Greetings all!
I know on this forum we tend to talk more about perfboard, stripboard, and PCB layouts, but I finally decided I need to learn to use my breadboard. My first attempt looked like a mess, plus it didn't work, so it got me thinking about breadboard layouts for the creatively challenged builders like me. I like to experiment with mods, but it's a little cumbersome once the components have already been soldered in place.
Do any of you guys make copies of your BB layouts, and if so, would you be willing to share any?
Thanks in advance!
Rock on!
Rick J
I second this! Oh and when I start using my breadboard, which I have been wanting to, I will be sure to post em, probably in a gallery that will come eventually.
My Breadboarding so far hasn't been the neatest.
What it *does* do is give me a chance to make (many) rough sketches of what connects to where - which is pretty my a stripboard layout as far as I can see.
I'd start with something like a Fuzz Face, or single tranny booster.
Next challenge for me will be some sort of optical trem, most probably using someone else's schematic - as that part still confuses me...
Have you checked out the gaussmarkov IC-based Overdrive breadboard project, on this very forum? ;D
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?board=33.0
What do you mean "layout"? There's no "layout" involved, you just wire sh*t up on the fly with a breadboard. That's the whole point.
There should be 2 (3 in some cases) busses for running power and ground. Buzz it out with your meter to figure out how they are oriented and you're good to go.
I just started on my breadboard as well. In my early tries I started with the transistors in place and worked my way out, checking and double checking as I went. I also tried to stretch it out as much as possible so I could see it easier as well as swap things in and out quickly. that seemed to work OK. I recently created a excel file that has a grid system just like the board so I can lay it out on paper first. I like using that just to get a rough idea. I can email the template for it if you're interested.
Let me get this straight...
You guys are actually drawing up layouts for how arrange components on a breadboard for experimenting?
Wow... It must take you a long time.
When I first started serious breadboarding, I also took a lot of time and made loads of mistakes. (I still make loads of mistakes). What is readily apparent to the seasoned veteran is confusing and error prone as heck to the neophyte.
Getting your head around the concept of translating a schematic (abstract) to the breadboard (concrete) takes time. After a while you start to develop Design Patterns, a concept common in the software world. For example, after wiring a VRef voltage divider 200 times, it became second nature to me. Similarly, you start to memorize the pinouts for transistors and opamps and it becomes easy to quickly breadboard an opamp: power here, ground there, in, out etc.
I don't think you'll find much in the way of "layouts" per se for the breadboard, because they are designed for prototyping and swapping things around for testing and listening. However, there are lot's of problems that you'll solve and learn from as you go along.
Some general thoughts:
1. It's always good to have a nice long Supply + and Supply Ground line. Most breadboards make this easy, just connect + to one of the long busses and - to another long buss. Easy access to supply +/- makes everything easier.
2. Try thinking in a two dimensional grid. Lay things out component first, then try and get a short length wire between components. Breadboards make it easy to string things out over acres with lots of long wires, but that can lead to noise and oscillation.
3. As you find yourself doing the same thing over and over, take a moment to either draw it on paper or computer and add it to your bag of Design Patterns. I've found that drawing something out really reinforces it for me and makes it stick in my head.
4. Breadboard jumper cables wear out. They get all munged and crooked and the ends will munge the breadboard holes. If you do a lot of breadboarding, replace jumpers often. Also the breadboard itself will wear out. I think R.G. said something along the lines of breadboards are like underwear, they need to be changed often.
5. I like to keep a box of breadboard only components. The leads are cut short to make breadboarding easier.
6. Nothing beats a bench power supply. You can buy one (wait, this is a DIY site, so build one instead.)
Hope that is of some use.
My 2 cents anyway.
Quote from: DougH on March 12, 2008, 09:14:16 AMYou guys are actually drawing up layouts for how arrange components on a breadboard for experimenting?
Yes, it's called a schematic. ;D :D
Quote from: DougH on March 12, 2008, 09:14:16 AM
Let me get this straight...
You guys are actually drawing up layouts for how arrange components on a breadboard for experimenting?
Wow... It must take you a long time.
It also takes time to trouble shoot your breadboard when you've screwed something up. I like to take a schematic to work with me and do a quick breadboard layout on the train in. Helps me become familiar with the circuit and saves me a little time at the bench. I'm sure once I become more competent I won't do it any longer, but for now I think it's a good exercise.
