I have an old EHX Black Finger (Electro Harmonix). I bought it broken off ebay. I opened it up and inside it looks like a bunch of wire were disconnected and removed. Does anyone know where I can find a schematic for this pedal? Or offer some help?
No "free" chemos around much, I have searched few times but did not find. I quess you can buy the schem easily if you have the money and live nearby.
I started to trace it maybe 20 years ago but gave up. Did some drawings around 741 and 3080 and envelope detector (there sure are quite a lot components there, but I like how it sounds...) and tone control (BMP) but dunno if my notes are lost somewhere or not.
I could of course take some photos of my old Black Finger, if someone is interested, with my doughter´s digital camera... I believe old BF is out of production and the new EH models are bettered and enhanced versions and totally new designs, some of them done with tubes and opto. So quess it is legally and ethically correct. If someone knows better please tell.
no one would bite you for that - esp. not on sunday :lol:
had similar problems with tracing a big muff pi de luxe, 20yrs ago - still don`t have the schematic done... (but I know where the notes are);
don`t have a schem of the old BF - sorry.
OK I´ll start to prepare myself to some photos, think we can work out the loose wires with those.
I have planned to construct a compressor from scratch, and I have been thinkin a diode compressor. But don´t know the day, month and year I do it :oops: Old Black Finger is "good" idea source in that context, you get some ideas like "could this and that be improved somehow". But it is nice
sounding device anyhow.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v317/StephenGiles/EHblackfinger.gif)
No, there must be grass to cut, cleaning to do etc.....
Stephen
Did I just hear the sound of multiple right-clicks, all in unison?!
Yes, and my wife is trying to drag me out to walk the dog!
Stephen
Purtube - this one?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v317/StephenGiles/EHdeluxebigmuffpi_sustain.gif)
Stephen
Stephen, my birthday isn't until next week...please! :)
:shock: Wow thanx
I´m off for few hours, some family activities and too beautiful day to stay inside for them, but wait some time until I have time to open my Black Finger
WOW, too!
Thank you, Stephen for my 3 week premature birthday present...
X-act the one with the dubious diodes and - like I thought - the unknown
3-legged thing being a FET...
You guys out there that have played this "DeLuxe", will remember the weekend-long sustain of this lady,
and the from a smooth wail to eeking chainsawing of it.
This one plus a SmallStone is instant Ernie Isley....
Pleased and proud to be of assistance folks!
Stephen
OK here is a photo I took just, all the wires are quite visible I hope
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v411/Nasse/wires.jpg
and some extra photos
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v411/Nasse/boxtop.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v411/Nasse/cardbbox.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v411/Nasse/goldenthroatart.jpg
Black Finger controls from top, original cardboard box with Black Finger logo, Golden Throat Mouth Tube (makes your axe sing) small psychedelic poster that was included in package
ain`t that funky, now?
I`d hoped they print that finger on the new ones, too 8)
Wow, are those mini packs of butter or capacitors?!! :shock: ( 8) )
back in the days, my father left me a lot of caps from the 40`s & 50s, that were glass-cylinders potted with tar
(and stuffed with some wound foil, of course),
which looked quite similar... :)
Well, 2day is my birthday! I get 2 b 41 whether I like it or not. So thanks.
(http://www.tributecity.com/forums/images/smiles/cussing.gif)
RDV
Happy Birthday! :D
Is the Deluxe Big Muff called deluxe because of the additional compressor/sustainer circuit, or does the fuzz section sound better than the standard transistor Big Muff?
Phillip
Happy B-day RickyDon!!!
on topic: because of the comp/sustain - I would not want to compare the fuzz with the classic one...
I really appreciate your help, however the black finger I have is an older version that does not use opamps and has just one spst switch on the front.
Happy birthday, Ricky!!!!!!!!!!!
Happy Birthday Ricky! 8)
Happy Birthday and Many More Ricky!!!!
Peace!
Arn C.
HB to you
HB to you
HB dear Ricky Don Vaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaance...
Happy Birthday to you :D
If you were here, we'd smack you at LEAST 41 times...lol.
Have a great birthday!!!
Thanks for both of those, Steve.
Informed viewers will immediately recognize that while the Deluxe Big Muff was presumably a Soul Preacher and a Big Muff Pi in a box, this schematic looks like nothing of the sort. The "Big Muff" is essentially a Tube Screamer type diodes-in-the-feedback-path distortion, and the Soul Preacher is also different than any schematic I've come across.
