Anybody have an opinion on whether using mil spec wire makes an audible difference in a stompbox? Where can you order it?
It probably just means you're paying 100%-1000% extra for the same thing! :)
Seriously though, it won't make a difference - as long as the wire is physically ok and has low resistance and capacitance (for the shielded varieties) you can use the cheapest wire you can get - or find.
Mike
Depend on what U mean by "mil spec".
Now, teflon-coated wire, used in practically all military
installations, *is* excellent wire.
Won't melt like the PVC wire U get from Mouser or Digikey.
Now, if U R looking for "mojo wire", for "better tone",
well, step right up, have i got a deal 4 U....infinite frequency
response wire. Guaranteed to make any guitar player sound
like EricClapton. Go for the wire, Luke. And a cup o'java 2.
staywired
tone
Hype.
Andrew
hype
The military specifies many things that may or may not make a difference to you. For instance mil-spec logic circuits are specified ...slower... than the civilian counterpart, for in-spec operation over a wider temp range. That kind of thing doesn't help.
I agree with Toneman. Yes, there will be no audible difference, but the wire itself is much nicer to work with. You can make up proper screen terminations with heatshrink sleeving etc and the wire does not suffer heat damage and does not shrink. Rework is much easier as you are much less likely to damage the insulation in the process. So, if I had the choice and the price was reasonable, I would buy it every time. The screened stuff I used to work with also had a much smaller cross-section than the equivalent commercial grade stuff. This may be an advantage if you are wiring up complex looms similar to some of Cornish's equipment.
"audible difference"?
Never in a billion years.
Electric guitars and guitar amps are not even Hi Fi to begin with, and then you are adding a stomp box with Lo Fi specs too. So you end up with a pretty narrow bandwidth and you will certainly not hear any difference from the wire.
Slightly OT but have any of you read the specs dealing with the destruction and disposal of hard disc and other magnetic data storage media? It's outright lunacy!
Teflon is nice for tube amps because of all the wiring involved. It is stiff and stays in place. Also doesn't melt as easily which is handy. Not saying it's "all that" but I like working with it on amp builds.
As for pedals I don't think it's that significant. IMO, if you have to brag about your choice of wire in order to sell a pedal, it must not be that interesting to begin with...
Doug
Quote from: R.G.For instance mil-spec logic circuits are specified ...slower... than the civilian counterpart, for in-spec operation over a wider temp range. That kind of thing doesn't help.
Flight hardware that is sent into space needs to be radiation-hardened, which slows things down considerably too.
Doug
audibility: MoJo...
Quote from: Doug_HQuote from: R.G.For instance mil-spec logic circuits are specified ...slower... than the civilian counterpart, for in-spec operation over a wider temp range. That kind of thing doesn't help.
Flight hardware that is sent into space needs to be radiation-hardened, which slows things down considerably too.
Doug
How does that work then i.e. the slowing down effect?
Here is another thing I cannot overemphasize enough:
WHAT "WORKS" IN HI FIDELITY AUDIO REPRODUCTION OF WIDE BANDWIDTH MUSICAL SIGNALS WILL NOT NECESSARILY "WORK" OR EVEN HAVE ANY IMPACT (AND OCCASIONALLY DETRIMENTAL IMPACT - THINK THE "ADVANTAGES" OF LOADING DOWN SINGLE-COIL PICKUPS) ON SINGLE-INSTRUMENT SIGNAL SOURCES OF A ROCK AND ROLL NATURE.
If one made a habit of recording low-impedance pickups directly into the mixing board, then MAYBE mil-spec wire MIGHT have a beneficial impact. How on earth it could have ANY audible impact once normal high-impedance pickups go through several stages of distortion into a 4 x 12" cabinet that rolls off starting around 5khz is beyond both myself and all reason.
Some stuff IS mojo.
Some stuff is not mojo in the hi-fi sound reproduction domain, but IS mojo when it comes to musical instruments.
Some stuff is not mojo when it comes to music reproduction or recording individual wide bandwidth instruments like acoustic guitar, drums, piano, or synth, but IS mojo when it comes to medium to low bandwidth sources like electric guitar.
Ya gotta keep 'em separated.
Thanks for the opinions. I'll spend my money on other stuff than hype wire. :D I've seen some boutiques claiming that they use only mil spec wire for utimate sound quality. I guess you have to hype something to market yet another TS clone.
This reminds me of a power cord that was 250 bucks for a guitar amp claiming that it will make your rig sound better...never mind the cheap romex the electricity has to go through to get to that 250 dollar power cord. What about a $15 (at best) 1/4" cable feeding that "boutique" TS Clone...and the 5 cent resistors that signal has to go through.....
