ok, I know we've been over this, but I have to ask again, how do you guys drill after etching? I can't seem to get it done without lifting traces . . .
Hi
Lifting traces sounds a bit like the quality of the board might be bad. But if the board quality is ok -
I used to use a drill stand to hold my drill ($10 second hand). But I'm lucky enough to have a proper drill press ($80) these days.
I have a 100W light bulb located about 1m away from the drillpress, so that I can see without straining my eyes. I use 2 size drills - 1 mm (resistors, caps, etc) and 1.2 mm (about 3/64ths, for power diodes etc.). A good etch job leaves a tiny etched hole that the drill tip will find if you are close.
I set the drill press up so that the tip is only about 3mm above the board. As I lower the tip, I make minor adjustments to the position of the board, so that the holes are right on target. About 1 in 50 holes still go a bit "wrong". I support the PCB with a piece of fibreboard (MDF). With a fairly good setup like this, it takes about 5 minutes to drill a moderately complicated board, like a tubescreamer, and 30 seconds to do a fuzzface.
cheers
I have access to a drill press, but I use that only for drilling enclosures. For PCBs, I go with a much simpler route (that requires very steady hands). I have a 1/32" drill bit (a little smaller than 1mm) and a dremel. You can't really find 1/32" or 1mm in stores, you usually have to mail order them. McMaster-carr is always great for stuff like this.
I just power up the dremel, hold the board in one hand, drill with the other :) I find it easy, and I can drill about 60 holes a minute without any mess-ups, but then again I'm young and I have solid dexterity. The drill press method is definitely easier (I tried it once) but it's a little more tedious and time-consuming. (But then again, we're talking 5 minutes versus 1 minute).
Be careful with the small drill bits, they break easily!
And I second the notion that lifting traces is either due to a bad board or a bad drill bit.
And, I never knew this, but apparently PCB dust is toxic? Does anyone know anything about that?
Burak
If you want to do PCB drilling right, not always be scrabbling around trying to compensate for not having the right stuff and always ruining a certain percentage of your boards,
(a) get a jeweler's precision drill press (about $140.00), NOT a bench or floor standing drill press or a Dremel drill press. Both the last will be OK for hacking around, but cannot be relied on for the necessary precision
(b) get solid carbide 1/8" shank PCB drills at a local tool supplier or by mail order. They're about $2.00 each. The precision drill press will not wobble and break them like a Dremel or other hatchup rig will. It's essentially impossible to drill with PCB size carbide by hand without breaking them about every third hole.
(c ) run them at about 8K RPM or more to get good, clean cuts.
I'm building another PCB microscope drill. This one has a USB camera/microscope held in a frame over a bottom-mounted 1/8" collect air drill which moves up from the bottom. The camera puts a picture on a screen, and crosshairs mark where the point of the bit comes up. In use, you align it, put the PCB on the stage facing the camera, then move a pad to be centered in the crosshairs. Press the pedal to move the drill bit up, release the pedal, move to the next pad.
Yo
If you're holding the pbc in one hand and drilling with the other a simple slip up could result in drilling through your palm or fingers. Just clamp the thing down on some scrap wood or something. I've been using the dremel press lately but I might have to invest in something better. Since drilling pcb's is on the more boring side of the pedal building process it pays to make it quick and easy and safe.
--Brad
Quote from: jrem on March 30, 2008, 09:09:08 PM
ok, I know we've been over this, but I have to ask again, how do you guys drill after etching? I can't seem to get it done without lifting traces . . .
One thing that can help with the trace lifiting thing is to make sure you use sharp drills (bits). If the drill (bit) is dull it heats up the copper pad too much trying to force it's way through and that can lead to lifting because the bonding of the copper to the fiberglass gets weak.
When using carbide PCB drills you can inadvertantly achieve lifting if your drill speed is too low, the carbide bits can "catch" as they penetrate and peel up the pad so if you use those keep the drill motor speed up high.