There is a mod article in DEVICE issue 1-7 (http://hammer.ampage.org) by Thomas Henry, which discusses series/parallel switching for the unit.
Happy returns Ricky.
wow, I didn't know that the old BF didn't use tubes. Thats kinda funny...I mean, I guess everyone loves tube effects nowadays, so it would sell better that way, but it surprises me that they would "reissue" an effect with the same name with a totally different schematic. Its not even close to the same effect!
the schem I traced some 20yrs ago looks amazingly close to (thank you once again) Stephen`s.
I hadn`t ever drawn the blend/switching part, after the compressor circuit looked so strange to me, with unknown components (FET/diodes),
but the actual pedal (which btw is still opened up since...) must be the series-mod when I think of the sustain...
(a quick breadboarding of the dist-section alone this morning didn`t get close to it...)
I stopped the attempt to trace the complete circuit, after the guy I had borrowed the pedal from, donated it to me when he had bought an MXR comp and a Boogie Mk1...
Quote from: Hal...it surprises me that they would "reissue" an effect with the same name with a totally different schematic. Its not even close to the same effect!
:) :) :) it`s the same with the "RI" Hot Tubes, the "RI" PULSAR, and partly the (Tube) Zipper:
Mike Matthews ("Mr. E-H / Sovtek / New Sensor") sometimes has these nice nostalgic "deja vu`s" or resemblences of his old successful units - so why not name them the same, when they`re doing the same?
Just gotta love that attitude... 8)
Quote from: puretube
This one plus a SmallStone is instant Ernie Isley....
My favorite guitarist :mrgreen: Now I'll have to build both :wink: .
Quote from: chumpitoQuote from: puretube
This one plus a SmallStone is instant Ernie Isley....
My favorite guitarist :mrgreen: Now I'll have to build both :wink: .
Ernie donated these his 2 pedals to BOOTSY (Collins), who took them to Dave Stewart (former Eurythmics), to record "Heart of Stone" with Dave,
using them both on the solo, which reminds of "That Lady" very much;
Bootsy lent them to Dave for his tour, where they were stolen :twisted: .
Dave told me this story...
Did the original Black Finger work very well?
I remember reading disparaging comments about it in that old GP pedal issue, and I've played through one that I hope was broken... :)
Jim
Whenever I hear about the reputation of somethng from long ago, I am always reminded of what the press said at the time about Thomas Edison's wax cylinders that he would use to record your voice (for a fee) at state fairs and such. the newspapers declared that it was impossible to distinguish between the wax recordings and an actual voice. They were amazed. Of course you and I read this and scratch ourheads "What they hell were they thinking?"", but you need to remember that it was the first time, there was nothing to compare it with, and people were amazed that you could simply have something replayable (well, for a little while).
I think whenever you inquire about the reputation of a pedal that is more than 20 years old, and especially one that is more than 25 years old, there are a few things you need to take into account first:
1) What was the availability and quality of the key semiconductors at that time? E.g., what were the noise, input impedance, and current consumption specs of those components that fell in the range of a "musician-focussed" pricepoint? Is it possible to replace a couple of older parts with contemporary ones for a few pennies, and vastly improve the performance?
2) What were the expectations or experiences of musicians/consumers at that time? E.g., were they impressed that such an effect could actually be produced? were there plenty of other comparable devices on the market that did the job better, or perhaps equally poorly? were such things available but normally beyond the means of everyday musicians? Did they know what you *could* do with such a device? (one knob phasers are a good case in point)
3) Did people know how to use the damn thing? Every couple of weeks someone will post a query on-line about the "ideal" order of some pedals, and describe their own signal path. Invariably there will be some sequence that arouses debate. In the case of compressors, after people using them with guitar for several decades, I still find a real dearth of common knowledge about what they do and how to use them. (Of course, how many years have we had tea, and how many folks STILL don't know how to make it properly? :wink: ) In other instances, misunderstandings, or poor information about power requirements, signal requirements, etc., may have hampered
4) Did the device's reputation revolve around the difficulty of operating it or nailing its optimal working circumstances? Envelope-controlled filters and noise gates are perfect examples of this, and plenty of fuzzes needed just the right input signal or the right speakers to go to to sound as good as you hoped for. Similarly, more complex phasers and flangers would often bamboozle technically inexperienced musicians, and lead them to declare "Piece of crap! I can't get the damn thing to work properly!!". Were component-value fluctuations/variability likely to lead to inconsistent copies over time? case in point is the venerable Fuzz Face - they weren't ALL keepers as many folks can tell you. Hell, we routinely complained about fuzzes in 1971 that they wouldn't keep the tone long enough and would falter prematurely when we tried to hold notes. I canb easily recall a period when Telecasters fell out of popular favour because they were too thin-sounding. I was loaned a rosewood Tele in one badn I played in and was genuinely surprised that it sounded better than its reputation suggested.
