I'm trying to make a BSIAB2, but can't get the PnP to transfer to my copper board.
I've done a transfer before, following the excellent Tonepad photo essay. That was for a Phase45 (http://remmelt.com/electro/#phase45), which turned out beyond all expectations (good.) I've saved the spent PnP from that one and the transfer is so clean and beautiful... I don't know what I'm doing wrong this time! I'm using the same sheet of copper board and PnP as last time.
First try: no transfer for a long time, turned up the heat a little, still nothing, more heat, too much pressure, the PnP slid and messed it up.
Second try: again no transfer for a long time, more heat, WAY too much heat which shrunk the PnP, messing up the transfer.
Third try, with different printer: no transfer at all. Low heat, ten minutes of rubbing, leaving the iron on, pressing, then more heat, same thing, than so much heat that something should at least come off, still no transfer. There is NOTHING on the copper. Gave up.
The first and second try at least gave me transfer, although it was bad. The third try not even that. I have cleaned the board thoroughly, am printing on the right side of the PnP, doing everything step by step according to the photo essay, nothing.
- Can the Press n Peel go bad? It is kind of old (months, not years) but it looks OK and I've stored it in a dark and reasonably cool place. No direct sunlight.
- Can it be that it doesn't work with all toner brands?
- What kind of heat do you people use? Which setting on the iron? (Preferably the one, two or three dots answer :) )
Any tips greatly appreciated!
I usually got my iron on the two dot setting (just before steam).
I had mixed results to start with but found that the key is to really clean the copper board using PCB cleaner, you may be able to use lighter fuel but I'm not sure. So long as the surface is clean and no grease exists you will get quality results. I found that I got to concerntrate around the edges as this is where it usually fails. My PNP is around 4months old and I don't have any problems. Toner is Toner, so you should be ok. My tip for trouble free PNP;
1. Properly clean the board using PCB cleaner or something similar so there is no grease/grime whatsoever
2. Correct Iron setting so it's just before steam but you may need to experiemnt with settings
3. Work the edges well and go with circular motions for 30sec and flat heat for 30/60 sec.
You must have laser printer? Sand the edges and borders well. The heat must be just right.I must learn more English ;D. I leave the iron on top of the board for about 5 minutes (two dot)and the magic happens every time.
Hope you find the solution.
Just so you know you are not the only one, It usually takes me about three tries to get a good transfer. I have tried to duplicate my method when it works right but can't seem to do it two times in a row. The good news is, pedal PCB's are small and you can fit maybe six transfers on one sheet of Press and Peel!
Yes, make sure you sand the edges of the PCB.
A lot of people swear by this stuff and the price is right, so I dont knock it- but when I start making PCB's again, think I will invest in some sort of photo-chemical process.
scott
Thanks for the suggestions so far! I am indeed using a laser printer (got an old one from work, thanks work!)
I didn't clean the board with alcohol or anything, just used an iron sponge, like a scouring pad, to take off the old PnP, then cleaned it up with a regular sponge and some soap (sponge like this: http://www.antoon-aquarium.nl/2d7cfab10.jpg)
Will try alcohol or some other degreasing method tomorrow.
:icon_confused:
I can't figure out why you're having an issue with PnP blue, I haven't had any problems and I get a quality transfer everytime.
One of the keys to success is the surface of the blank has to be shiny clean. :)
maybe you have the pnp the wrong way around???
I just use a steel wool/soap pad, too. Got a couple different kinds of degreaser, guess I should try that.
Thanks, Welsh,
scott
steel wool to remove the oxidation on the copper - get the board bright and shiny with the wool, then just a soapy rub and rinse with hot water!
clean paper towel to dry, and always handle the board at this point by the edges -ie; no finger oil or other contamination. hope this helps ...Rick
I give the board a scrub with steel wool, then sand it will really fine wet and dry sand paper, then clean it with a tissue and methylated spirits. I also have the iron on full heat and iron for at least 5 mins (usually closer to 6). Make sure you cool it under a cold water tap thoroughly too before you peel it off, that's something I didn't do at first and found a lot of them stuffed up
I now see the error of my ways! I expected the PnP to stick while the board was still hot, and it only works when it cools off. I also cleaned to board with Russky Standart (a very good vodka.)
Note to self: no peeking while ironing. Firm pressure, laying the iron on top for a while, more pressure, etc. No peeking! Our iron seems to be cooler than most, so a tad over the second dot is OK.
The magic happens when COOLING THE BOARD. Cool the board all the way through, peek under one side, if no good apply the iron again. Cool the board thoroughly.
Handy tip: sheet of paper over the board+PnP, so the PnP won't slide.
PS, thanks for all the tips and help!
Congratulations!
Quote from: remmelt on April 01, 2007, 07:50:56 AM
Handy tip: sheet of paper over the board+PnP, so the PnP won't slide.
The paper that comes with Iron-On T-shirt transfers would be ideal for this!
I don't bother with alcohol cleaning and all that jazz - there's no need. I just scrub with a Brillo pad (steel wool impregnated with detergent) until the board is clean and shiny. I don't sand super smooth as I think that a little bit of grain helps the toner adhere. I shake most of the water off then dab dry with a paper towel, taking care not to touch the board with my fingers. When I apply the PnP, I don't use anything between the Pnp and the iron. I find that the PnP discolours slightly (blue gets slightyl paler) when the heat is applied directly for the right amount of time (iron hot enough to produce steam, steam turned off). Its usually at least 5 minutes for an average-sized board. I pay close attention to the edges. I then quench in cold running water and peel off. I get consistently good results.
I really haven't had any luck quenching the board with cold water. If you wet it, and then start to peel back, and it didnt take, you now have water on the pcb side of the board! I know most people would just scrub off the pnp that stuck and reapply a new layout, but that just seems wasteful to me, when there is a good chance you can still make this sheet work.
What I do is once I'm sure the pnp has adhered well, I put a glass of ice water on the top of the pcb for 5 to 10 minutes. walk away! dont look, just let it do its work. If you dont fancy that, use a different heat sink. A mirror, or an enclosure. Just keep moving the pcb to a cold part of the enclosure.
When you touch the pcb, you should feel little to no residual heat.
That's how I roll!
And this, good people, is how I roll:
(http://remmelt.com/media/tin.jpg)
I used a tin solution to make it all nice and shiny. I think it's my new favourite chemical, it works so well. Next time I'll even put the PnP on straight, I promise. For now it has a definite DIY feel, doesn't it?
Quote from: markm on April 01, 2007, 08:31:28 AM
Congratulations!
Quote from: remmelt on April 01, 2007, 07:50:56 AM
Handy tip: sheet of paper over the board+PnP, so the PnP won't slide.
The paper that comes with Iron-On T-shirt transfers would be ideal for this!
I never use PNP, always use inktjet picture paper:
-for me it's about 20 times cheaper (central Europe)
-you can keep your iron maxxed out and never will overheat the transfer
-the paper peels off by itself afterwards
Use inktjet picture paper with a "papery" back, not synthetic otherwise your iron will stick to the metal.
Essential extra step is punching the tonerless white areas with a needle or exacto knife, especially in places where the traces are close together. This punching trick will help the air to escape from underneath the toner fast and make for strong and fast adherence to the copper.
http://modman.blogdrive.com/archive/30.html
or if you want to go straight to the video, click here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snileUK7PQg
in the last 10secs you can see the paper came off by itself, all traces perfectly intact
good luck
Oh! What kind of paper would that be? I'm in Germany, and the PnP is kind of expensive. Always on the look out for cheaper ways of doing the same thing.
Do you have a brand or make name for the stuff you get good results with? A link to some site, perhaps?
Oh, wow. I was searching and searching and nothing came up, but I copied and pasted your text: it says inktjet (nice and Dutch)! Got the links now. Thanks for the tip!
1) The shinier the better. Shine = smaller emulsion particles = higher resolution.
2) AVOID double-sided paper. Some companies produce photo paper with the same emulsion coating on both sides just so you don't need to keep track of which side to print on. That's fine if the heat is being applied to one side, but not so good if the toner is pressed up against a heat-retaining copper board and heat is being applied from the other side. The emulsion on the iron side will melt onto the iron, :icon_eek: :P make sure one side is dull, dull, dull and the other side is shiny, shiny, shiny.
Some places will let you open up the box first to see if its the kind of paper you want, but many won't. Given that many of us here do not need that many sheets, sometimes the smart thing to do is to go to the copy store, ask them if they have any glossy photo paper and see the paper first. Photocopy places are a bit like photo-developing stores; they only charge you for the copies that work out (If THEY make the copies). Sometimes it can be a money-saver to bring a copy of what you want printed onphoto paper and get them to do it with the contrast set just right (i.e., most toner laid down without gray ghosting between the traces).
I just did my first pcb this weekend with all SMD parts, instead of using photo paper or PnP, I cut out a little square of paper from a magazine and used that. Worked great, after ironing and rinsing with cold water, I soaked it in warm soapy water and the magazine paper came right off.
Quote from: remmelt on April 02, 2007, 05:15:20 PM
it says inktjet (nice and Dutch)! Got the links now. Thanks for the tip!
ooops! corrected now. thanks
Quote from: zjokka on April 01, 2007, 06:50:19 PM
Quote from: markm on April 01, 2007, 08:31:28 AM
Congratulations!
Quote from: remmelt on April 01, 2007, 07:50:56 AM
Handy tip: sheet of paper over the board+PnP, so the PnP won't slide.
The paper that comes with Iron-On T-shirt transfers would be ideal for this!
I never use PNP, always use inktjet picture paper:
-for me it's about 20 times cheaper (central Europe)
-you can keep your iron maxxed out and never will overheat the transfer
-the paper peels off by itself afterwards
Use inktjet picture paper with a "papery" back, not synthetic otherwise your iron will stick to the metal.
Essential extra step is punching the tonerless white areas with a needle or exacto knife, especially in places where the traces are close together. This punching trick will help the air to escape from underneath the toner fast and make for strong and fast adherence to the copper.
http://modman.blogdrive.com/archive/30.html
or if you want to go straight to the video, click here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snileUK7PQg
in the last 10secs you can see the paper came off by itself, all traces perfectly intact
good luck
Just to clarify, is that using toner or ink?
It's using toner, but the paper that the toner image is printed on, and whihc is ironned, is the paper that is specifically intneded for inkjet printing.
So that is where the confusion is, the paper is "inkjet paper", but you print on it with toner.
I've made the comparison and picture paper labeled 'for inkjet printers' peels off much better. There is a difference between these two types of paper: picture paper 'for laser printer' has to withstand the heat inherent in the laser toner process. Toner needs heating before it can be used.
If you put both thorough a laser printer or xerox machine (it's the same process), you'll notice the inkjet paper reacts a bit to the heat, but nothing serious.
The ease with which the material you use releases from the copper board, you will find, is an important criteria.
hope this helps..