switching jack to disconnect the signal from the trigger chip. So two ways to turn the trigger off. Maybe we can get the Aion guy to pipe up about that...
Quote from: idy on January 15, 2022, 09:22:04 PM
I think "trigger switch" refers to "bandwidth" which does have an "off" position...although the "side chain mod" does use a switching jack to disconnect the signal from the trigger chip. So two ways to turn the trigger off. Maybe we can get the Aion guy to pipe up about that...
Makes sense. I checked the link to the meatball page you provided and it says:
"Trigger (Off / Full / 1/2)
selects triggering with hull or half bandwidth. In off mode, the effect can be used as a static tone control."
So Bandwidth in Spectron ought to be what was meant in the doc. (imho)
Okey... That was "innaresting".
Built an audioprobe. Running my Trio+ (highly recommendable) with drums bass and guitar lines that I can mix as needed.
And the audio probe on the out.
I did not trace anything, but it was very cool to hear the sound on various points.
I will trace through the schematics, although not sure what to expect.
So first observations:
I tested pin 2 on the LM358P and no signal there. No signal on any of the LM358P pins as far as I could tell.
The TL072CP were playing on some of the pins, so they seem to be in the came to some extent.
Similar for the pots, some play, some are silent.
Then I did some random probing on some of the resistors. Is it safe to say that a resistor should have audio on both sides of it, or no audio on either side?
Some of them have audio on only one side (R2, but that might make sense if it is not really part of the signal path).
Capacitors, similar thing?
Diodes seemed to be one sided or silent, but I need some more "scientific" approach to all this.
(Hate to admit it, but there is an element of "fun" in this despite my disappointment in non-functioning pedal. I guess this is part of the evolution you need to go through to eventually be the winner of "Boutique Pedal Builder of the Year 2032")
The audio varied a lot from bassy muffled to very bright and clear, but I interpret "any audio is good audio" at this point.
The rotaries are not easy for me to understand. I soldered all pins on there, although I suspect you are only using A + 1,2,3,4 and A+ 1,2 respectively. Suppose the 10 an 5 pins that keep them connected are like "in and out". Or perhaps this part is functioning since they affect the "right" stuff. Sweep turns green LEDs on and off as expected, and Range clearly changes the tone at all 4 settings, probably ocatave-ish.
I also tested setting an EQ with two output first. Guitar in and Spectron on one out to the external trigger, other out to the board.
Then the Spectron in and out at the end of the chain.
And there is sound coming out, so I thin kthe ext trigger is working.
Also when the EQ is off, and I assume no splitting is done, it is kind of back to the "very few pots and switches have any effect" mode, but with the EQ on, I sense that more "knobs come into play". But as pointed out, it is a complex pedal that you need to understand how the controls interact and not.
But ext trigger working and if there is any clue in that ext trigger makes stuff better, then I am eager to learn.
But all in all, it sounds at its best quite subdued and several controls don't contribute anything much.
So plan is to read schematics and probe through the signal path. Although I am not sure if there should be audio everywhere.
If I encounter any paths without audio, then recheck soldering.
I suspect not having gotten enough solder to flow in on all places, or perhaps faulty component, but that is probably less likely (in my humble experience)
Stop and simplify.
Almost certainly the one question you need to answer is:
Why is no signal reaching pin 2 of the 358?
We know everything else is working because sound gets through and when you adjust the brightness of the LED the filter...filters. Stop all further speculation, or shelve all further digressions until you answer that question. Did you cut that bridge that bypasses the expression jack? Is that jack wired correctly? ("NC" switching jack?) Where does the sound die?
The only important path now is:
C4 (we know that's good, because that sends sound to both the filter and the trigger.)
"Side chain mod" pads and the jack that it allows
sensitivity pot
R5
bandwidth switch, leading to either C5 or C6.
Quote from: idy on January 16, 2022, 05:08:47 PM
Stop and simplify.
Almost certainly the one question you need to answer is:
Why is no signal reaching pin 2 of the 358?