5) Did the device offer as much control flexibility as it had the potential to or was it set up right? Again, one and two-knob phasers are a great example. It's hard to believe, but the addition of a simple slide switch on many of the one-knob E-H pedals often provided a step up in controllability and tonal options for some musicians. Of course, now we find this a real constraint. There were plenty of cases where the range of control offered by the pedal was exactly what you wanted, maybe too much for the number of degrees of pot rotation, or maybe didn't cover the values you wanted. Maybe there were presets that just didn't match your needs, but they COULD have been turned into variable controls and captured your wildest dreams.
So what about the Black Finger?
Well, first off, as stated, a lot of folks are basically clueless about the workings and operational constraints of compressors, so it shouldn't surprise us that reputation may have been based on feeding it with impedances or signal levels that brought out its worst, or control settings that turned it into a full-time hiss machine. Did they routinely stick it at the front of their signal chain as recommended? Maybe, maybe not.
Second, look what's in it. Hell, I feel squeamish about sticking a 5532 in a compressor and this baby lives on 741's!! Yikes!!. Perhaps a simple chip change would make it behave eloquently and cleanly. Similarly, I have no idea if the house numbered bipolars at the input and output stage were the kind of thing you'd want to stick in a device like a compressor. Did they afford the right/optimal input impedance? Were they consistent or variable as parts? Were they as noise free as you could get in that price range? As for the 3080, well that never stopped the Dynacomp from being popular and it shouldn't here. On the other hand, maybe the envelope time constants for the device (fixed in 2-knob compressors) were chosen a little better in the Dynacomp than in the BF.
Third, TWO batteries? Now there is a 1974 deal breaker. Two batteries meant you couldn't use an adapter, and batteries were expensive...even when you could still get a Radio Shack battery of the month card ( :wink: Now THAT takes me back). Even though the Dynacomp had no adaptor jack at the time, the one-battery requirement made our day.
The bottom line here is that there are a lot of reasons why something that that acquired a golden reputation 25 years ago might leave us going "THIS is what people are paying $400 for on E-bay?", or "I can't see what the problem was. This is as good as anything I can get now.", or "This is a good design for the most part, if you just change this and that."
The Black Finger probably WAS noisy in its typical usage, and probably COULD do with replacing the 741 by something a little better quality. Is it discriminably better or worse than contemporary compressors, after such changes? Maybe, maybe not.
Thanks Mark, but that's a lot of typing! You could've just said "Yes it was a piece of shit," and leave it at that. :)
Jim
Actually, that was the long way of saying people *thought* it was a piece of shit because they didn't know what to do with it and maybe there is a lot that is easily salvageable.
I always read, study, and appreciate his long articles, replies..I look at it like--quiet---the "Hammer" speaks. "Hammer knowledge" is one very important tool I have to further my abilities in effect building. From the wise Hammer, i will learn. Till then-Hammer time :lol:
Hi Mark,
I know where you were going, but I think you were being a little too kind. :)
Jim
(http://img43.exs.cx/img43/1179/Blackfinger.gif)
Jim,
Too kind is all I know how to do!!
The redrawn BF gave me pause to look at the schem for the PAiA "Hot Lyx" compressor. Similar in core design. Both use a 3080 in the feedback loop of an op amp to vary gain. Where the BF has a bipolar input stage, the Hot Lyx uses an op-amp with variable gain. The BF also uses a bipolar recovery stage to compensate for the passive loss through the tone control network. In contrast, the Hot Lyx just plunks a 1k volume pot after that op-amp gain-control stage. However it also sticks an op-amp at the head of the envelope follower section (tapped from the output of the op-amp gain stage), which helps isolate the output level pot from the envelope follower section.
