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DIY Stompboxes => Building your own stompbox => Topic started by: Mark Hammer on August 06, 2022, 04:58:07 PM

Title: Why bother?
Post by: Mark Hammer on August 06, 2022, 04:58:07 PM
A Gibson G-115 amp was posted on a local 2nd hand site, and out of curiosity I thought I'd look at the schematic.  Couldn't find one for the 115, specifically, but the 105 seems awfully close and likely only differs by the number of output transistors and speaker complement.  It's an early-to-mid-'70s solid-state amp with a built-in 4-stage phaser.  One of the controls is labelled "Harmonics", so I took a closer look.  From what I can see here, in this preamp stage, it illuminates a bulb that shines on an LDR, which connects a diode pair to ground.  In other words, it adjust clipping "softness" (that's for you, Vivek).  It does not do so dynamically, or in response to anything else that I can see (e.g., the adjustment of some other parameter, like master volume).  In fact, the additional sub-circuit doesn't seem to do anything that could not be done with a simple pot between those diodes and ground.

So why'd they do it?  Is it because it achieves some sort of custom taper?  Does it result in a resistance value that potentiometers of the era could not achieve?  I'm baffled.  Seems like more than was actually required.

(https://i.postimg.cc/R3bNWSBB/harmonics.gif) (https://postimg.cc/R3bNWSBB)
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Phend on August 06, 2022, 05:35:10 PM
Don't doubt those who could design with pencil paper. Cool looking drawing by the way.
In engineering we did it all the time, add something, change something,  put a screw where it does nothing ( just kidding here).
Sales and upper management didn't even know what they were looking at.
Plus it kept us enginers employed. We made great looking ink drawings on mylar.
When cad came along I remember printing out a quarter scale drawing and the vp looked at it and said "those bearings look small".
Next day printed out a full size drawing and the vp said "that looks a lot better".
So maybe it did do something,  you would have to have been there.
PS all those I worked with there are great people.  We had fun.

Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Fancy Lime on August 07, 2022, 02:33:39 AM
The implementation of the Mid control in the James tone stack is also intriguing. I need to simulate that one. More of a bass-shift but may still be useful.

No Idea about the LDR. Looks pointless to me but that may well be my ignorance talking.

Andy
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: stallik on August 07, 2022, 04:09:04 AM
Drawing states channel 1 - possible that this would cause a bleed of the effect over to subsequent channels?
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: anotherjim on August 07, 2022, 05:05:30 AM
A lamp is bipolar and its filament has some remanence that will smooth the light output. I suspect that combined with the slow response of the LDR, it is envelope control of the clipping threshold.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Vivek on August 07, 2022, 06:08:22 AM
Mad unsupported foolish conjecture:

When you play this amp hard

It's rail voltage drops

so the Lamp brightness changes in a slow way

which changes the LDR with some light/resistance curve and some slow time constants

Leading to change in harmonics based on integrated behavior of how hard you played the Amp in the preceding moments.

Or changes in lamp driver transistor response due to heating up.

Like some kind of sag.


Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Vivek on August 07, 2022, 06:24:36 AM
Quote from: anotherjim on August 07, 2022, 05:05:30 AM
A lamp is bipolar and its filament has some remanence that will smooth the light output. I suspect that combined with the slow response of the LDR, it is envelope control of the clipping threshold.

The only thing that can change the lamp brightness is fluctuations in the rail voltage

or heating of the transistor.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Vivek on August 07, 2022, 06:28:01 AM
Quote from: Mark Hammer on August 06, 2022, 04:58:07 PM
It does not do so dynamically, or in response to anything else that I can see

(https://i.postimg.cc/R3bNWSBB/harmonics.gif) (https://postimg.cc/R3bNWSBB)

Lamp brightness could change based on rail voltage changes

or temperature of the transistor




( oops, I thought I could delete earlier posts and merge into one, but now I find no way to delete my earlier posts)
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Vivek on August 07, 2022, 07:10:28 AM
Quote from: Phend on August 06, 2022, 05:35:10 PM
In engineering we did it all the time, add something, change something,  put a screw where it does nothing ( just kidding here).
So maybe it did do something,  you would have to have been there.

While studying the INTEGRATED PREAMP from TC ELECTRONICS

There was a bit of circuitry that originally helped reduce thump when the preamp was connected/disconnected

The guys who traced this might have got it wrong since they missed out on some essential connections, but they left some stuff behind, and that stuff accomplishes nothing at all.