We know everything else is working because sound gets through and when you adjust the brightness of the LED the filter...filters. Stop all further speculation, or shelve all further digressions until you answer that question. Did you cut that bridge that bypasses the expression jack? Is that jack wired correctly? ("NC" switching jack?) Where does the sound die?
The only important path now is:
C4 (we know that's good, because that sends sound to both the filter and the trigger.)
"Side chain mod" pads and the jack that it allows
sensitivity pot
R5
bandwidth switch, leading to either C5 or C6.
Will do, wasn't aware of the central role of pin 2 on 358.
When cutting the exp bridge I held DMM on pads until it went silent. Then I cut a touch more. Tried after wiring ad well. But no problem going back and check again.
Thanks for guiding me.
The point about cutting that trace: if you had not cut it, you probably would not have the problem you are having.
If you have cut it that external control jack needs to connect those two pads, i.e. if it is wired correctly and it is the right kind of jack, you will still have continuity between those two points! If you don't, that jack is not right.
Quote from: idy on January 17, 2022, 01:10:45 AM
The point about cutting that trace: if you had not cut it, you probably would not have the problem you are having.
If you have cut it that external control jack needs to connect those two pads, i.e. if it is wired correctly and it is the right kind of jack, you will still have continuity between those two points! If you don't, that jack is not right.
Thanks, yes I was beginning to think along those lines. It is an Amphenol, stereo. Same as loop and external ones. Will check it later this week. Again appreciate you steering me in the right direction.
I think I might have found something. There is connectivity from C4 across the sidechain and Sensitivity pot until "start" of R5, but not the other side of R5
From R5 "other side" it connects to the C5 and C6 depending on BW setting to Pin 2 of 358.
I measured R5 and it comes back as 4k7 so R5 in itself seems be good.
So I resolder the joint towards the BW switch, fresh solder. No change.
Then I resolder both R5 pins. No change.
So I have connectivity from C4 to R5 on its closer side (to C4)
Then from the other side or R5 I have connectivity to the Caps depending on BW. And from them to Pin 2 is ok.
Maybe I should remove R5 all together and check the pads or something?
Or bypass them with wire?
Update: I guess the DMM connectivity test does not pass through Resistors. So I will check with the audio probe instead.
So, I set up the audio probe again, and there is sound on Pin 2 on 358!
Guess that is good news.
I also see the green LEDs pulsate with the sound. Sort of.
So maybe the resolder of R5 did make a difference after all, even if my feeble attempts at "measuring it" were the same before and after.
Quite strange. Not very much wiser, but will now try it in more full context.
Well now it seems as if the pots have effect, all of them, but as mentioned earlier a bit dependent on other knob settings.
I was struggling with Mode, but with Range at top position, I think I get some effect from Mode.
Several fiddlings are very soft or hard to recognize, but the audio probe in output jack still sounds quite scaled off, should be better in full context. And I assume having the green LEDs in the darkness of the box will make the effects more prominent.
And any tips as to what settings will show the effect of Filter switch?
Will print cover before assembling fully, so might still take a day or so...
yes, this:
QuoteUpdate: I guess the DMM connectivity test does not pass through Resistors. So I will check with the audio probe instead.
progress.
So the LED is flashing! Congratulations.
Yes, darkness for the Optos! Just cover them, bottle cap, bit of duct tape, whatever you have!
You may want to try a booster pedal so your guitar has enough power to really drive the trigger, you may not need it now that we are using 358.
The filter mode selects highpass, bandpass, lowpass. So treble, mids, lows are emphasized. To the undiscerning they all sound like "wah."
Quote from: idy on January 17, 2022, 01:56:41 PM
progress.
So the LED is flashing! Congratulations.
Thanks!
I will make some water decal print before boxing it again.
I resoldered the Filter switch to get some better reading. Might have been or might have not been badly soldered.
But it has only two settings. And is supposed to "applies a Moog-style quality factor to the filter with
frequency-variable Q instead of the constant Q of the Meatball."