The tone control on the BF was likely included to offset the treble loss that is common to compressors when compression gets cranked. That's a nice motive, but I'm not so sure the BMP hipass/lowpass panning tone control is the optimal way to do it. Assuming the redraw posted immediately above is accurate, the R13/C7 network isn't exactly the best way to keep highs since it forms a lowpass filter rolling off at 1590hz, using the component values listed! T'wer me, I wouldn't build this one just yet, folks.
Question for the cleverer people: What is the practical difference between directly controlling the gain of a 3080, as in the Dynacomp/Ross or Boss CS-2, and using a 3080 to vary the gain of an op-amp, as in the BF and Hot Lyx?
Ok, does anyone have the black finger schematic that I am looking for?? all of the ones you have there use IC's. mine uses transistors.
here is a pic or 2 of it.
(http://web.njit.edu/~mvk2/BF1.jpg)
(http://web.njit.edu/~mvk2/BF2.jpg)[/img]
I think the tone control is what makes this somewhat differrent of other compressors of that time. I remeber that you could dial a deep bassy jazzy tone and a bright trebley sustaining sound too, almost normal at slight over middle position. Anyway dramatic chances possible with just that passive circuit. The hiss is there, and there is annoying distortion when the note decays and sustain is up. Always wondered if it is the 741 or 3080, or both. With fresh batteries it was little better.
I once tried the bassist´s late 70´s Fender Jazz Bass into a Black Finger, after reading that bassists use compressors and several newer amps were equipped with built in compressor. But nasty feedback and squealing resulted, and bass was weak, so quess the freq response is tailored for guitar. Or are 70´s Fender bass pickups that bad, think not???
There was a circuit many years ago in ETI with 13600 or 13700 in the neg feedback loop of 553X opamp, and it was a mic/line compressor, quite large project and pcb pattern, I have that magazine somewhere. Don´t know if the ota in the feedback loop has some benefit for less distortion.
QuoteOk, does anyone have the black finger schematic that I am looking for??
There is sometimes danger that kid goes with the washing water, everybody interested of old but not so popular and common old EH. I have no info about that early model, might be short production time and even rarer example. There was mentioned something in the owners manual of my pedal that Jimi Hendrix used early Black Fingers... thrown away that paper... Maybe that´s true, or just marketing department hype...
Maybe you could find somehow the position of the wires without the schematic, if it is impossible to find. If the wire is connected somewhere at the opposite end, what it is - is it at ground potential or supply voltage, input or output? - you can measure it without doing damage to the circuit. What colour are the broken wires? In my EH battery wires are flexible wire, and other are stiff non-flexible one... The solder point is inside the wire lenght distance somewhere in the circuit board... Is it two battery or one battery device???
I once detected where a wire was originally connected, by carefully looking solder spots with magnifying class under bright light, the sharp short broken wires were clearly visible
A 13700/13600 in the feedback loop is exactly what we have in the Hot Lyx and Black Finger (IC version). Again, I ask the question "What is the difference between directly controlling gain in an OTA for compression, and sticking an OTA in the feedback loop of an op-amp?".
The tone control works exactly the same as a Big Muff Pi, except that the component values are set at different corner frequencies for the highpass and lowpass sections that make up the control, so it will act the same but sound somewhat different.
As for hiss under no-signal conditions, well that's what most compressors DO, my friend. That's also one more reason why limiters are sometimes preferable to compressors. Where limiters will only reduce gain on peaks but NOT increase gain on soft passages, compressors will aim for a constant level by both decreasing peaks and boosting quieter parts. The trouble with compressors is that when your input stage is not the quietest thing around, what you end up boosting is residual hiss. Of course the trouble with limiters is that designing a device to only provide gain reduction above a certain threshold is harder than designing a device that simply makes gain inversely proportional to input level independent of what that level actually is. In that sense, compressor are "dumber" than limiters.
The solution is to: a) feed them a nice hot crisp input signal so that lots of gain reduction can be produced with minimal gain added inside the compressor, b) make sure that everything leading up the the gain reduction element (whether op-amp, OTA or what not) is optimized for low noise (so, use FETs instead of bipolars, or low noise bipolars, low-value metal-film resistors, low-noise op-amps, etc.), and c) keep the compression as light as is practical so that only minimal boosting of softer passages occurs.
good comparason Mark!
never noticed the HLyx and BFinger similiarities.