I use both the carbide and the standard HSS drill types and I like the carbide best ...but... find that using the HSS #65 or #68 drill from the local hobby supply store (usually about $/ea) can be quite effective if one makes sure the etched pads have a fairly good pad-hole etched into them. In other words try to get the etched hole close (but not the same size) to the size it will be after drilling, that seems to reduce the opportunity for a bit to "catch" or "over heat" the pad's copper.
+1
High speed, sharp bits, carbide bits even better, Drill press of some kind is a must.
The material needs a high speed, too low and the bits just chew through the board and make for a rough hole.
Go to drill bit city and buy a 10 pack of resharpened carbide bits for $8. You won't look back.
John
Quote from: bkanber on March 30, 2008, 10:29:22 PM
I just power up the dremel, hold the board in one hand, drill with the other :) I find it easy, and I can drill about 60 holes a minute without any mess-ups, but then again I'm young and I have solid dexterity.
You can hand-drill 1 hole per second? You must be part robot or something.
Wide shank carbide bits....YES!!
A drill press with a laser sighting feature....YES (cheaper than you'd think)
A spring-loaded centre punch.....YES!!
Very often the blanks left in the centre of the solder pads in PCB layouts can be your best friend. With the etched opening in the centre of the pad a lower level than the copper around it, this can often stop the bit from wandering. If the pattern itself does not provide them, then make an effort to insert them either digitally, or by some post-transfer scratching. Just keep your finger-juice off the copper.
i just use good quality drill bits (1mm/1.2mm) and an cordless hand drill. its not the best method but its one of the cheapest and works fine if you have patience.
a tip: always have spare bits readily available.
Quote from: R.G. on March 30, 2008, 11:38:43 PM
It's essentially impossible to drill with PCB size carbide by hand without breaking them about every third hole.
I disagree =) I use a dremel @ 30,000 rpm and 1/32" carbide bits. I broke two early on, but now I've drilled probably 200 or 300 holes without breaking a bit.
Granted, a drill press is always better... however, I'm happy with my technique. I'm super quick with it and my holes are always nice and clean.
Quote from: culturejam on March 31, 2008, 04:31:12 PM
You can hand-drill 1 hole per second? You must be part robot or something.
Haha.. that's why my girlfriend said! =P
Yeah, I've gotten my drilling technique down pat, and can do about 1 hole a second. I'll time my next board for you, and let you know. But sitting here looking at my watch, 1 second each feels about right. Maybe it's more like 1.2 seconds: 5 holes/6 seconds. Something like that ...
Remember Gene Wilder in Blazing Saddles? That's me..
Burak
maybe I should reword the question . . .
first, I'm using a dremel and a 0.038" high-speed bit (or so), I press-n-peel the board, then center punch, then drill (I put the board in a small vice and hand drill them), then touch up with a sharpie, then etch.
The last couple boards I tried to eliminate the center punch, etch, then drill, and they don't turn out so well. When I try to drill I tear the traces up off the board, or when I go and solder, funky things happen.
Now I'm back to punching, drilling, then etching, but I don't think the boards look as clean as they would if I etch then drill.
So what's the secret? Smaller carbide drills?
How long are you etching for?
In industrial situations, one of the main reasons for trace lifting is inadequate etching time.
What kind of acid do you use to etch?
Quote from: bkanber on March 31, 2008, 08:03:14 PM
I disagree =) I use a dremel @ 30,000 rpm and 1/32" carbide bits. I broke two early on, but now I've drilled probably 200 or 300 holes without breaking a bit.
Granted, a drill press is always better... however, I'm happy with my technique. I'm super quick with it and my holes are always nice and clean.
Kewl. I think we should nominate you for Driller of the Year.
However, not everyone is blessed with such dexterity and vision. I think I'd be happy if I had your technique, too. There's lots of stuff other than drilling I could use the sharp vision and dexterity for.
