Quick question: (I have searched and found mostly old comments but:)
For GGG Orange Squeezer calls for a couple of 2N5457 JFET's. I do have some
2N5458, and a few J112, are these worth trying or should I just order some 5457's ?
Thanks
2N5457 and 2N5458 specs are more close than each individual type JFET spread..
Meaning, don't even bother for particular JFET type.. :icon_wink:
(although, Rob Strand & Mark Hammer are more apposite persons due to their involvement in particular effect improvement..)
Yeah, I would just go with the 2N5458 that you have on hand, and it should be okay.
The adjustment of the trimpot can be tricky even with a perfect spec jfet, and it may take a few tweaks before it compresses correctly. I cannot remember what voltage I used when I made a clone of it (https://www.instagram.com/p/B8rL5V0HzIC/) or I would post that for you.
Best regards, Jack
Quote from: amz-fx on January 27, 2022, 02:55:05 PM
I made a clone of it (https://www.instagram.com/p/B8rL5V0HzIC/)
:icon_redface: :icon_redface: :icon_redface:
(my bad for not mentioning you, Jack..)
I've traced (one of) the original PCB(s) of a '70s Armstrong OS (from photos, sadly not from having one to hand), and it was visually evident that the JFETs were either SGD or DGS pinouts. I've never encountered a 5457 with that pinout, so it's possible and/or likely that at least some of the original circuits used a different, non-5457, JFET. I got mine to work just fine on breadboard with both BF244As and BF244Bs, and those overlap similarly with 5457s and 5458s, so I'm guessing your 5458s will do nicely. I think I even got a pair of J113s to function during one experiment, but I seem to recall it was much harder to tweak the trimpot, much as Jack describes. As ever with JFETs, plug 'n' play — and pray. :icon_wink:
(https://i.postimg.cc/f3h1WmhP/orgsqz.png) (https://postimg.cc/f3h1WmhP)
You can use 2N5458 for Q1. Other things also operate, but the effects may change slightly. "gm" parameter seem to play a large.(not "IDSS" or "Vgs")
Q2 can select many stocks. It doesn't have to be 2N5457, 5458.
Set the trimmer so that TP is the same as Vgs of Q1.
Dan Armstrong seems to have swapped the D<->S of Q1, but I haven't checked that directly.
Add edit:
If Vgs is too large, it may not be possible to limit a very large signal input. (Vgs>3.0V?)
Quote from: m4268588 on January 27, 2022, 10:12:11 PM
Dan Armstrong seems to have swapped the D<->S of Q1, but I haven't checked that directly.
In theory, it doesn't mind 'cause Drain and Source are fully interchangeable..
I have used 2N5458 in My Orange Squeezer and works just perfect, Even better than 2N5457.
To set the bias I used the same than GGG doc (D1 2.6V D2 4.0V) the sweet point.
I tried some ICs and the LF353p worked the best for me, no distortion and great sound definition.
Advice: Use sockets for Jfets and IC.
Saludos.
Wow, being new at these op amp circuits, I see a big difference in these two schematics in the op amp section, both are the same 4558.
Comments... ie pins 3,6 ect guess I am confused , thanks for help in siferin
GGG
(https://i.postimg.cc/067VYBX5/ggg-osq-sc.png) (https://postimg.cc/067VYBX5)
RGK
(https://i.postimg.cc/qhjXQVsr/orgsqz.png) (https://postimg.cc/qhjXQVsr)
Quote from: Phend on January 28, 2022, 06:29:42 PMWow, being new at these op amp circuits, I see a big difference in these two schematics in the op amp section, both are the same 4558. Comments... ie pins 3,6 ect
Looks same to me. The 4558 is a *dual* opamp. Like a 2-pack of beer. The circuit only needs one opamp, but some years the 4558 was cheaper than contemporary single opamps. If you only need one beer you can drink either one. One designer picked the 321 opamp. The other picked the 567 opamp, and notated that the 321 opamp should be tied-up out of trouble.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FkJT2wTT/OSvs-OS-42.gif) (https://postimg.cc/FkJT2wTT)
Thanks Paul, well put, described in a way I can understand, will take a close look at the pin connections
but don't be grounding the (+) input like it shows, take it to some V/2-ish reference.
Looking at the pinout for 4558, I will use pins 1 2 3 4 8, and 5 6 7 will not be used ie no connection.
Only 4 will go to ground. In other words, use RGK circuit as shown. Thanks m4268588 and Mr. Keen.
Please correct me if this is wrong.
..