DO know the HLyx sounds great.
Probably why Paia *still* sells the kit.
the opamp or the OTA.
which is "noiziest"??
my guess is the opamp.
increase gain & U can hear the noise increase with no signal.
OTA, OTOH(heh heh OnTheOtherHand), use a current
to control it's gain. OTA's are used for VCAs all the
time, and operate full on/full off.
the circuit is interesting in that the OTA is in parallel with
the negative feedback resistors. The OTA changes
the gain by changing the apparent resistance of the
feedback. Does the OTA give "more" gain.
Seems like it reduces gain of the opamp.
The Blackfinger also had another almost all transistor model.
It used a 748 opamp also, but it wasn't part of the gain-
controlling circuit.
so Mark,
Quote
Again, I ask the question "What is the difference between directly controlling gain in an OTA for compression, and sticking an OTA in the feedback loop of an op-amp?".
Quote
dang, can't get the quotes 2 work right!!! :(
i would say it gives U "more" control than an OTA by itself.
interesting circuits, interesting folks @ this forum..
afn
tone
R.G.-time...... :wink:
QuoteThe OTA changes
the gain by changing the apparent resistance of the
feedback
here`s where part of the answer lies...
the other thing to take into consideration is the noisefloor/headroom thing
with OTAs, that don`t like more than ~10mV at the input...
so in a compressor, would the OTA be used as "series-regulator",
at the lowest inputsignal moments it would have to amplify with maximum
"gain" (Gm)...
now this small signal at its input has alreadybeen attenuated a hundred times (100k/1k) beforehand (so as not to overdrive the OTA), and now wants to be beefed up to become as loud as the highest inputsignal moments - you get max. amplified noise.
whereas in the FB-loop "anti-parallell-regulator",
the OTA`s max "gain" (Gm) co-incides with the loudest inputsignal,
where the amplified (fedback) noise gets masked...
(only my explanation for personal use :) )
would anybody like to see a schematic of the Standard Memory Man + chorus from 1978.
Johnny
feel free to PM or email it to me...
Hey I have a whole bunch of pictures of the Black Finger Im working on. I posted some pics of the outside and now im giving you pics of the inside. Please let me know if theres anyhting missing and where these wires go. I cant find a schematic so maybe someone can help me.
(http://web.njit.edu/~mvk2/black1.JPG)
(http://web.njit.edu/~mvk2/black2.JPG)
(http://web.njit.edu/~mvk2/black3.JPG)
(http://web.njit.edu/~mvk2/black4.JPG)
(http://web.njit.edu/~mvk2/black5.JPG)
Anyone have any idea at all???? It looks like theres some open holes in the PCB. Does that necessarily mean that components were removed??
hard 2 tell from the pics.
open holes--could B "factory".
Looks like "triangle knob" arrangement.
L2R---Volume-sustain-tone
i count 9 transistors.
is silver "can" an opamp?
maybe a 748?
looks like not the OTA unit.
case looks like my 70s BigMuffPi.
U need to find in and out, pwr and gnd.
feed a signal thru and see where it goes/no goes.
a scope is very helpful.
afn
tone
I´ll comp on that. You need to find if input and output and power leads from battery (is it two or one battery job?) and that power switch and the bypass switch arrangement, looks like no-true-bypass. I could not see any broken wires in the pics, maybe I have not looked enough...
You could quess the input and output stages and tone control might be roughly similar as later version...
:? Can you tell us, if there is a wire with one loose end, where is the opposite end of that wire connected???
Looks like there's a wire missing on the top jack. Is this the input or output?
I can figure out the power no problem, but the thing im most puzzled about is that the tip and sleeve of the out put jack are connected to the SPDT switch by those 2 red wires. (the signal and ground)
a red black finger T-shirt that'll be cool!
anyone wanna buy this thing??? give me a price
20 euros :mrgreen:
But quess posting or shipping it would cost your arm and leg, and last time I received something from States it came in two pieces :x .
But it would have been interesting to know what makes this discrete component forerunner of the 741/3080 version tick.
I think not enough info so nobody can help or have an idea how to fix it. Have you tried to buy the schematic if it is available?