But now there are more than 3 PCB manufacturers who have bits stuck at the input of their INTEGRATED PREAMP clone, that does absolutely nothing.

I did contact some of these kit manufacturers and they said, good point but we will let the unnecessary bits remain. It did not harm anyone in last few years that we are selling this kit.


(https://i.postimg.cc/c4467fXf/Integrated-pedal-PCB.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Sj3ykY0K)



So you have a point. This light / LDR thing could have been connected in some other way earlier, and did accomplish something more in a previous, more complete avatar. For example, it could have been connected to some type of envelope detector earlier.

Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Fancy Lime on August 07, 2022, 07:30:12 AM
Despite being subject to the human impulse to find rhyme and reason where none may exist as much as the next person, I agree with Vivek that, based on what information we have at this point, it seems most likely that the whole lamp-LDR arrangement is merely a bit of vestigial circuitry that lost its original function sometime during the evolutionary history of the design and simply wasn't expensive enough for the engineers to bother removing it and replacing it with a simple pot-as-variable-resistor.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Gus on August 07, 2022, 08:46:52 AM
One thing it might be

A photocell with out any light can be VERY high resistance so in the off range it is like a open switch

The range of resistance wanted for the harmonics is most likely MUCH lower than the no light on the cell setting

So if you did this with rheostat/potentiometer you would want a control with the switch that opens at the max resistance however most switches on controls work on the beginning of the rotation to turn something on.
So maybe this was cheaper than a custom control and/or they did not want to add another switch to the control panel.

I do like the old solid state preamps
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: anotherjim on August 07, 2022, 09:18:38 AM
Quote from: Vivek on August 07, 2022, 06:28:01 AM
Quote from: Mark Hammer on August 06, 2022, 04:58:07 PM
It does not do so dynamically, or in response to anything else that I can see

(https://i.postimg.cc/R3bNWSBB/harmonics.gif) (https://postimg.cc/R3bNWSBB)

Lamp brightness could change based on rail voltage changes

or temperature of the transistor

Ah yes, I didn't read the scheme right. And yet, is the scheme drawn right? As it is, the transistor avoids the need for a wire-wound pot I suppose.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: ElectricDruid on August 07, 2022, 10:00:20 AM
Quote from: Mark Hammer on August 06, 2022, 04:58:07 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/R3bNWSBB/harmonics.gif) (https://postimg.cc/R3bNWSBB)

Could the -12V be switched from somewhere else, like a footswitch? Then the LDR would provide a on/off action for the clipping.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Elektrojänis on August 07, 2022, 10:21:38 AM
Quote from: Gus on August 07, 2022, 08:46:52 AM
One thing it might be

A photocell with out any light can be VERY high resistance so in the off range it is like a open switch

This is what I thought too... The highest resistance of the LDR:s was probably a lot higher than the pots available. If it needs that high resistance, it's one way to solve it.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: puretube on August 07, 2022, 12:33:50 PM
It`s just a (noiseless/humfree) "remote-control" of the "knee" ...
(crackle not okay!)
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Mark Hammer on August 07, 2022, 02:00:15 PM
Quote from: Gus on August 07, 2022, 08:46:52 AM
One thing it might be

A photocell with out any light can be VERY high resistance so in the off range it is like a open switch

The range of resistance wanted for the harmonics is most likely MUCH lower than the no light on the cell setting

So if you did this with rheostat/potentiometer you would want a control with the switch that opens at the max resistance however most switches on controls work on the beginning of the rotation to turn something on.
So maybe this was cheaper than a custom control and/or they did not want to add another switch to the control panel.

I do like the old solid state preamps

I think Gus nailed it.  Although the question needs to be asked: just how MUCH resistance is required for there to be no audible clipping by those diodes?  I'm not disputing Gus's suggestion at all.  I'm asking for information.  In a number of things I've built, it can only take a couple of kilohms between the diode pair and ground to substantially reduce audible clipping.  But then, those are circuits powered by +9V, and this unit seems to be showing -40V going to the collectors of those input transistors, so I'm a little out of my league, here.

Ton is probably also correct in that the use of a bulb/LDR arrangement allows for the circuit to act a bit like a relay/switch, without actually being one.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Phend on August 07, 2022, 02:40:10 PM
You might want to google this; Peterson Vibrato and Vibrato Lamps for Rhodes Peterson Preamps.
I believe it uses a GE miniature lamp #19.

(https://i.postimg.cc/tsWDBMzg/fig11-8.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tsWDBMzg)
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Elektrojänis on August 07, 2022, 03:33:54 PM
Quote from: Mark Hammer on August 07, 2022, 02:00:15 PM
I think Gus nailed it.  Although the question needs to be asked: just how MUCH resistance is required for there to be no audible clipping by those diodes?  I'm not disputing Gus's suggestion at all.  I'm asking for information.  In a number of things I've built, it can only take a couple of kilohms between the diode pair and ground to substantially reduce audible clipping.  But then, those are circuits powered by +9V, and this unit seems to be showing -40V going to the collectors of those input transistors, so I'm a little out of my league, here.

The engineering department might have had the goal of having a minimum setting where it afffects the signal as little as possible and they did that. And no one just had the idea of testing if 10kohm or 100kohm pot would have reduced it enough for it to be inaudible. After all, distortion with guitars was probably not understood as well as it is now and they probably wanted a setting were there was as little of it as possible. Distortion figure of 0,02% would look a lot better on marketing sheet than 0,1%.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: puretube on August 07, 2022, 04:30:00 PM
No, Mark: not as a switch, but as a variable resistor, remotely controlled (with the added possibility to switch the user-dialed "Harmonix" setting on & off, like ElectricDruid said).
Without the danger of picking up noise/hum by long wires from the panel to the circuit board, when the resistor is set to high (multi-meg) values.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: PRR on August 07, 2022, 04:31:23 PM
Quote from: Phend on August 07, 2022, 02:40:10 PM..I believe it uses a GE miniature lamp #19. (https://i.postimg.cc/tsWDBMzg/fig11-8.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tsWDBMzg)

I remember that wobbling preamp. If that is indeed the bulb, 100mA is a lot for a small pot to control. (LEDs were not even dreamed of yet.)
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Fancy Lime on August 07, 2022, 05:34:21 PM
Quote from: PRR on August 07, 2022, 04:31:23 PM
Quote from: Phend on August 07, 2022, 02:40:10 PM..I believe it uses a GE miniature lamp #19. (https://i.postimg.cc/tsWDBMzg/fig11-8.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tsWDBMzg)

I remember that wobbling preamp. If that is indeed the bulb, 100mA is a lot for a small pot to control. (LEDs were not even dreamed of yet.)
My entry for nitpick of the month: ACTUALLY, the LED predates the BJT by over four decades in terms of prototypes. Dreams of LEDs are as old as the triode tube. But yeah, practically useful devices... I still remember when digital alarm clocks with LED displays were the hot $#!+ and I only had one of them flippy panel things, which I now wish I had kept because how cool were those!

Total range in resistance from tens of Megaohms to a few kiloohms may indeed be the thinking behind the LDR. Although to me, the problem of not getting to near-zero resistance would by far outweigh the advantage of an unnecessarily large Rmax. With an R(c) of 22k on Q2, I doubt that an Rmax of 100k vs 10M would make an audible difference, given that this whole thing is probably not the most hifi amp ever. A few Ohm vs a few kOhm on the other hand may make a real difference here. Of course, the "hard clipping end" of the spectrum may not have been desired, so an Rmin of a few k mat have been just what they wanted. I think we'll need to find out who designed this and track down their descendants to sift through old notes and diary entries to really get into the mindset of the designer. If we feed this extensive research into an advanced AI, it may be able to tell us what the hell they were thinking when they designed this amp.

Andy
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Rob Strand on August 07, 2022, 07:20:44 PM
Mark's beef is why not just use a pot *in series with the diodes*.  I don't know, it's pretty weird.   