I see GGG (which is using the other half) made other connections , ie all pins are used.
all pins must be used on a dual opamp, unless you want to invoke strange things happening. it's just that you can't tie (most) opamp inputs to ground without upsetting them, invoking the strange things, undocumented behaviour. so, tie the input instead to some voltage, like V/2. this is allowed.
QuoteLooks same to me. The 4558 is a *dual* opamp. Like a 2-pack of beer.
I see GGG used the Right Half (B) and RGK used the Left Half (A)
For instance, when using the Right Half as shown in the GGG circuit, do pins 1 2 3 need to be connected as shown.?
(https://i.postimg.cc/9wYTK8FY/4558.png) (https://postimg.cc/9wYTK8FY)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Rq7cWFQJ/4558-ab.png) (https://postimg.cc/Rq7cWFQJ)
It's more wise to replace GND with Vbias / Vref/ VCC/2..
Of course, GND stands for bipolar supply.. :icon_wink:
Quotebut don't be grounding the (+) input like it shows, take it to some V/2-ish reference.
Like duck_arse says
Dan Armstrong seems to leave 5, 6, 7 pins and left. But, It's not good.
Please "improve" them unless you are building a replica.
Correct:
(https://i.postimg.cc/mt92H44t/20221U01.png) (https://postimg.cc/mt92H44t)
^ thanks, you meant RGK I believe, but will do, getting clearer, building on a bb so easy to experiment.
why not use a single opamp like TL071 or LF351? or a 741, and I don't know the JRC single number. 5532? the extra pins problem goes away, then.
When I bought parts for the Micro V I bought extra, hence I have some 4558, then looking for my next project I can across the Orange Squeezer.
Lo and behold, it uses the same 4558. What luck, usually if I don't have bad luck I don't have any luck at all.
Quote from: duck_arse on January 29, 2022, 09:28:46 AM
all pins must be used on a dual opamp, unless you want to invoke strange things happening. it's just that you can't tie (most) opamp inputs to ground without upsetting them, invoking the strange things, undocumented behaviour. so, tie the input instead to some voltage, like V/2. this is allowed.
In this context, that's true because we have a singly supply circuit. But dual supply opamps should ground the non-inverting input and connect output to inverting input, according to TI: https://www.ti.com/lit/an/sboa204a/sboa204a.pdf. (Of course, ground in a dual-supply circuit is like V/2 in a single supply circuit.)
Better still -
use the other opamp channel for something helpful - to
provide the Orange Squeezer with a stable bias supply:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rRjqMyBN/Orange-Squeezer-Biased.png) (https://postimg.cc/rRjqMyBN)
Quote from: duck_arse on January 30, 2022, 08:42:29 AMwhy not use a single opamp like TL071 or LF351? or a 741, ... the extra pins problem goes away, then.
I thought I touched that point?
"...some years the 4558 was cheaper than contemporary single opamps..." (https://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=128642.msg1240116#msg1240116)
Snow over the roof of my car, and my mailbox, is a problem. I don't see extra pins as a "problem".
The general advice to tie unused pins to half supply is good/valid. In the specific case of 4558, V- (Ground) is also valid, no harm results. With the fall of ALL opamp prices and the rise of chip-rolling, maybe this is now a bad practice. There were a few opamps who would go berserk if inputs were tied to V-, and even suck excess current.
Digging deeper into a box of misc parts I found an old Radio Shack LM741 that I used for a flasher circuit 30 years ago. As duck_arse suggested, is this workable in an Orange Squeezer, of course the best way to find out is to try it, DIY style.
I would like to take the opportunity as a electronics self-learning guy to ask somebody to explain how this circuit "physicaly" in terms of kindergarden level for an almost retarded people like me.
Once the signal shows up, part of the signal goes to non-inv opamp and the other part to the Jfets section, this is where things turns impossible to understand to me. I know well how Jfets works but I don´t see the way how they work together.. ..worse, I don´t see the funtion of the Jfet with the 2.4K resistor between gate and source.
Another thing, why the used diode must be a germanium one (Vf 0.3V) and not a regular one Vf 0.7V.. 1N4148 1N4001/7.. ..ETC.
I would like to clear those things... ...I am petroleum engineer from Venezuela, my English is not perfect.
Thank you
Search here for "the technology of the orange squeezer" - I think RG wrote a post some time ago.
Edit: Doesn't seem to show up in forum searches, but it is here: https://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=54308.msg414842#msg414842
LOTS of other posts on the subject as well, but try web search instead of here e.g. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=orange+squeezer+site%3Adiystompboxes.com&t=ffcm&ia=web
Thanks GGBB I will check the sites and try to understand better this circuito. I have read some post but none of them were what I wanted so far.