Plus, 200-300 holes per bit is good, but not by bit life standards. A good carbide bit will go several thousand holes before needing replaced due to dullness. The point is not to break carbide bits period, or so infrequently you don't have a bundle of bits sitting there just in case.
Of course, my view is jaundiced. I'm thinking back to when I was the only place on the internet to get clone boards and I'd sit down and drill maybe 2000 holes before taking a break. One board at a time is easier to stay fresh.
I think my advice stands for beginners, perhaps modified by "... of course, you may be the kind of person who is just so good that you'll never break a bit. In that case, ignore this, and only buy one carbide bit and use it free hand in your Dremel."
Quote from: jrem on April 01, 2008, 08:25:29 PM
So what's the secret? Smaller carbide drills?
Yes, as stated above at least twice. :icon_biggrin:
Quote from: jrem on April 01, 2008, 08:25:29 PM
So what's the secret? Smaller carbide drills?
NO! This is THE ULTIMATE MACHINE !
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm104/frank-p/tools/drill.jpg?t=1207105571)
This is my old setup for drilling PCBs. ::):
Old broaching press.
Flexible shaft and Dremel.
1mm HSS drill bit that I keep on using...
Now this is Hi-Tech !
Maybe I could install a lazer and web camera on this one. :D
I bought a press-drill instead of that Teisco guitar.
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=66052.msg524193#msg524193
Jeweler press-drill, DAMN! I should have know this before buying my general purpose drill !
Oh! it will serve for enclosures!
I don't think my observation should be ignored. :icon_confused:
Quoting my Nashville friends, I smell what you're steppin' in. It's a real downer isn't it? Howzat Simon song go? "still people hear what they want to hear and disregard the rest, la-la-la-la la..."
Remember - you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him think.
Quote from: soulsonic on April 02, 2008, 01:32:47 AM
I don't think my observation should be ignored. :icon_confused:
Yes and also, how long you rub with acetone to clean the transfered toner...
So, with what solution are you etching with Soulsonic, so it don't fragilise the bond to the copper trace ? And for how long?
(I am not teasing)
Quote from: R.G. on April 02, 2008, 09:29:10 AM
Quoting my Nashville friends, I smell what you're steppin' in. It's a real downer isn't it? Howzat Simon song go? "still people hear what they want to hear and disregard the rest, la-la-la-la la..."
Remember - you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him think.
C'mon R.G. don't be tempted to sing the same song too often ;). Conditionnement is the ways we tame the horses. Habits is the way we make humans stupid and lifeless. Don't be alieanated too much by your own toughts. Identifying your feelings on other constatations is the action of the ego toward stigma. And social concensus in that way is not always a good thing... I know it's hard not to let our knowledge, experience and intelligence run over the fence of the technical domain. I try to keep my horses in the paddock and work with them, or let them go wild and happy. However, I understand your frustration when you see people not be attentive on good advice, and then, after, propagate nonsense on the net. What I see is that not a lot of folks have your experience, so they are blinkered by what they do not know (even if they are free or in the paddock). I am often one of those.
All my respect for pointing me in the right direction again ! Who knows, if I drink at your source perhaps, one day I will be able to think by myself. PCBs is archetypal of what you say...
I've used Ferric Chloride and Sodium Persulfate and never had problems with trace lifting from either. I'd say a 3"x4" piece of board generally takes at least 1 hour to 1½ hours depending on ambient temperature.
I don't usually use acetone on the boards if I don't have to. I usually just use denatured alcohol. If I absolutely have to use acetone to remove something stubborn, I try to get it done as quickly as possible and use the absolute minimal amount on a cloth, taking care not to saturate the board with the stuff... since it does bad things to the board material.