The whole set-up is asking for tolerance related variations from unit to unit.  Even if they wanted a funky taper you would think the part tolerances would screw that up a lot more than just a pot with perhaps a parallel resistor added.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: digi2t on August 07, 2022, 09:02:21 PM
I have one. 2x12 version. I've had it since I was 16. I got my first guitar, a Goya strat at 14, had to work for over a year to afford an amp. Anyway, I can confirm that yes, the Harmonic Multiplier part of the amp is truly useless. Soft clipping is a misnomer. It sounds more like there's an opamp in there that's about to poop the bed. It's always stayed at zero. For a while there I thought that maybe the lamp or LDR had gotten weak over the years, and maybe the clipping supposed to be... better? Anyway, I just left it alone. The clean however, is wonderful. Maybe not as rich (and loud) as my Ampeg G212, or as sparkly as a Jazz Chorus, but very respectful. I still have the original speakers, but I replaced them with a pair of Texas Heats.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Rob Strand on August 07, 2022, 09:10:59 PM
QuoteSoft clipping is a misnomer. It sounds more like there's an opamp in there that's about to poop the bed. It's always stayed at zero.

Thinking out allowed: I guess what happens is when the clipper is set to hard (ie. LDR low impedance) the diodes clip the output of the Q2 transistor stage but at the same time limit the swing on the collector of Q2 is resitricted.   When you set it to soft the output of Q2 can swing more and crash harder against the rails.  It could end up sounding harsher and that would undermine the softness, well unless your input is low enough to prevent Q2 clipping.   (I don't agree series resistors soften diodes anyway.)

A more obvious omission is any low-pass filtering after the clipper.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: soggybag on August 08, 2022, 12:06:02 AM
The drawing has "NOTE [1]" is that annotated somewhere what does it say?
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Rob Strand on August 08, 2022, 12:36:29 AM
Quote from: soggybag on August 08, 2022, 12:06:02 AM
The drawing has "NOTE [1]" is that annotated somewhere what does it say?
It's just below and to the right of that annotation:

"[1] To be covered while being serviced."

All that are saying is if the ambient light gets on the LDR you will get inconsistent results.

I'm not sure how the lamp is physically coupled to the LDR.  Since they are using a lamp (which gets warm) they might not seal-up the lamp and the LDR to stop the ambient light getting in.  You might see coupling tubes, covers, or even see a neon lamp (or LED) and LDR taped together.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: PRR on August 08, 2022, 01:02:13 AM
Quote from: Rob Strand on August 07, 2022, 07:20:44 PM
Mark's beef is why not just use a pot *in series with the diodes*. ....

What rating of pot would you specify to dim a 1.4 WATT incandescent?

Remember the worst-case is not half-voltage as it would be for resistor load; the lamp current falls off slower than voltage.

Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Rob Strand on August 08, 2022, 03:17:14 AM
Quote from: PRR on August 08, 2022, 01:02:13 AM
Quote from: Rob Strand on August 07, 2022, 07:20:44 PM
Mark's beef is why not just use a pot *in series with the diodes*. ....

What rating of pot would you specify to dim a 1.4 WATT incandescent?

Remember the worst-case is not half-voltage as it would be for resistor load; the lamp current falls off slower than voltage.
It is possible to work out but the solution isn't convenient for hand calculations.   More of a problem for pots is estimating the power dissipation when the wiper *isn't on full*.   If you set the pot to 1 (on a 0 to 10 scale) the
the power has to be dissipated in 1/10 the physical region of the pot.    For common pots such info is rarely given.

However, Mark's beef is why even use a lamp.  Just put a low power pot in series with the diodes.
no lamp, no power considerations, does the same job.


Just as an example we can use the crappiest lamp model of VL = k * IL^2 and workout the worst case pot dissipation.

Lamp:  1.4W @ 12V we have IL_nom = 117mA and the lamp resistance is RL_nom = VL/IL = 103 ohm, also k = 855.

Suppose now we put a resistance Rs in series with the lamp.
We know that VDC = I * Rs + VL = I Rs + k I^2,
which we can write as k I^2 + I Rs - VDC = 0  ; which is solvable by hand as a quadratic.
For each Rs setting we can calculate I.  Once that is done we
can calculate P_lamp,  P_Rs, Vlamp etc.

Going further we can find which Rs gives the maximum dissipation in the resistor P_Rs.

Going through the motions the maximum power dissipation in Rs occurs when Rs = 2*RL.
So 2/3rd of VDC is across Rs (pot) and 1/3rd of VDC is across RL (the lamp).
When I calculated it out I got:

Rs = 118 ohm,    RL = 59 ohm
V_Rs = 8V,          VL=4V
I = 0.0673 A
P_Rs = 540mW (=2*PL)    PL = 270mW

The current is a bit over half the nominal lamp rating, and the resistance Rs is a little over the nominal lamp resistance

If we use more accurate lamp models, we use the same approach but the calculations need to be done
numerically on a computer.