I guess I don't understand this "schematic translation" problem with a bread board. Because I just lay it out exactly like the schematic. IC pin outs may screw that up a little but with discrete transistors you can put the components on the bread board just like the schematic. That's the beauty of it to me. You have a lot more room than on a circuit board, so you can be as inefficient as you want. I don't trim leads, etc, nothing. I just use a paper copy of the schematic and plug stuff into the board, just like it looks on the schematic. Why throw another translation step in there when you don't need it?
Be aware that breadboards are best thought of as a house of cards. You can get small structures balanced and working fairly easily, but big concoctions need constant care and fiddling to keep them going. As well as a lot of breath-holding. :icon_biggrin:
Yeah, fuzz circuits are one thing but don't try building a discrete computer on a breadboard. You will just get frustrated... :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen:
Virtual Breadboards
This one is on-line from Music From Outer space.
Good for showing simple ideas
http://www.musicfromouterspace.com/ElectronicTools/virtualbreadboard/index.html
This one you download. Not sure about it but its free.
http://www.virtualbreadboard.com/
Hey Dano, how's your MFOS sub commander coming along?
Thanks for all the responses!
I didn't mean to stir up a controversy over this, I'm just trying to elicit some ideas and basic rules of thumb to use when prototyping a circuit.
Rick
No controversy here. I'm just trying to understand the problems.
The virtual idea looks like a good one if you need help getting started. It looks fast and that's what you want.
Yeah, don't worry about it. What controversy? ;D
I just saw some great info so I'm glad you thought about bringing it up! That virtual BB above is a fantastic tool!
Quote from: Baktown on March 12, 2008, 01:29:10 PM
I didn't mean to stir up a controversy over this, I'm just trying to elicit some ideas and basic rules of thumb to use when prototyping a circuit.
I just successfully breadboarded my first circuit the other night. It was Dragonfly's VM Fuzz, which is relatively simple. I did have to move things around a few times to get it to work properly, but I feel pretty good about how it turned out (in fact, it sounded better on the breadboard than it did when I transfered it to perf!).
I think the best way to get started is to first understand how the breadboard terminals are connected, and then to just hammer away at simple circuit until it works. I think the LPB would be pretty easy.
Just from doing that one circuit, I know have a better understanding of how schematics relate to final layouts. I also had some really great "ah-ha!" moments that got the wheels turning.
I say just start hacking away.
QuoteI say just start hacking away.
Exactly. Thank you.
Quote from: Baktown on March 11, 2008, 10:53:08 PM
Greetings all!
I know on this forum we tend to talk more about perfboard, stripboard, and PCB layouts, but I finally decided I need to learn to use my breadboard. My first attempt looked like a mess, plus it didn't work, so it got me thinking about breadboard layouts for the creatively challenged builders like me. I like to experiment with mods, but it's a little cumbersome once the components have already been soldered in place.
Do any of you guys make copies of your BB layouts, and if so, would you be willing to share any?
Thanks in advance!
Rock on!
Rick J
A couple of things:
1. It's called a 'Breadboard' for a reason. It's for experimentation, not 'use'.
2. If you start with a neat layout, it'll be a mess by the time you are 'finished'.
3. The 'tighter' you make it to start, the more difficulty you will have with it when trying mods.
4. Complicated designs are very tough. I use it primarily to test bits and pieces alone. Like an LFO alone, a filter, an amplifier stage, tone control, etc.
For simple guidelines:
1. The rows that are in pairs are for power supply rails.
2. Bypass, bypass, bypass.
3. Keep some space between stages, most of the tweaking is done between them.
4. Bypass, bypass, bypass.
5. try to keep the signal flowing in one direction.
Some more advanced things:
1. Build a 'header' out of aluminum or something on which you can install jacks, switches, battery, power jack, etc. with wires attached that can be run onto/off-of the bread board. These things hanging loose cause more problems than anything else because of the lack of mechanical support.
2. Buy a spool of solid core wire of the right gauge and cut it as you use it. Save pieces from previous projects. Eventually you'll end up using the long pieces for everything but power supplies.