I think the Mode switch gave (ever so) slight variation to the "EQ"
Quote from: idy on January 17, 2022, 01:56:41 PM
To the undiscerning they all sound like "wah."
Yes, now I know which category I begin in... Will aim to work my way to Envelope Filter Nirvana in the future.
The "moog mod" it was called when applied to the Meatspere...
It reduces the resonance of the filter for low frequencies. It makes a difference for bass players. Something about starting earthquakes, breaking windows or blowing out speakers... But on guitar you won't notice. Next time I make one of these I will just make it always on; Bass players need it, guitarists can't hear it, do we really need another switch on this thing?
Quote from: idy on January 17, 2022, 01:56:41 PM
You may want to try a booster pedal so your guitar has enough power to really drive the trigger, you may not need it now that we are using 358.
I noticed the effect gets much more intensity and presence with a volume boost before it. The trigger is very sensitive to the signal's volume. Which is a good thing in my opinion.
I'm glad you managed to solve your issue, dear potato.
And if you do want to make it more sensitive so it works full range with weak pickups, "there's a mod for that..."
Quote from: idy on January 17, 2022, 02:48:31 PM
The "moog mod" it was called when applied to the Meatspere...
It reduces the resonance of the filter for low frequencies. It makes a difference for bass players. Something about starting earthquakes, breaking windows or blowing out speakers... But on guitar you won't notice. Next time I make one of these I will just make it always on; Bass players need it, guitarists can't hear it, do we really need another switch on this thing?
Cool, I'll plug it into the bass board and see. Thanks
Quote from: eh la bas ma on January 17, 2022, 03:09:13 PM
Quote from: idy on January 17, 2022, 01:56:41 PM
You may want to try a booster pedal so your guitar has enough power to really drive the trigger, you may not need it now that we are using 358.
I noticed the effect gets much more intensity and presence with a volume boost before it. The trigger is very sensitive to the signal's volume. Which is a good thing in my opinion.
I'm glad you managed to solve your issue, dear potato.
Merci :)
I have yet to box it up first. Sounds promising, but I've felt like that before. So nothing gained yet. Touch wood.
Quote from: idy on January 17, 2022, 03:19:41 PM
And if you do want to make it more sensitive so it works full range with weak pickups, "there's a mod for that..."
Nice, how difficult, much effort?
100k pot (trimmer) from 9v to pin 3 of 358. Dial it in until LED is just barely off, right at the edge of lighting up the LED. Replace with fixed resistor (next value higher than trimmer.)
Quote from: idy on January 17, 2022, 03:58:27 PM
100k pot (trimmer) from 9v to pin 3 of 358. Dial it in until LED is just barely off, right at the edge of lighting up the LED. Replace with fixed resistor (next value higher than trimmer.)
Hey! Found a 100k laying around. Seems straightforward to try out. And easy enough to remove.
There is a 22k (R6) to ground from pin 3, so the 100k (or what it turns out to be) would act as some voltage divider for pin 3 in cooperation with R6?
Thanks for the tip :-)
Would it run on 12V (think I read that somewhere)? But wouldn't want to chance it.
And would there be much benefit if it did as far as headroom?
(Or I should practice discerning Wah first...)
QuoteThere is a 22k (R6) to ground from pin 3, so the 100k (or what it turns out to be) would act as some voltage divider for pin 3 in cooperation with R6?
precisely.
The Meatball was a "bells and whistles" clone of the Mutron. Mutron ran on bipolar power. Lovetone kept the R to 0v. You are adjusting the bias with a voltage divider.
Orignal Meatball Manual says OK up to 12v, says no to more. What voltage electrolytic caps did you use?
Manual also says higher volts will change frequency response. I don't know about that. At higher volts and high resonance (color) you could really blast people. See warning about bass guitar and necessity for moog mode...
Quote from: idy on January 17, 2022, 06:35:32 PM
Orignal Meatball Manual says OK up to 12v, says no to more. What voltage electrolytic caps did you use?