I just don't understand why people are getting all worked up over the bits. Sure a good bit is going to make a nice clean hole, but I've used all kinds of junky bits with various hand drills and never had problems with traces lifting; so, to me, it seems that bits have less to do with lifting than other variables. You can actually see along the edges of the traces if they are going to be prone to lifting - I've seen ones where they look really sharp and a little raised on the edges - that's not good. The ones I do look "blended in" to the board on the trace edges - and that must be good because they almost never lift. I'm not going to say that I do the best boards, or that I even do great boards - I think my home-etched boards are pretty amateurish, and that's why I like to stick to hand-wiring on perf... BUT, I've never had trouble with trace lifting, and that's what we're talking about here, so I'm throwing my 2 cents in and saying that this "5 minutes with Muriatic acid" foolishness I keep seeing around here is absolutely begging for bad etches.
Martin
I understand what you are saying but I don't think the etchant has much to do with the traces lifting.
The etchant can't get under the board unless it's water soluble and I don't think any are.
Water soluble meaning porous enough for liquids to penetrate. I use Hcl/H202 by the way.
The only down side is that sharpie isn't enough of a fix for toner flakes and touch ups. I use enamel model paint and a tooth pick nowdays.
Usually I can etch a single board in 5 minutes or less with a fresh batch of etchant. I have been reusing it now and it takes 20 minutes or so depending on the copper thickness I'm using.
My experience with dull HSS bits is that they leave a burr around the drilled hole and a rough edge on the not copper side as well as the copper side. With the 1/8" shank carbide bits I use from "drill bit city" I get no burr around the copper, the bit does not skate around or drift at all and the holes are clean and show no sign of white rough edges in the board material. I drill very fast paced, faster than I should and still retain nice holes. I get several hundered or more holes from each bit, not that I count, but it's been a a good month and a half on the same bit and I etch a lot of boards with an el cheapo Delta $99 10" drill press.
I would never think that a bit would make much difference but when I started using carbide bits with the thick shank it REALLY made the difference.
John
yeah, I think the trace lifting is due to the hss bits pushing the copper out of the way.
I picked up a Dremel drill press today (but kept the receipt!), and am going to give it a whirl. If I have to buy a jewelers drill press then so be it, although I don't know what one is.
Thanks for all the advice, although I don't listen to art garfunkel any more. Jeesh, talk about the second best job in rock and roll (behind john oats) . . .
As said before, I have trace lifting when using acetone for too long, so Soulsonic, you confirm my results. As for muriatic/peroxyde solution it's the one that I've ever used so I can't compare for now with ferric chloride per ex. I bought some however, so I might try it, and see if I note a difference. As for drill bits, carbide is better, but not not necessary for paper/thermosed clad. If you are putting out quantities of board, and longevity before resharpening, is a cost issue, you can go for diamond bits. :) That is what they do in the wood industry ! But I guess it's a solution if you are a robot that work very fast !!! For my HSS bits, it's just that I've saw too many carbide tools (in machining at work) and I like to support my local supply store where I can take a walk to. So for me, trace lifting is acetone + bits that I've not sharpened for too long (for now). Note that with HSS you can be sharper than with carbide (having less burrs/tears), but you get dull much faster.
Quote from: frank_p on April 02, 2008, 08:18:03 PM
Note that with HSS you can be sharper than with carbide (having less burrs/tears), but you get dull much faster.
N.B. The theoretical edge radius with HSS is indeed smaller than with carbide. However the glass fiber in the fiber-glass boards is extremely abrasive to steel (the glass is harder, as hardened HSS will not scratch it). They are much less abrasive to the harder carbide particles in solid carbide bits, so the carbide lasts much longer.
Expect a working life of 50-100 holes of PCB size in 0.062" glass-epoxy before getting a new HSS bit if you want good holes.
I`ve got to say, I can`t see where the length of time the PCB is immersed in the etchant has any bearing on the quality of the traces.
As a point of interest, particularly for those on a budget, this is what I`ve been using to bore holes, with great success.
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o44/RANCHERO23/HANDDRILL.jpg)
For the occasional PCB it`s ideal.
Yes, sure, carbide for fiberglass. But I don't use fiberglass clad board when drilling holes. Maybe I should try soon.
I wan't to stay away from PBC for now, I need a more easy way to probe. I have an impression of learning nothing when doing PCBs.
Do anybody have a hint on this:
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=66513.msg528597#msg528597
Sorry for plugging myself. :-\
But I find it hard to study with a PCB.
A Dremel drill press? That's a good idea! Much cheaper than a regular drill press. Maybe I should try that.
How did it turn out?
I use this (awful cell phone picture):
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i5/Morocotuco/berbiqui-1.jpg)
Around here it´s called a "berbiquí". Don´t ask for an english translation... I think it´s the same thing as what GREEN FUZZ shows. It´s basically a mini hand drill. You position the bit in the hole, then push down the little collar below the top with two fingers while holding the top with another finger. The axle has a thread and a spring around it, so when you push down the collar it makes the "head" (I think you english speaking people call it the chuck) spin, so you get a hole! Bought at a jeweller´s supply house. I use it with 0,7 to 1 mm bits, bought there also. Requires steady pulse and good lightning, what I do is put the PCB over a stack of newspapers as a "kitchen table protector", and also won´t break the bits if you bend it a little from vertical. Slow. Very slow. You need patience. Also, I don´t use fiberglass, might be harder than what I use (pertinax). I never, repeat, never broke a bit, since I started to make/drill PCB´s. Maybe because rotation speed is looow (5 RPS(econd) perhaps? I´m not a fast guy:P)
Oh, and I never had a lifted trace...
Morocotopo
EDIT: it requires good LIGHTING, not good LIGHTNING... ::)
Quote from: merc on April 02, 2008, 09:31:40 PM
A Dremel drill press? That's a good idea! Much cheaper than a regular drill press. Maybe I should try that.
How did it turn out?
dunno yet. Need to get some carbide drills. First look at it, though, and I can see what some others are stating about it, it might be a bit loose, i.e., I can see the drill being a bit wobble-y. I would think though if one takes time to drill it might work out, though. Like I said, I kept the receipt, so if it doesn't work out I'll get my $40 back from Lowe's.
Etching could have a part to play if the traces get under-etched. This is when the etchant eats underneath the edges of the traces and is not usually visible to the naked eye. It looks kinda like a fulcrum when viewed in a cross-section, like a triangle. This could be caused by being in the etch too long, not cleaning it soon enough after being etched or by not cleaning the board properly or quick enough.
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e130/diermit/underetched.jpg)
Also, I have never had problems cleaning boards with acetone. I rinse them good with running water after etching then clean the gunk off with the acetone.
Quote from: merc on April 02, 2008, 09:31:40 PM
A Dremel drill press? That's a good idea! Much cheaper than a regular drill press. Maybe I should try that.
How did it turn out?
I've been using one for a couple of months, and it works just fine for me. Note that if you get the tiny bits that Smallbear sells, you'll need to get the super-small collet for the Dremel (your local big-box hardware store should have these in stock). Or get the adjustable chuck instead. Or get bits that have the 1/8" shaft.
ok, got the dremel drill press set up and running, I bought an engraving bit (hss) to use until the carbide drills show up. Pics are at http://www.jrem.com/080406 (http://www.jrem.com/080406)
works good. the board with the solder on it is the one I complained about (etch then drill), the ones without solder are big muff boards I made a while ago that were etched but never drilled.
I have been using a cheap rotary tool from Harbor Freight Tools for a while now.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94076
I have done about 30 boards with it. I put a small piece of particle board under it and work at the kitchen counter. My wife loves the noise. haha! :icon_wink:
I have to be very careful not to slip but I haven't ruined a board yet. It's just a hobby for me so I probably won't upgrade for a while.
The micro bits are cheap also. Here is a link to some bits, though I found smaller, cheaper kits by going to the actual store.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=34640
Would love to have a better rig, but I only build a few pedals a year.