Percy
I found that if you Search for "Orange" in Building you own stompbox you will get some great history of the OS. Lots of information that will keep you going this way and that !
Search Box: Upper right of the screen
Thank you Phend... ..I will search in here too, that is the first thing I always do with many other circuits but for some reason I've have never done before with Orange Squeezer...
Bread boarding the GGG circuit:
Added electro cap from + to -.
Added protection diode.
Using 1n34.
Trying out J112's.
Connected 1 and 2 of IC1.
Divided voltage for pin 3 per m4268588 using 100k's.
Added a 2.2uf cap from pin 3 to gnd (an OS +++ component).
Did trim adjustment up for just start of gain with next to no noise.
Found resistance of 10K trim and replaced with resistor -500 and a 1K trim.
It is a subtle, I do have an Arion (inexpensive 80's compressor) and use it turned on.
Yes it is subtle but you do know it is there.
I can report that my dyslexia sets in connecting those Jfets, I hear that they are symmetrical, maybe electrically but not physically. Who the heck put pin 3 in the middle on paper and on the end of the actual darn thing.
Still experimenting, might decide to box it up after I add a bypass switch to the BB for a good deciding test.
Voltages of Q1 and Q2 are wacked, battery = 8.2, Trim adjusted for Q2 d=2.5: (J112's)
Q1 d= 8.2 s= 5.3 g= 2.6
Q2 d= 2.5 s= 2.6 g= 0.001 = 0
But it does pass a clean signal....
Adjusting the Trimmer was a bit tricky. So I used Runoffgroove's Fetzer tester (http://www.runoffgroove.com/fetzervalve.html#11) or such a way to checked off-mode Vgs beforehand. (Q2 in GGG schem)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jCs1DFFz/NJF-Vgs-Test.png) (https://postimg.cc/jCs1DFFz)
Install the FET and adjust it to the same voltage. You can change from a slightly if you follow the sound.
I try to get back there when I'm not sure about everything.
Thanks, I am now using 1K , 30 turn? Trim. In series with a 1K8 . Adjusting is much easier.
i repaired a friends boost pedal with a 30 turn pot once, since i didn't have any other pots of that value in my collection at the time. hes still happy about it, as he says it gives him better control over the amount of gain
cheers
I remember trying a few Jfets before selecting the ones with the "right" drain voltages (2.6V / 4.0V) after adjusting the trim. Some of them were to far for those values.
With the 2N5457 I had on hand I could never get the drain voltages according to GGG and the sound were no that good / difined.
That´s why I tried with the 2N5458 and worked the best for me. I could get 2.6V / 4.0V easily, I think maybe I am lucky on it.
I tried 4558/TL072/5532... ..and the best one i could get was LF353P, cero distortion.. ..very subtle and nice sound.
Percy
Without ordering other Jfets , of the two I have , 2n5458 and J112 , J112 wins , swapping them , the Q2 drain remains at 2.60 without adjusting the trim , J112 has much more gain and certainly sounds better. So I shall box it.
I just wanted to show my Orange Squeezer puzzle-box (and some others).. ...I just finished to fit the circuit last night.. ...love it
IC: LF353p
Jfets 2N5458 / Vd 2.6V - 4.0V
(https://i.postimg.cc/xkJV1C5V/OS-01.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xkJV1C5V)
(https://i.postimg.cc/XG9M9zt2/OS-02.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XG9M9zt2)
(https://i.postimg.cc/5jMyDd92/OS-03.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5jMyDd92)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Cn0374gw/OS-04.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Cn0374gw)
(https://i.postimg.cc/MXbHSPXb/OS-05.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MXbHSPXb)
(https://i.postimg.cc/T5cZ4Wdg/OS-06.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/T5cZ4Wdg)
And some other ones: (complete hand made from etching pcb to the enclosures)
(https://i.postimg.cc/8fjTMHBs/Gear-Chain-01.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/8fjTMHBs)
REBOTE 2.5 MOD - PULSAR MOD - PHASER - DIST PLUS MOD - RAT - PURPLE PLEXI 800 - TS 808/9 MOD
(https://i.postimg.cc/DWnFBFd9/PLEXI-DIST-FACE-BC109-02.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/DWnFBFd9)
DISTORTION PLUS MOD - PP 800 - FUZZ FACE BC109 - TS - RANGEMASTER
(https://i.postimg.cc/c6HxpxyZ/PLEXI-800-01.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/c6HxpxyZ)
PUZZLE BOX - PURPLE PLEXI 800
(https://i.postimg.cc/k2r7RWVX/Whats-App-Image-2021-11-03-at-14-04-24.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/k2r7RWVX)
RAT - TUBE SCREAMER 808/9 MOD
(https://i.postimg.cc/bZQpxdb0/Whats-App-Image-2021-11-17-at-12-28-19.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bZQpxdb0)
MINI RAT - PHASER
Saludos desde Venezuela
Percy
Percy,
Q2 d = 2.6v correct?, what does 4.0v represent?