Manual also says higher volts will change frequency response. I don't know about that. At higher volts and high resonance (color) you could really blast people. See warning about bass guitar and necessity for moog mode...
25V and one 35V, so that should be fine. 072s I think are ok even to 18V.
Will not try in the early days, but perhaps later.
Besides electrolyte caps, what other components would you be watchfulnof regarding raising dc input voltage?
Another question regarding the layout of the switches:
I am assuming the Bandwidth will go (up, mid, down) Half, Full, Off (as meatball) or does it go Full, 1/2, Off (as in some sort of order)? I might be able to hear myself, but plan to print the enclosure decal before assembling it again.
Sweep I have assumed CCW is up and CW is down (as Meatball)
And Range Hi is full CW and Lo is full CCW (as meatball), but come to think of it it might have been more bassy CW and trebly in CCW position... (
Filter I just assume up will mean engaged
Mode I am guessing Hipass is up, Lo pass down and Bandpass in the middle.
Check out the docs. Bandwidth is center off spdt, right?
Center is off.
You will have to check yourself to see which throw of Bandwidth is half and which is full. Which connects to the larger cap (c6?) That is full.
Range: Schematic shows terminals 2-4 adding bigger caps (lower frequency.) So as you turn clockwise, you get lower range.
It looks like the mode toggle gives 1=BP 2=HP 3=LP,
but better to check. The switch hooks one of three IC (output) pins to pin 3 of the Blend pot.
IC3 pin 1 is BP
IC1 pin 7 is HP
IC3 pin 7 is LP
Quote from: idy on January 18, 2022, 06:56:48 PM
You will have to check yourself to see which throw of Bandwidth is half and which is full. Which connects to the larger cap (c6?) That is full.
Ah, now I see. So in middle ot is off as in the rest is out. That was a bigger impact than I understood from the manual an build instruction.
So off is for sure 2. Will measure the others 2.
Quote
Range: Schematic shows terminals 2-4 adding bigger caps (lower frequency.) So as you turn clockwise, you get lower range.
Ok, so is range the interval width or more like the centerpoint?
I will guess the latter. So higher cap is bassier tone, and that is the "Lo" one then.
Quote
It looks like the mode toggle gives 1=BP 2=HP 3=LP,
but better to check. The switch hooks one of three IC (output) pins to pin 3 of the Blend pot.
IC3 pin 1 is BP
IC1 pin 7 is HP
IC3 pin 7 is LP
That switch is a challenge for me to read, so thanks.
Then I will find from connectivity check.
I am planning to add your mod, but with a switch for on/off. Is there any point in keeping the trimpot in? Or once the position is found, tweaking it around adds little compared with on/off?
Again many thanks for your patience. I am learning lots.
No point in keeping trim pot in...unless you decide to try running it on 12v!
So for anyone coming here and wondering the same:
Bandwidth
Up goes to C6 470nF cap. So this should be "Full"
Center is off as in not connected any further. Which explains why Attack, Decay, Intensity and Sweep will be out of play
Down goes to C5 22nF cap. Which leaves this to be "1/2"
For Mode...
Down position makes a connection between Blend pin 3 and IC3 pin1 and this should be Bandpass
Middle position makes a connection between Blend pin 3 and IC1 pin7 should be Highpass
Up position makes a connection between Blend pin 3 and IC3 pin7 should be Lowpass
For Range, I will just have to listen to the effect, although I am still not sure how to connect Hi and Lo on meatball layout, with the sounds I get on Spectron.
Quote from: idy on January 17, 2022, 03:58:27 PM
100k pot (trimmer) from 9v to pin 3 of 358. Dial it in until LED is just barely off, right at the edge of lighting up the LED. Replace with fixed resistor (next value higher than trimmer.)
Should LED be at some working level? Sweep up, run a looper sequence? Or just plain turned on perhaps
QuoteShould LED be at some working level? Sweep up, run a looper sequence? Or just plain turned on perhaps
You set it so when no signal, LED is just below the level of lighting up. Now add some "program," (looper is fine) but it must have separated notes: note, decay, note decay. Is the LED triggering and then getting dark? (You will need to have attack and decay set correctly, will want to check how sensitivity works... The idea of sensitivity is you should be able to use a weak guitar with underfund pickups or a "line level" like a synth or something.
The mod with the trimmer is trying to get the voltage on pin 3 up above zero, but not high enough to light the LED, until you play.
Today I planned to do the "finishing touches" and it seems to be sort of broke...
I trace the signal with Audio Probe, although it sounds worse than when it worked (better). I hear the song, but there is an increasing high-pithed squeal starting at the input actually. Output is more normal...
Anyway, there is signal all the way to 358, pin 2. Pin 3 is quiet, but that feels OK.
But pin 1 is quiet. Although there is like a loud noise pop, and if I hold it there, the pop repeats in shorter intervals, but a bit different in "tone" each time.
D4 sings on the "pin2" side, but has that same pop noise if anything as pin 1 does, yes they are connected so...
I trace a bit further and Attack has the pop as well, but more subdued.
358 pins 5 6 and 7 are quiet/pops
And the same through Attack as well as Decay, although Decay pops louder.
Checking around in the upper part I get audio on blend 2 pins.
Mode as well
IC1 5 and 6 quiet, 7 audio
IC3 pin 1 also audio
IC3 pin 7 gives audio, but goes into feedback soon.
So I'll try to re-solder
358 pin 1 of the socket
D4 D5 and R7
But it sounds as if something is more wrong than a solder this time...
Sorry, adjusted the pots to a more Meatball test setting and the whale settled down
Re-soldered as above, no change.
I tested the mod anyway with the looper and then the trimpot to pin 3 on 358 and +9V, and when I touch pin 3 there is an effect and the green LEDs light up.
Like a transient (?) giving the 358 a boost or sorts.
So there was no clear moment when they dimmed or anything. So the basic fault probably made that test useless, besides trying it out.
Always a lot to unpack. several things are confused.
It did work?
It doesn't now?
LED only flashes when you touch "bias pot" wire to it?
It squeals?
Do not look for audio around the 358, except pin 2. The audio enters pin 2 (that is still happening?) and is rectified by the diodes and comes out as DC. Not audio. This DC feeds and is buffered by the other pins, 5,6,7. Do not look for audio there either.
Squeal sounds like feedback, an oscillation. These things can do that. Turn resonance ("color") down. Click bypass a few times. Sometimes that works.
Quote from: idy on January 20, 2022, 05:46:43 PM
Always a lot to unpack. several things are confused.
It did work?
It doesn't now?
LED only flashes when you touch "bias pot" wire to it?
It squeals?
Do not look for audio around the 358, except pin 2. The audio enters pin 2 (that is still happening?) and is rectified by the diodes and comes out as DC. Not audio. This DC feeds and is buffered by the other pins, 5,6,7. Do not look for audio there either.
Squeal sounds like feedback, an oscillation. These things can do that. Turn resonance ("color") down. Click bypass a few times. Sometimes that works.
Sorry for being unclear.
It did work
And it does not now in a proper way as before
I hear audio in several parts but it is squealy now compared with before.
LED not much action unless I touch certain pointa that pop or makes noise.
The trimtest was just one more.
Ordered some more 358s but no need for them now. Thanks for explaining.
Will try tomorrow.
Yes audio still reach pin 2 on 358.
Went through connectivity check, and as far as I can tell it checks out on the board including pots and jacks.
When powering on and I touch the breakout board I see the green LEDs flicker a bit, and in some angles stay dimly lit. So I suspect there is a weak solder or cable in there.
I resoldered the wires going in to breakoutboard and corresponding on main pcb. And i think it works.
I have been using a single coil strat and swapped to humbucker and that was different!
Now the greens "play along" sort of.