We could go on and on couldn't we ! :D
Quote from: davebungoQuote from: Doug_H
Flight hardware that is sent into space needs to be radiation-hardened, which slows things down considerably too.
Doug
How does that work then i.e. the slowing down effect?
This applies to digital embedded systems stuff. In order to make the hardware more robust and less susceptible to radioactive particles, larger geometry is typically used when manufacturing the chips. This limits cpu speeds, for example. The high speeds of your desktop PC are typically achieved through using smaller geometry in the chips.
Of course, this has absolutely nothing to do with wire types used in pedals, just an aside in response to R.G.'s mil-spec comments.
Doug
Has anyone actually compared the cost of Teflon orPTFE coated wire against the run-of-the-mill PVC stuff out of interest?
I think we need to separate the debate a little here. I think mostly everyone agrees that there will be no audible benefit to using so called mil-spec wire and it seems to be getting a bad press as a result. What should be getting a bad press is the hype surounding things like this. Mil-spec wire is definitely better "quality" and easier to work with in my opinion. If the cost isn't prohibitive (I don't know if this is the case) then I see only good reason to use it. It certainly ain't any worse.
Quote from: davebungoHas anyone actually compared the cost of Teflon orPTFE coated wire against the run-of-the-mill PVC stuff out of interest?
I think we need to separate the debate a little here. I think mostly everyone agrees that there will be no audible benefit to using so called mil-spec wire and it seems to be getting a bad press as a result. What should be getting a bad press is the hype surounding things like this. Mil-spec wire is definitely better "quality" and easier to work with in my opinion. If the cost isn't prohibitive (I don't know if this is the case) then I see only good reason to use it. It certainly ain't any worse.
I haven't done a direct comparison lately but teflon wire is more expensive.
I don't see a practical benefit with using teflon in a pedal because pedal wire runs are usually so short. As I mentioned before, the main benefit for me is how the stiffness aids in avoiding clutter in the longer runs required in amp wiring.
FWIW, I have seen a NASA tech brief that mentioned that in the long term teflon absorbs moisture and deteriorates. Not sure what "long term" is, but that could actually make it a worse candidate. Haven't looked at the data in a while, I'd have to dig that up.
I agree that there may be other advantages/disadvantages of different types of wire that get glossed over when people start discussing the audio mojo stuff. For example, I prefer multi-strand over single-strand. Many prefer single-strand because of ease of working with it but I just don't trust it.
Doug
QuoteThis reminds me of a power cord that was 250 bucks for a guitar amp claiming that it will make your rig sound better...never mind the cheap romex the electricity has to go through to get to that 250 dollar power cord.
Good point.
Now, if we were talking
oxygen free mil-spec teflon wire, that would definitely be the stuff that dreams are made of! Yeah, right... :roll:
This is the same kind of nonsense as using solid core silver wire in tube amps. No one is ever going to hear the difference between copper and silver wires in wires that are only 4"-6" long. 8)
length does matter! : if you listen long enough... you`ll hear the diff`rence
Quotelength does matter! : if you listen long enough... you`ll hear the diff`rence
Are you messin' with me? I don't see how a couple inches of wire could make an audible difference, unless of course we were talking about the difference between a circuit oscillating or not. Anyhow, I would buy into fatter gage wire before I would silver wire or "oxygen free" wire.
I've always been extremely sceptical about the different qualities and sound of different audio cables. We've all seen people in Hi-fi stores trying out different cables to go between their CD and amp and guitar cables that has a marking on one plug which is supposed to always be connect to the same side (guitar or amp).
As long as the wires aren't extremely long, have isolation and isn't damaged in some way and where the leads are made in copper (or some other metal with good electrical leading capabilities) - I can't see how there would be any audiable effects of different wires.
As far as cables - well there is the issue of capacitance and so on... But, I mean, it can't really be that of a difference, can it? There was an interwiev with some bass player in a Swedish magazine who provoced me bu saying that the sound of George L's is more "dry" than the sound of some other cable which was "fatter"... I use the George L's for my pedal board only because they are known to be good cables, not because they sound "dry".
Oh well, maybe some people have "golden ears"...
Where teflon wire MIGHT be useful, is in repairs.
I've been told you can push it down thru a via (double layer PCB metal sided hole) for example. The teflon keeps insulating. And it would be nice doing a jumper from one chip leg to another, to not have the insulation shrivel up!!
So keep it in the service kit!
And those $$$$ power cords must have MEGA MOJO to overcome the 1,000+ KM of crusty alumimium & steel cable the power comes from the generator :o
Quote from: Paul MarossyQuotelength does matter! : if you listen long enough... you`ll hear the diff`rence
Are you messin' with me?.
Paul: you oughtta know me well enough to know that was a mo-joke...