I may have stuffed up but it looks ball-park.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Mark Hammer on August 08, 2022, 07:32:34 AM
I didn't have a "beef", as much as a bewilderment at why such a complicated approach was being used when, as far as I could tell, there was a much simpler way of doing it.  However, as Gus's post clearly implied, finding a pot that would accomplish,on its own, what the optical arrangement does, would be tough slogging.  So, I'm much less bewildered than before.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: puretube on August 08, 2022, 09:07:23 AM
Quote from: soggybag on August 08, 2022, 12:06:02 AM
The drawing has "NOTE [1]" is that annotated somewhere what does it say?

Go to +400% view here:
https://el34world.com/charts/Schematics/files/Gibson/Gibson_g_105.pdf

Maybe they just took over the LDR-lighting from an older Tube-Amp Tremolo circuit (GA-79RVT),
and replaced the tubes with transistors ... ?
https://www.schematicsunlimited.com/g/gibson/gibson-ga77rvt-crestline-schematic (https://www.schematicsunlimited.com/g/gibson/gibson-ga77rvt-crestline-schematic)
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Rob Strand on August 08, 2022, 08:33:24 PM
QuoteHowever, as Gus's post clearly implied, finding a pot that would accomplish,on its own, what the optical arrangement does, would be tough slogging.  So, I'm much less bewildered than before.
I can see his point.  A wide range of reisistance would allow the clipper to be switched out. 

However, I'm not 100% convinced it can't be done with a pot.
Unfortunately it's one of those devils in the details problems.
It doesn't help we have no info on the lamp or LDR.  (is the lamp even 12V?)

If you look at the original circuit the lamp driver (Q3 etc) is essentially applies a variable
*voltage* to the lamp.
https://postlmg.cc/R3bNWSBB

Here's where I'm not 100% convinced of the extreme wide range of resistance:  The lamp is restricted to about 1.1V to 4.3V. The resistor R7 sets the lower voltage limit and the resistor R8 sets the upper voltage limit.    The circuit deliberately prevents the lamp voltage being set to zero.   It's not a small voltage range but it doesn't go to zero to switch it out.

Here's where the devils in the details comes in:   Where I see the possibility of LDR resistance range being high is LDRs respond to light level (lux) and we can see the lumen output from an incandescent bulb is a strong function of the voltage.  So maybe we don't need to go to zero volts.

(https://i.postimg.cc/0bDBSt2T/incandescent-quantity-vs-voltage.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0bDBSt2T)

It depends on the range of voltage vs the rated lamp voltage.
Nonetheless you can see the possibility of getting wide variations.
Title: Total Harmonic Distortion versus Compliance Resistor
Post by: Vivek on August 09, 2022, 06:55:33 AM
Study of Total Harmonic Distortion versus Compliance Resistor in a Hard clipper

Spice Schematic :
Assumptions:
6Vp signal source with 2K internal resistance
(https://i.postimg.cc/sDc46gVZ/Spice.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9rD9zVwW)

Transient Analysis with Compliance resistor stepped 0.00001, 10, 50, 100, 200, 500, 1K,  2K,  4K, 10k, 50K, 100k, 200k, 400K,2Megs, 5Megs ohms
(https://i.postimg.cc/y8KYd79n/Transient.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tYrHvQBV)

Total Harmonic Distortion Table:

Rc      THD
0.00001 35.15%
10 33.88%
50 29.46%
100 25.37%
200 19.83%
500 11.91%
1000 7.08%
2000 3.86%
4000 1.98%
10000 0.77%
50000 0.14%
100000 0.07%
200000 0.03%
400000 0.02%
2000000 0.01%
5000000 0.01%


Total Harmonic Distortion graph:
(https://i.postimg.cc/tTc4CPtV/THD.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5YwVsXrx)

Observation: This is plotted for 6Vp inputs, and that was meant to represent a guitar signal of max 1Vp going through a gain stage of 6x. Suppose guitar signal is normally 300mvp after the initial attack, the THD for most of the guitar signal will be much lower than the THD at the attack.


Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Vivek on August 09, 2022, 10:09:36 AM
Does the human ear respond linearly or logarithmically to THD ?