Strat g-string around 9th fret gives clear effect. And chords. Humbucker is more all over.
So this is clearly a pedal once done is just the first step. Now (after paint and boxing) time to learn how to play it. Will try with boost etc in front. I get a feeling it does not have to be first in chain...
So I also tried the mod. Turn off all lights and "barely lit" is not as absolute of a state. I get 62 66 and 72k respectively.
Either I try some more or get a suggestion based on this?
Tried again with more just passed lighting up. Got 73.3k. Then played both guitars and it does fade to black once I let strings ring out.
So that puts it on 75k next std value. Does that seem reasonable?
Since the Spectron sounded good with humbuckers and I also have a bass guitar, i plan on setting an on on spdt to engage or cut the mod.
Still confused about the Range. When most up or cw it souns bassy, but meatball print would say "Hi". And opposite in the down/ccw most way, sounds treblier...
So seems the reverse compared with Meatball. Or my understanding of what range and hi vs lo means is wrong. Anyone can confirm the most cw is bassy and most ccw is trebbly?
Quote
So I also tried the mod. Turn off all lights and "barely lit" is not as absolute of a state. I get 62 66 and 72k respectively.
Either I try some more or get a suggestion based on this?
Tried again with more just passed lighting up. Got 73.3k. Then played both guitars and it does fade to black once I let strings ring out.
So that puts it on 75k next std value. Does that seem reasonable?
Again a lot to unpack and sift through. What results did you get at, 52, 66, 72K? Without knowing that my opinion is not worth much :icon_confused: But around 72 might be OK. Think of it like this: voltage divider: 22k to ground, 75k to 9v. So you are a little less than 1/4 of the way "up from ground." that would be a little less than 1/4 of 9v. Actually about 2 volts. Your (green? ultra bright?) LEDs might have vf up 2 to 3 volts. So you are just 1 volt away from lighting up, or right there...
So you go at it again:
QuoteTried again with more just passed lighting up. Got 73.3k.
Do you mean just enough to keep it lit? or just below, still dark but one more touch and it lights? (The second scenario is the one I am suggesting as good!)
By "let the string ring out" I guess you mean "let the strings fade out?" Yes, that's what you want, when the sound fades the light goes out. Turning "Decay" down will make this quicker. Turning "Decay" up will make that slower.
In my experiments close to 100k was right. The math is then (22k/(100+22k))x9v=1.62 volts. ... using a smaller resistor will bring the volts up, until you get too small and it keeps your LEDs lit all the time....which is no good.
Using a louder signal means this mod is not needed. For years I just always used boosters. Then I decided to tackle and, with advice from more knowledgeable members, "solve" this.
I don't think you need to put the "bias" pot or resistor on a switch. If you want less sensitivity, you turn sensitivity knob down.
If the range knob is the opposite of Meatball, so it goes. Try writing your labels on the other side of the knob (to its left, to its right) and you will find on one side "high" is high and "low" is low.
Quote from: idy on January 22, 2022, 02:17:25 PM
Again a lot to unpack and sift through. What results did you get at, 52, 66, 72K? Without knowing that my opinion is not worth much :icon_confused: But around 72 might be OK. Think of it like this: voltage divider: 22k to ground, 75k to 9v. So you are a little less than 1/4 of the way "up from ground." that would be a little less than 1/4 of 9v. Actually about 2 volts. Your (green? ultra bright?) LEDs might have vf up 2 to 3 volts. So you are just 1 volt away from lighting up, or right there...
It is a messy test for me, I am not that well stocked or organized, but in the total dark I kept trying until it went just dark. A touch of roll back made it light up again.
They are not bright green, they are more like dimmed. They measure 1.96V, but then they are in the circuit, which is always a challenge I've notices, but around 2V makes sense? Also with you calculations...
Quote
Do you mean just enough to keep it lit? or just below, still dark but one more touch and it lights? (The second scenario is the one I am suggesting as good!)
Just below, and a touch lower it lights up
Quote
By "let the string ring out" I guess you mean "let the strings fade out?" Yes, that's what you want, when the sound fades the light goes out. Turning "Decay" down will make this quicker. Turning "Decay" up will make that slower.
Yes, English is not my mother tongue.
I did not experiment with Decay or Sensitivity. Then I will need to have something more permanent set up and not as flimsy as I've done so far.
Although I used the "Standard" dial-in as per the build doc/Meatball manual and it reached the magic point at 73k. IMHO.
Quote
until you get too small and it keeps your LEDs lit all the time....which is no good.
Got that. (as in I understand what you are saying)
So the idea is to keep testing and tweaking Decay and Sensitivity until I see no green come on?
Quote
Using a louder signal means this mod is not needed. For years I just always used boosters. Then I decided to tackle and, with advice from more knowledgeable members, "solve" this.
I don't think you need to put the "bias" pot or resistor on a switch. If you want less sensitivity, you turn sensitivity knob down.
Since I swap between Humbucker and SC and the SC were quite "unresponsive" (for want of a better word), I still think the mod might be useful. A switch will allow me to cut it if I don't want it without having to open the box again.
My plan is to "get everything working" and the box it, and not having to take it out all the time anymore. I think that process might have caused the glitch before.
Quote
If the range knob is the opposite of Meatball, so it goes. Try writing your labels on the other side of the knob (to its left, to its right) and you will find on one side "high" is high and "low" is low.
Sure, I just don't fully understand what is the effect idea behind Hi and Lo range. Is it the frequency interval width? Or is it the center of the frequency interval and then Hi means more trebbly and Lo more bassy?
I am very happy though that it seems to be working properly, and once boxed I hope I can explore the settings and get to know it better.
The effect of the range rotary is to select the range of the filter. Starting low, starting higher, starting very high, starting very very high. (At least they send crazy high to me, like an angry mosquito.)
The filter sweeps from that fixed point, normally up, but there is a switch that lets it swing down towards that point also...
Ah, thanks!
Clearer now
Finally done! Probably Famous Last...
But it does produce sound. It quacks and wahs and does stuff for sure. All knobs contribute with Colour a bit subtle, but I understood they all interact in various amounts depending on the others.
I think the Range ended up upside down so that on "Hi" it is the "bassiest" (sort of), but I'll live with that.
Notice SW corner is a humble and small tribute to the help especially from @idy.
In the gut shot you can see that I went rogue and kept the 100k trimpot in there. I shut down all lights and still come out around 75% of the turn, so I think I am at 75k after all. Now I can try close to 100k and see how that comes out. It does have a big impact on my Strat, so if anyone reading this is planning on doing a Spectron and has SC guitar, I would recommend it.
I must say that this build has been fighting me throughout the whole process, and it would be arrogant to think our journey is yet over. This is a pedal with a mind of its own.
Many many many thanks to you guys who helped me out and cheered me on, it was needed to be able to complete this project.
(https://i.postimg.cc/B8q27QSk/20220206-195343.png) (https://postimg.cc/B8q27QSk)
(https://i.postimg.cc/qtjyPVgR/20220206-195311.png) (https://postimg.cc/qtjyPVgR)
Congrats.
The color is "resonance" and should make a huge difference. At low setting the filter is like turning a tone knob on a guitar, simple filter. At high setting the filter can be quite obnoxious, peaky, peaky, feedback prone, hold on to your hat and "turn that guitar down!"
Did you follow the recommendation of Aion and jumper pins 2 and 3 of the "color" pot?
QuoteIt is strongly recommended to jumper pins 2 and 3 of the Color pot for better control of this parameter
Makes the travel better, not sure why. We all do it...
Looking carefully at the build I have a question: Maybe sensitivity and intensity are switches around label-wise.
On the original (and the meat sphere) the labels are the other way, i.e. the left-most knob is sensitivity. On the schematic they are labeled as original: Sensitivity lowers the input to the detector IC, and intensity dims the LEDs.