I am new to this.
Thanks
Both values are the voltage of the jfets source pins.. Q1=4.0V / Q2=2.6V
Phend my mistake pointing out like drain voltages!!! (maybe I was thinking something like plexi drive which bias is over the drain pins)!!!
Percy
Thanks Percy
Look up sequence of guitar effects.
That is another topic.
Phend that secuence was just for testing purposes.. ...maybe just for the pictures and yes, that´s another topic.
Saludos desde Venezuela
Percy
Getting back to this Brain Squeezer,
I have tried numerous Q2 Jfet's, and each, come up with a volatage at Q2 Gate of 0.000.
GGG instructions call out for 0.6 volt.
The other voltages are within reason, 0.5 volts.
For instance: mine (GGG)
Q1 G 2.6 (2.4)
Q1 S 4.5 (4.0)
Q1 D 9.4 (8.8 ) battery
Q2 G 0.0 (0.6) ??
Q2 S 2.6 (2.6)
Q2 D 2.6 (2.1 to 2.6)
Is Q2 G at 0.0v reasonable for the Orange Squeezer ?
Or how would I obtain 0.6 (or close) volts ?
Thanks for any comment or discussion.
(https://i.postimg.cc/c66ZRVX0/ggg-osq-sc.png) (https://postimg.cc/c66ZRVX0)
> GGG instructions call out for 0.6 volt.
I don't think that is right. Why would it be 0.6V at idle?
Does it squeeze?
Yes, in that subtle way, but sounds good. Tried J112, J201 and 2N5457 which I got on Amazon and tested them to verify they were Jfets. Using the meter, each type had different Q2 D voltage, however each worked, J201 sounds the best. And it certainly boosts.
follow the DC path on Q2 gate - where does it lead to? where can you get the 0V6 from, under the circumstances?
From a Gate very leaky item, perhaps..??
Checked for 0.6 volts, not found. 0.0v up to Pin 7 of 4558 (+ side of C6).
I have swapped out numerous Q2 with the same result of 0.0v at G.
Have incorporated the changes at Pin 3 (5) suggested by Rob and Mark as shown on the OS +++.
(I am using Pins 5 6 7 8 as shown on GGG) 4 =gnd Pins 2 and 1 are connected.
This produces 4.5v at 1 2 3, 0v at 4, 4.9v at 5, 5.0v at 6 7, and 9v at 8.
This does make the effect work as I see in the u tub videos.
So time to move along. Q2 G = 0
Thanks for the comments
Back to this schematic...
There should be a 0.47 uF decouple cap between Level out and Pin 5 on IC1b.
Is this correct to do ?
Thanks
(https://i.postimg.cc/2bRkty0x/ORANGE-SQUEEZE-WITH-MARK-HAMMER-MODS.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/2bRkty0x)
Quote from: Phend on January 13, 2024, 11:08:02 AMBack to this schematic...
There should be a 0.47 uF decouple cap between Level out and Pin 5 on IC1b.
Is this correct to do ?
Thanks
Yes. DC from the IC1b bias supply needs to be blocked from reaching the anode of D1.
Thanks much GGBB
Quote from: Phend on January 13, 2024, 11:08:02 AM0.47 uF decouple cap between Level out and Pin 5 on IC1b.
Between Level Out and the bias divider (before pin 5).
(https://i.postimg.cc/fJtkJ5By/330k-330k.gif) (https://postimg.cc/fJtkJ5By)
Got it, thanks prr
Quote from: Phend on March 31, 2022, 01:02:57 PMFor instance: mine (GGG)
Q1 G 2.6 (2.4)
Q1 S 4.5 (4.0)
Q1 D 9.4 (8.8 ) battery
Q2 G 0.0 (0.6) ??
Q2 S 2.6 (2.6)
Q2 D 2.6 (2.1 to 2.6)
0.6V on the gate of Q2 is wrong. (for the original schematic in the first post.)
I think when GGG measured it the noise/buzz from the guitar was affecting the results.
If you short the input so there's no crap getting into the audio path the gate of Q2 should read 0V,
which agrees with your measurement. (At least turn the guitar volume down to zero.)
FWIW, your other voltages don't look far off normal. I haven't check what the expected voltage for a 2N5458 as opposed to a 2N5457.
Thanks Rob, I battled that for days, now that I am making another your observation will really help. Thank you much.