Or is it a very complex function similar to the well known Fletcher- Munson and Dunning–Kruger effects ?
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: amptramp on August 09, 2022, 10:14:45 AM
When you are mentioning light output for control of CdS or CdSe photoresistive cells, you should be aware that CdS has a wavelength peak sensitivity of 640 nm and CdSe has a wavelength peak of 790 nm so what we see as visible light does not necessarily correspond to the cells are most sensitive to.  There are some mixed CdS - CdSe cells that have peak response between these wavelengths.  The time response of an incandescent lamp is faster the greater the filament temperature, so the added efficiency of a CdSe photocell at low temperature levels may be overcome by the difficulty in getting good response times.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: iainpunk on August 09, 2022, 10:38:51 AM
Quote from: Vivek on August 09, 2022, 10:09:36 AM
Does the human ear respond linearly of logarithmically to THD ?

Or is it a very complex function similar to the well known Fletcher- Munson and Dunning–Kruger effects ?
iirc i read somewhere that its a reverse log function when it comes to pure sines, and a linear function for complex musical signals. 3% thd on a sine wave is extremely obvious, 3% thd on a guitar is what we consider adding coloration, not even distortion or overdrive.

thd measurements can be thrown off a lot by tone controls as well, the perfect square wave has 48-ish% THD, but a Big muff on its shrillest and its gain cranked can trick the test in giving percentages over 100%, because the tone stack takes out the fundamental sine (100Hz) enough.

than there is intermodulation distortion, which complicates the whole story even more, as it adds non-harmonic distortion, which are quite noticeable, but arent measured with THD.
big parts of corssover distortion and wave folding also add non-harmonic overtones.

THD is a very narrow scope to look at circuits with.

cheers
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Fancy Lime on August 09, 2022, 11:11:45 AM
Quote from: Vivek on August 09, 2022, 10:09:36 AM
Does the human ear respond linearly or logarithmically to THD ?

Or is it a very complex function similar to the well known Fletcher- Munson and Dunning–Kruger effects ?

The equivalent for distortion is called the Herman-Munster or Freddy-Krueger effect.

Sorry, I'll see myself out... Worth it, though  :icon_wink:
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Mark Hammer on August 09, 2022, 02:59:37 PM
Humans likely perceive added harmonic content in logarithmic fashion.  That is, it takes very little increment to harmonic content to be able to hear that increment, when starting out from near zero, and takes much larger increments to be able to detect/perceive that increment when the level is already pretty high.  No different than easily tasting the difference between a 1/4 and 3/8 teaspoon of salt in a litre of water, but having a difficult time tasting the difference between 2 vs 3 tablespoons of salt in a litre of water.

But that's a somewhat instantaneous comparison, similar to when the eye doctor asks you to squint and look through the eyepiece, and then asks "Which of these is clearer to you, number 1 or number 2?".  Under what circumstances would we make such near-instantaneous audio comparisons?

That said, most improvements in audio technology have emerged because listening to a recording of a natural sound, vs the original source, live, resulted in people identifying that there was a little less of X,and maybe a little more Y, in the real thing, when they had the chance to compare.  They might not have been able to tell the difference between Ella Fitzgerald and Memorex in 1972, but probably could in 1952, when tape recording was poorer quality, and again in 1992, when our expectations and standards for sound had increased beyond those in 1972.

EDIT: I realized this may be too obscure a reference for some people, so here is the ad.


So, while it is difficult to identify ANY dimension of perceived intensity or other change (e.g., rate, pitch) that does not correspond to the "power law" in psychophysics, real world instances where we notice it are not always easily identified or replicated.

(And I'm unsure if your mention of Dunning-Krueger was meant as a joke for our benefit, or was a simple misattribution)
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Phend on August 09, 2022, 03:54:13 PM
And don't forget the newear vs oldear factor which can be as high as 10.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: anotherjim on August 09, 2022, 04:57:24 PM
Quote from: iainpunk on August 09, 2022, 10:38:51 AM

THD is a very narrow scope to look at circuits with.

Agree. IMD is the test I look for, but I'm too lazy to do it much myself even though I could. There was a time when some equipment reviewers used test software like RMAA but it all seems to have gone back to cork sniffing.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Rob Strand on August 09, 2022, 05:26:41 PM
QuoteWhen you are mentioning light output for control of CdS or CdSe photoresistive cells, you should be aware that CdS has a wavelength peak sensitivity of 640 nm and CdSe has a wavelength peak of 790 nm so what we see as visible light does not necessarily correspond to the cells are most sensitive to.  There are some mixed CdS - CdSe cells that have peak response between these wavelengths.  The time response of an incandescent lamp is faster the greater the filament temperature, so the added efficiency of a CdSe photocell at low temperature levels may be overcome by the difficulty in getting good response times.
It's a valid point.  When we use lux and lumens units those effects are already taken into account (at least to first order).

Quote
Does the human ear respond linearly or logarithmically to THD ?

Or is it a very complex function similar to the well known Fletcher- Munson and Dunning–Kruger effects ?
You need to use psycho-acoustics.  If you have a certain amount of fizz from distortion it stands out when the spectrum of the fizz is more distant (in frequency) from the wanted signal.   That's why nasty fuzzy distortion
stands out on bass - it clearly sounds like the crap is added to a good signal, not part of it.  Also why hiss stands out while music is playing, but hiss is made worse by the ear's response (Fletcher-Munson) and the fact your brain can separate the hiss out as not being part of the music.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Rob Strand on August 09, 2022, 09:00:38 PM
QuoteIt's a valid point.  When we use lux and lumens units those effects are already taken into account (at least to first order).

FWIW,  in normal operation (and at their rated voltage) incandescent bulbs all have about the same lm/W.   Higher power bulbs produce more lm and smaller bulbs lower lm but the lm/W stays the same (in reality only crudely).

(Like you say) when the voltage changes and the temperature changes the lm/w drops.  This is fairly evident in lm/w on that graph I posted.  The lm/w drops off as the applied voltage is reduced.   So a high powered bulb throttled back to 1W will produce less light output than a 1W bulb operating at it's rated voltage.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Vivek on August 10, 2022, 06:43:15 AM
Quote from: Rob Strand on August 09, 2022, 09:00:38 PM
So a high powered bulb throttled back to 1W will produce less light output than a 1W bulb operating at it's rated voltage.


and different color temperature too, I believe.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on August 10, 2022, 05:26:45 PM
i gave one of these away a couple years ago. i never really spent any time inside it, but as i recall it was a very thick, chewey "chips-ish" phase shift that had a nice wobble like a univibe and the harmonics affected the intensity, or the "width" and chewyness of the effect,  reminiscent of one of them contemporary norlin maestro foot phasers, the one with the rotateable wheels on the sides of it, but then, i may be thinking of something else... so soo many circuits... so little time... ;)
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Rob Strand on August 10, 2022, 05:58:51 PM
Quote from: Vivek on August 10, 2022, 06:43:15 AM
Quote from: Rob Strand on August 09, 2022, 09:00:38 PM
So a high powered bulb throttled back to 1W will produce less light output than a 1W bulb operating at it's rated voltage.

and different color temperature too, I believe.

Definitely, a 1000W bulb operating at 1W would not be visible as most of the radiation is infrared.
Your eye is like a band-pass filter (the CIE curve) for the visible light frequencies.   The radiated energy
is the same as a 1W bulb but the radiation is in the low frequencies.

The lm and lux units try to measure what you see they effectively pass the radiation/light through a band-pass filter.  If the radiation frequencies don't line up with the eye band-pass filter the measurement is low.   lm and lux are numbers which match what we see.

LDRs crudely approximate the eye spectral response.    Not exactly but they have similar filtering behaviour.

The non-linearity of drive vs light level is something which comes into play in the univibes.   That's where the LED builds don't quite match.

Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: brett on August 11, 2022, 10:24:58 PM
Hi.  I'm here to agree that it controls the clipping in a variable, smooth and almost noiseless way.
As to "How much does it control the clipping?" it helps (in my amateurish opinion) to look at the input impedance of the next stage (which 'competes' with for signal/voltage).
If the input impedance is 100k (as an example), and the bulb is fully lit and the LDR is 2k ohms, then it's unbridled clipping.  At the other dnd of the control, with a dark bulb ans 5 M ohms of resistance, there's not much clipping.  slmost none.
When the control is such that the LDR is within +/- 10 x of the input impedance of the next stage, there'll be maximum control of the clipping.
Although this looks mathematically sensible and will show up nicely on an oscilloscope, it seems that subtle changes to clipping aren't much of a change in tone.  eg turn up the gain knob on a Tubescreamer a little bit... almost no change. 
Does any of that make sense?