Otherwise, start with something simple, get it working, experiment with changing it. You will very soon understand how things can get messy in a hurry.
just my $0.02.
--john
I don't do layouts when breadboarding, and if I did you definitely wouldn't want to see them, mine are always a mess.
(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=20857&g2_serialNumber=1)
I normally start by putting the first transistor or opamp somewhere near the centre of the board. Then I just work outwards from there.
Just start with something simple and take your time and you should be able to figure it out.
For those who are just starting with breadboards, I have found it much easier to work from schematics than layouts. Just follow the schem and plug in components as required as Doug suggests. My Kay Fuzztone is still on my breadboard and I consider it a luxury to be able to swap parts on the fly.
Chris
Quote from: Pushtone on March 12, 2008, 01:20:14 PM
Hey Dano, how's your MFOS sub commander coming along?
It sits, 70% completed, on a corner of the bench. Like the fat kid waiting to be picked for soccer.
Quote from: culturejam on March 12, 2008, 10:30:18 AM
Quote from: DougH on March 12, 2008, 09:14:16 AMYou guys are actually drawing up layouts for how arrange components on a breadboard for experimenting?
Yes, it's called a schematic. ;D :D
or if you live in England - a circuit!!!
I've found out that having more than one breadboard is also essential. Even if you're only working on one project. It helps when you want to breadboard multiple variations of different stages, tone controls, etc.
I've just started clipping my leads short too. It helps keep things neater if you don't have a million resistors swaying in the breeze an inch above the board. And because I started dong this I also started using hemostats to install/remove flush parts in tight spaces. No more stubby fingers trying to pry out a component and knocking all the surrounding components out.
When I first started this hobby last year, I bought a decent breadboard from Radio Shack, along with a nice set of color coded jumpers, but I would get frustrated trying to prototype even the most simple circuits, so I put it away and went straight to soldering stripboards. As you can imagine, I now have quite a collection of non working stripboards....
I've now decided that learning to use my breadboard is essential, so I'm asking these questions of more experienced and knowledgable builders.
Rock on!
Rick
The place to really start is to learn how to read a schematic, that's the first step. Once you do that, it's easy to translate it to a breadboard. After that it's not too hard to translate it to a perfboard or PCB. Then you'll find that other people's layouts have less value, because it's easy enough to do it yourself. The schematic is the thing- really.
Quote from: Baktown on March 12, 2008, 03:40:36 PM
When I first started this hobby last year, I bought a decent breadboard from Radio Shack, along with a nice set of color coded jumpers, but I would get frustrated trying to prototype even the most simple circuits, so I put it away and went straight to soldering stripboards. As you can imagine, I now have quite a collection of non working stripboards....
I'm in the exact same boat as you. Originally bought a breadboard with the intent of testing out everything before I soldered anything but ended up just soldering together stripboards. A couple working pedals and a few duds latter and I'm finally trying to prototype a fuzz on the board, hoping that this way I might be able to tweak things to get the sound I want instead of building something and finding out it isn't the sound I was after.
Quote from: DougH on March 12, 2008, 03:54:33 PM
The place to really start is to learn how to read a schematic, that's the first step. Once you do that, it's easy to translate it to a breadboard. After that it's not too hard to translate it to a perfboard or PCB. Then you'll find that other people's layouts have less value, because it's easy enough to do it yourself. The schematic is the thing- really.
I think something that really helps when learning how to read a schematic is to get a layout and trace it using the schematic. Follow the connections on the layout with those on the schematic and note how things are connected. The breadboard is a tool for getting things to a working point for testing and fiddling and once you have that then you can do a layout for the final circuit board. Like Doug said, if there is a 'layout' for the breadboard, it's the schematic.
It's good to know I'm not the only person here who has frustrations (not that I wish frustration on anybody!) with this hobby.
There are a lot of really smart people here who give freely of their knowledge, which is greatly appreciated, but I get a little envious sometimes of how easy things seem to be to them. Then I stop and realize that they've worked long and hard to acquire that knowledge, and that I need to be patient and keep slogging forward.
I wish I had something to give back to the DIY community here, but I doubt if anyone has much interest in my area of expertise, which is drilling and producing oil wells (please don't blame me for the high price of gasoline or petrol). I just produce the stuff, I don't set the prices... :icon_evil:
Rock on!
Rick J
Quote from: Baktown on March 12, 2008, 10:32:18 PM
I wish I had something to give back to the DIY community here, but I doubt if anyone has much interest in my area of expertise, which is drilling and producing oil wells (please don't blame me for the high price of gasoline or petrol). I just produce the stuff, I don't set the prices... :icon_evil:
I'm hoping in time I will eventually have something to give back, but for now I'd say we're both just the "newbies" learning as much as we can from the more experienced in the field.
I'd like to eventually get into the digital FX since my programming background could be of some use there, but for now tinkering with analog on a breaboard will do ;)
One thing I may suggest is throwing together your breadbaord on some sort of "prototype" setup.
I based mine off Paul M's...
(http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/4506/protoboardxo0.jpg)
I've put together a voltage divider that I mean to stick onto this somewhere along with a DC jack and hopefully the whole setup will help me when trying to divise interesting sounds.
Quote from: Baktown on March 12, 2008, 10:32:18 PM
It's good to know I'm not the only person here who has frustrations (not that I wish frustration on anybody!) with this hobby.
There are a lot of really smart people here who give freely of their knowledge, which is greatly appreciated, but I get a little envious sometimes of how easy things seem to be to them. Then I stop and realize that they've worked long and hard to acquire that knowledge, and that I need to be patient and keep slogging forward.
I wish I had something to give back to the DIY community here, but I doubt if anyone has much interest in my area of expertise, which is drilling and producing oil wells (please don't blame me for the high price of gasoline or petrol). I just produce the stuff, I don't set the prices... :icon_evil:
Rock on!
Rick J
You give back something everytime one of us ques up outside the local pump!
I live in Santa Maria, which is also an oil town and I've done work over in Bakerfield with some of the oil companies. What's really funny are the wells right in the middle of town in parking lots and stuff! Do you work over the Kern River area?
The tough part about helping others to learn is that sometimes people forget what it was like to be at that stage and how what seems so simple to them isn't to someone else. I teach geometry at a local JC and although math isn't my normal vocation (structural engineering is) I find it faily easy and it's really a challange to slow down and help others to grasp what I think are simple concepts. I think what was said about getting down how to read a schematic is key. With the layouts that are available online for effect circuits, it's easy to skip over that part or learn only part of it, but if you really want to understand what's going on spend sometime learning what the schematic is telling you. Also, like I said earlier, try tracing some layouts that others have done with the schematic. It helped me anyway.
I have always done much better with soldering to strip board, because when I use a breadboard stuff falls out, or I knock it over.
(I drop & knock over the stripboard protos too, but being soldered, they are OK!)
But many, many people are happy with breadboards, so good luck to them.
If you are stripboarding, please make one of those pot & socket holding rails like ConanB. Otherwise the wires will fall out while you are tweaking & you will be very unhappy.
Breadboards are my best friend. Like many have stated before me, it serves both as a proof of concept and convenient tool for experimentation. Once you get the hang of it, you just start putting together circuits in no time... huge time saver for me and I can recycle the parts.
Here's my board (http://www.madbeanpedals.com/builds/ptype/)
I use it constantly...much more than actually soldering :) Having three or four linked together and plenty of jumper wire lets you keep your board pretty clean. I also keep a little plastic organizer just for breadboard components.
It's just takes time and practice...there's no shortcut.
That is really cool!
This is what I need to do, make something functional AND fun!
Rick
One caveat about breadboards... don't try to prototype radio frequency stuff like Theremins with them. The main thing that gets you is the long leads on resistors and capacitors (extra inductance), but there's also capacitance of the breadboard itself.
But not-too-critical audio frequency stuff is just fine, though sometimes the breadboard takes away a little of the high frequencies.
Those prototype pot panels - if you put whiteboard adhesive film on the front, you can keep track of the knobs!
Quote from: bean on March 14, 2008, 07:52:42 PM
Here's my board (http://www.madbeanpedals.com/builds/ptype/)
I use it constantly...much more than actually soldering :) Having three or four linked together and plenty of jumper wire lets you keep your board pretty clean. I also keep a little plastic organizer just for breadboard components.
It's just takes time and practice...there's no shortcut.
MB that is freaking great!