On the original and meat sphere there is a clear division of the control panel into two halves: the left side all deals with the trigger: how easy it is to trigger ("sensitivity"), how fast, how long is the decay (three knobs,) and switches to cut bass to the trigger (bandwidth) swap the direction (sweep).
The right side controls the filter: how much feedback it has, how bright the LEDs ("intensity") are, how much filter effect you "blend" in (all pots) and switches to select range and filter type (HP BP HP.)
So I am perturbed to see the labeling. I can't see from the docs if the far left knob is what the schematic calls Sensitivity or is really Intensity. You could check and see if it turns the trigger down or dims the LEDs. (Power off, test for continuity to LEDs or bandwidth switch?)
I am betting only the labeling is changed. But it makes conversation about troubleshooting harder and may have lead to confusion along the way!!!
Quote from: idy on February 06, 2022, 02:38:38 PM
Congrats.
The color is "resonance" and should make a huge difference. At low setting the filter is like turning a tone knob on a guitar, simple filter. At high setting the filter can be quite obnoxious, peaky, peaky, feedback prone, hold on to your hat and "turn that guitar down!"
Did you follow the recommendation of Aion and jumper pins 2 and 3 of the "color" pot?
QuoteIt is strongly recommended to jumper pins 2 and 3 of the Color pot for better control of this parameter
Makes the travel better, not sure why. We all do it...
Thanks!
Yes, I did the colour 2 3 pin jumper.
Quote from: idy on February 06, 2022, 03:12:20 PM
Looking carefully at the build I have a question: Maybe sensitivity and intensity are switches around label-wise.
On the original (and the meat sphere) the labels are the other way, i.e. the left-most knob is sensitivity. On the schematic they are labeled as original: Sensitivity lowers the input to the detector IC, and intensity dims the LEDs.
On the original and meat sphere there is a clear division of the control panel into two halves: the left side all deals with the trigger: how easy it is to trigger ("sensitivity"), how fast, how long is the decay (three knobs,) and switches to cut bass to the trigger (bandwidth) swap the direction (sweep).
The right side controls the filter: how much feedback it has, how bright the LEDs ("intensity") are, how much filter effect you "blend" in (all pots) and switches to select range and filter type (HP BP HP.)
So I am perturbed to see the labeling. I can't see from the docs if the far left knob is what the schematic calls Sensitivity or is really Intensity. You could check and see if it turns the trigger down or dims the LEDs. (Power off, test for continuity to LEDs or bandwidth switch?)
I am betting only the labeling is changed. But it makes conversation about troubleshooting harder and may have lead to confusion along the way!!!
Sharp eyes!
I noticed the same thing when I was comparing Meatball with Spectrum. So I asked Aion FX and he hadn't noticed the side aspect of Meatball. He might adjust in a next release. So the knobs are ok, but I will verify connectivity to make sure.
The decal design and printing was just as obnoxious as the build. Fits...
The Filter switch didn't do much until I plugged in a bass. Seems a lot to discover. Got a first taste of attack decay interaction.
The Colour is jumped pins 2 and 3. Will have to play around more with it.
The potentiometer marked Intensity Connects pins 1 and 2 to R10 (330R) and pin 3 to the Sweep (somewhere)
The on labelled Sensitivity connects Exp jack and ground with pin2 going to R5 (4k7) down by the Bandwidth switch.
So unless the Spectron naming in the schematics got them confused, I would say it checks out.
I tried to find Meatball schematics to compare, but only found other's makes or builds so nothing claiming to be the real deal. I assume you know how well the Spectron schematics match up with the Meatball, and if they do in this regard, I should be fine, albeit with a bit less logic on the layout of the pedal. Could have been worse off....
So that sounds like the names are right, but the layout is changed. Two similar controls are switched around. It is interesting that those two controls have similar effects but work on different parts of the circuit. A designer not in love with knobs would have left one of them out. This is the only Env. Filter I know that has both.