On another note, about that capacitor, prr showed an electrolytic. In "general" I have three, ceramic, film and electro. What's the difference in this particular application.
Thanks in advance for any comments on caps usage.
Quote from: Phend on January 14, 2024, 06:38:49 AMThanks Rob, I battled that for days, now that I am making another your observation will really help. Thank you much.
On another note, about that capacitor, prr showed an electrolytic. In "general" I have three, ceramic, film and electro. What's the difference in this particular application.
Thanks in advance for any comments on caps usage
It's electrolytic because of the size. A film would be better bit its bigger unless you use small block package films. Ceramics probably best left out of the audio path.
I'd be tempted to change the 2x330k's for 2x1M and then use a 100nF film.
So having this compressor built in an unethical "breadbox", I was able to easily change out the 330K resistors and change the capacitor. First not changing anything it works very well. The 1M swap made no noticeable sonic difference, to my ears anyway. Any difference was swapping the caps from 104 to 474, I liked the 474 best and the electro 474 over the ceramic 474.
Different thing, (I need to take better notes) I see I put a 2K2 resistor from pin 3 on the Level pot to ground, I lifted it and the volume increased some, so, guessing that is why I put it there in the first place. All that said, the orange squeezer works great after many hours, the cows finally did come home.
Quote from: Phend on January 14, 2024, 12:17:38 PMSo having this compressor built in an unethical "breadbox", I was able to easily change out the 330K resistors and change the capacitor. First not changing anything it works very well. The 1M swap made no noticeable sonic difference, to my ears anyway. Any difference was swapping the caps from 104 to 474, I liked the 474 best and the electro 474 over the ceramic 474.
I'm surprised you can hear the difference between the 104 and the 474 with the 1M resistors in there.
QuoteDifferent thing, (I need to take better notes) I see I put a 2K2 resistor from pin 3 on the Level pot to ground, I lifted it and the volume increased some, so, guessing that is why I put it there in the first place. All that said, the orange squeezer works great after many hours, the cows finally did come home.
A 2k2 will drop the gain a lot. It increase the amount bright boost *but* without changing the cap to compensate the bright frequencies will get pushed up to higher frequencies so only changing the 2k2 might sound like less bright boost.
Another way to get more bright boost is to increase R18. In this case you might need to decrease the cap to keep the bright frequencies the same.
In both of these case if you go for more bright boost you will need to increase R18 to compensate.
One thing about this variant of the pedal is C8 and C11 are quite large. As is they are *just* rolling-off the highs. Probably better to decrease by a factor of 1.3 (upto 2.0). The reason I mention this is increasing R18 will make the treble cut worse, a smaller C11 value would prevent that.
With without playing with the resistors you can tweak the cap value to tune the frequencies where the bright boss operates. This is very much a matter of taste. Some Boss compressors have a bright control but they operate slightly different. The Boss limiters use a different method again.
Rob, that was with the 330K where I could hear a difference. Sorry for not being more clear.
On my Range Master build I made C1 selectable, 472 473 474, this is a great mod, probability to any C1.
Realize this OS cap isn't C1, it's Cx.
On my new built, in process, I will look more at the bright area, I didn't include the bright on the old one, no room in the box.
Hacked my way thru this, the snag being the Gain control did nothing, the Bright control did nothing.
So to begin with I removed C9 from Bright so as to disconnect it from the effect.
On the Gain section I removed R10 and C5 and put them (new) on a small BB.
On my circuit board I had R10 in front of P1, ie P1 connected to C5. Did not work.
Why? A loose connection? I measured R10 and C5 after taking them out OK.
Wired up the test BB with R10 and C5 in the "correct" orientation and vollla it worked.
So the Gain is working in the box. (Can't believe it matters which side of a pot a resistor needs to be)
For the Bright section I was able to tack different values on the circuit and ended up with a 2.2uF ceramic. (My liking anyway.)
You have to know what "compression" sounds like to adjust Bias R7 trim.
The DMM can't hear anything so you can twiddle with Jfet source voltages till your thumb falls off.
The trick, AT least I believe, it to adjust trim until the effect farts out or goes ded.
Then slowly turn it up and you will hear the sound "returning".
Not much further (depending on your trim sensitivity) you will find a good compression spot.
Well time to add the LED.
Hope this helps anyone new to the Orange Squeezer.
Me (hair) v
(https://i.postimg.cc/kVfy4hrG/Me.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kVfy4hrG)
if 5484 were purchased on aliexpress. then even with the marking 5484 it may be field, but not 5484 at all.
there are no real ones anymore. only fakes. (but real smds seem to still be available for purchase)