(err, I shudda
stressed >long<...) :oops: :lol:
Coming to this post late... If you were to ask this question in a home audio(phile) amp builder forum you will probably start a civil war. It wouldn't so much be about whether the wire is mil spec or not but what dialectic and what the wire content is. I recently build three identical tube amps each with completely different signal and grounding wire types and for the love of El Jeffe I cannot tell the difference. I have been a professional musician for most of my adult life and I think I have a pretty good ear. I would love to think that silver wire has very identifiable sonic characteristics especially against long crystal copper... but when blind tested, I just can't tell them apart. I am just a simple caveman.
you`ll hear the silver with a full-range-and-over OT thru ribbon-speakers, and after having out-millered the circuit-topology... :P :lol: :wink:
See what I mean... here they come.
Erik: thanks for reminding me to put in the smileys in above post :D !
(don`t over-rate me: "pure-tube" to me stands for "tube-only",
not for: "high-end" or "audio-phile"...). :wink:
Quote from: SamAs far as cables - well there is the issue of capacitance and so on... But, I mean, it can't really be that of a difference, can it? There was an interwiev with some bass player in a Swedish magazine who provoced me bu saying that the sound of George L's is more "dry" than the sound of some other cable which was "fatter"... I use the George L's for my pedal board only because they are known to be good cables, not because they sound "dry".
Oh well, maybe some people have "golden ears"...
Actually - i've noticed that too... I can definately hear the difference between a 15' George L and a 15' Canare. (I like Canare's better.) But - those are much longer than two-inch cable hookups.
Actually - when it comes to the difference in cables and transistors and diodes and blabbity blab blab blab... I can generally FEEL the difference under my fingers before I can hear it... Like with the cables - I wouldn't be able to tell the difference if it were someone else playing - but I CAN tell the difference when I play through it.
It's probably all in my head, actually... I like to think I at least have silver ears, though...
-CH
...and some stuff is not mojo for instruments, but is for HiFi. Constructing CD-player casings out of tone-wood grade rosewood to "improve resonance and sonic quality" of your cd-player comes to mind ;)
That stuff is *brilliant* as far as humour is concerned.
Cabezahead: I use Neutrik, GeorgeL, Monacor and some other cables, both in the studio and in the band. I have NEVER come across a good-quality cable that made an audible difference, and I firmly believe that measurements will back this up. I do not believe it is possible to hear things that we cannot measure (assuming you're measuring the correct parameter!). There have been several good threads on this, if you're interested do a search.
I HAVE heard cables have an audible impact, but these were invariably crappy cables, measurably faulty, and were thrown out.
A double-blind test would definitely be interesting here. You wouldn't believe how often I *really* heard something that I subsequently couldn't pick out in a DB test.... And I would have sworn to being able to distinguish....Psychoacoustics are very, very powerful...
Wait a minute... I have a High-Z input on my amp, an active bass and I usually run a MOSboost as first thing on the pedalboard, too. With high-impedance pickups, LONG lines and not-too-high inputZ's on your amp, maybe you actually could get into audible audio, or affect the pickups resonance.... I think that was tackled as well in those threads, complete with math. Probably RG, come to think of it ;)
I would be surprised, though - the effects are either above audio, or too small to notice.
It does bring up the issue that it *appears* to be possible to hear ABOVE 20k! Hmm.
GeorgeL is nice and compact, isn't it? Great for a pedalboard.
I thought you were messin' with me tube-only, uh I mean puretube. :wink:
I think a lot of this stuff is in the realm of physcoacoustics. I think a true test would be to have non-musician non-audiofool types do a listening test between identical circuits with various wire types and cables. If they can't hear anything then I question if the average musician can, either. Especially if they play loud music a lot - usually the first thing to go in your hearing is the high frequencies...
I love psycho-acoustical phenomena - but most of that mojo stuff to me is "para-psycho-acoustics"
(have you sharpied the rims of your CDs lately? :P )
"para-psycho-acoustics"
A new word has been coined!! :lol:
Unfortunately, there is a lot of truth in that one little word. I guess some people will believe anything.
" invariably crappy cables, measurably faulty,"
What is your method for testing for faulty cables ?
Quote from: Mike Burgundy
A double-blind test would definitely be interesting here. You wouldn't believe how often I *really* heard something that I subsequently couldn't pick out in a DB test.... And I would have sworn to being able to distinguish....Psychoacoustics are very, very powerful...
I would certainly believe it. I recently built a dual bypass box, and have found that the effects I heard when *manually* bypassing a box by unplugging it from my chain, are nowhere near as pronounced when I do a
sort of DB test with a 3PDT.
Kerry M
PS. Maybe I should have used mil spec wire for my bypass box! :wink: