I just picked one up. I've never seen gutshots anywhere, so I thought I'd provide some for the curious:
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/umafloresta/FX/Danelectro/DSCN1742.jpg)
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/umafloresta/FX/Danelectro/DSCN1741.jpg)
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/umafloresta/FX/Danelectro/DSCN1739.jpg)
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/umafloresta/FX/Danelectro/DSCN1740.jpg)
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/umafloresta/FX/Danelectro/DSCN1738.jpg)
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/umafloresta/FX/Danelectro/DSCN1737.jpg)
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/umafloresta/FX/Danelectro/DSCN1736.jpg)
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/umafloresta/FX/Danelectro/DSCN1745.jpg)
8)
I am amazed. Never in my wildest dreams did I expect that thing to have actual springs in there. I always just assumed it was a modeler.
Quote from: cheeb on April 24, 2008, 12:00:47 AM
I am amazed. Never in my wildest dreams did I expect that thing to have actual springs in there. I always just assumed it was a modeler.
Yeah, the springs aren't just for show. It seems to be a hybrid of a short, slapback delay with some feedback and spring reverb. I think the slapback makes up for the fact that the springs are fairly short. The volume control acts as a mix between the delay and the spring reverb - or actually, controls the amount of signal being sent through the springs. It actually sounds pretty believable. Pretty clever, I think.
Some clips from around the web:
http://www.inrerocknroll.com/tunes/Rbilly.mp3
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=77QQCOSF
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGgEwpzeOHE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBJpR_ASl1A
Interesting - any close ups of the circuit board?
A little closer
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/umafloresta/FX/Danelectro/DSCN1730.jpg)
I was told once that this was a digital verb and the springs were there for the kick pad feature... never looked into it any further. Uma's description of the function is way more appealing to me.
I actually forgot about these, I might have to hunt for one come birthday time lol.
Some closer shots of the PCB:
As you can see, this uses a PT2399S delay chip:
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/umafloresta/FX/Danelectro/DSCN1756.jpg)
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/umafloresta/FX/Danelectro/DSCN1757.jpg)
According to the datasheet, the 3.6k resistor at pin six should be setting the fixed delay time, yes?
The feedback on this delay chip is set fairly high - I'd like to be able to control this value. Any thoughts as where a fixed feedback control might likely be found so I can make it into an external control? I've looked at several delay schematics, and it seems that often the feedback control is located somewhere in the circuit that will connect back to pins 14 and 16. Should I be looking for a single resistor that connects the two at some point?
As far as I can tell, Volume controls the strength of signal fed through the springs, Tone is tone of course, and Reverb controls the mix of dry to reverberated signal.
Datasheet info:
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/umafloresta/FX/Danelectro/PTdescription.jpg)
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/umafloresta/FX/Danelectro/PTPinConfiguration.jpg)
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/umafloresta/FX/Danelectro/PTchipbmp.jpg)
There are also four other chips, including two TL0723s. I assume they have to do with driving the signal into the springs, and then a recovery stage after the springs:
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/umafloresta/FX/Danelectro/DSCN1758.jpg)
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/umafloresta/FX/Danelectro/DSCN1759.jpg)
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/umafloresta/FX/Danelectro/DSCN1760.jpg)
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/umafloresta/FX/Danelectro/DSCN1761.jpg)
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/umafloresta/FX/Danelectro/DSCN1762.jpg)
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/umafloresta/FX/Danelectro/DSCN1763.jpg)
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/umafloresta/FX/Danelectro/DSCN1764.jpg)
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/umafloresta/FX/Danelectro/DSCN1766.jpg)
Incredible! I turned one down and bought something else because I thought it would be just another digital pedal in a bloated enclosure. What a revelation.
I'm now driven towards making a reverb/delay using a short springline and a Rebote delay in the same box. Excellent.
Dude, where's my spring? Where's my spring, dude?
Quote from: Mick Bailey on April 25, 2008, 02:44:52 PM
Incredible! I turned one down and bought something else because I thought it would be just another digital pedal in a bloated enclosure. What a revelation.
I'm now driven towards making a reverb/delay using a short springline and a Rebote delay in the same box. Excellent.
Dude, where's my spring? Where's my spring, dude?
Yes, it's pretty cleverly designed, I'd say.
The feedback on this delay chip is set fairly high - I'd like to be able to control this value. Any thoughts as where a fixed feedback control might likely be found so I can make it into an external control? I've looked at several delay schematics, and it seems that often the feedback control is located somewhere in the circuit that will connect back to pins 14 and 16. Should I be looking for a single resistor that connects the two at some point?
You're on the right track. With my Fab Echo, I just poked around inside, shorting things out until I found a suitable place to put a jumper... I wanted more feedback, but you could do the same thing for less feedback by finding the appropriate resistor using the jumper method. Just jumper the likely resistors and note when the feedback goes up to 100%, that's probably the feedback resistor. You can then replace it with a pot.
Another resource for you, it's likely this pedal uses the same sort of delay circuit:
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=64519.0
Look for a schematic of the Fab Echo, because the "Repeats" control is probably in the exact same spot as the fixed feedback resistor in the Spring King. Have fun with the surface mount stuff. :)
Quote from: earthtonesaudio on April 25, 2008, 03:00:01 PM
The feedback on this delay chip is set fairly high - I'd like to be able to control this value. Any thoughts as where a fixed feedback control might likely be found so I can make it into an external control? I've looked at several delay schematics, and it seems that often the feedback control is located somewhere in the circuit that will connect back to pins 14 and 16. Should I be looking for a single resistor that connects the two at some point?
You're on the right track. With my Fab Echo, I just poked around inside, shorting things out until I found a suitable place to put a jumper... I wanted more feedback, but you could do the same thing for less feedback by finding the appropriate resistor using the jumper method. Just jumper the likely resistors and note when the feedback goes up to 100%, that's probably the feedback resistor. You can then replace it with a pot.
Another resource for you, it's likely this pedal uses the same sort of delay circuit:
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=64519.0
Look for a schematic of the Fab Echo, because the "Repeats" control is probably in the exact same spot as the fixed feedback resistor in the Spring King. Have fun with the surface mount stuff. :)
Good idea! Thanks for the tips!
Thanks Uma. Didn't expect digital + a spring.
What I think they have done is use a small spring to get the character of the spring then wrapped a longer delay around it to make it bigger (more or less).
if you're gonna add a feedback control why not add a delay time control too :icon_idea:
Anyone ever put springs in the feedback loop of a short delay?
Quote from: earthtonesaudio on April 25, 2008, 03:00:01 PM
The feedback on this delay chip is set fairly high - I'd like to be able to control this value. Any thoughts as where a fixed feedback control might likely be found so I can make it into an external control? I've looked at several delay schematics, and it seems that often the feedback control is located somewhere in the circuit that will connect back to pins 14 and 16. Should I be looking for a single resistor that connects the two at some point?
You're on the right track. With my Fab Echo, I just poked around inside, shorting things out until I found a suitable place to put a jumper... I wanted more feedback, but you could do the same thing for less feedback by finding the appropriate resistor using the jumper method. Just jumper the likely resistors and note when the feedback goes up to 100%, that's probably the feedback resistor. You can then replace it with a pot.
Another resource for you, it's likely this pedal uses the same sort of delay circuit:
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=64519.0
Look for a schematic of the Fab Echo, because the "Repeats" control is probably in the exact same spot as the fixed feedback resistor in the Spring King. Have fun with the surface mount stuff. :)
Your method worked like a charm. I just poked around in there with a U-shaped wire shorting out various resistors until I found the right one. I completed the mod this morning. Now I can use it as a delay pedal as well as a reverb. At longer delay times and/or higher feedback levels the delay gets gritty and low fi. Very nice! I'll have to work out where to add a control for delay volume level eventually. It's fairly quiet unless it starts to self-oscillate.
I also discovered that with the feedback and delay time at minimum (essentially no delay sound at all), the springs still sound good, and give off that surf drippy faucet sound. So now I can have just the spring reverb, with no delay, or just delay, or a mix of both. Very cool. :icon_cool:
I used a 50k pot for the delay control and a 100k for feedback.
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/umafloresta/FX/Danelectro/SpringKingDelayTimeMod.jpg)
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/umafloresta/FX/Danelectro/SpringKingfeedbackmod.jpg)
If you happen to try this mod, be careful that your wires don't droop down, or they'll mute the springs. I used double-sided tape to secure them to the inside of the enclosure.
Good job with the mods, and thanks for the pics. Sounds like you have a pretty versatile pedal now!
You get a fair bit for your money with this when you add up the cost of the components, springline, enclosure and hardware for a DIY build. I know that's not what it's about - just making the point of what good value this pedal is comparatively. Given the depreciation of Danelectro stuff they'd be a bargain used buy.
I'm impressed with the design.
Has cool features including kick plate, is compact and sounds good...
But I find it's making sense that the short portion after when is handled with springs...by that I mean the complex algorythms and thickness of springs...well you've got to have springs or a fairly whopping amount of re-echoeing by some other means to get that.
Then to get the longer delays [similar but not really like a longer spring], the echo. That means all the complex and short lived algorythms get simply repeated [as opposed to one real long super complex batch of reverb re-echoes or whatever...
I guess the point ITTMake here is long springs can get muddy and ill-defined, short springs can't get the longer dwells...take the sorta still defined complex short spring and simply echo that [instead of adding algorythms to sum to a point too complex..muddy].
One question...is there any delay between the source and the reverb springs?..that might be neat and get a cleaner tone at attack...a slight moment of clean before springtone.
BTW my reverb [accutronics-long 2 spring] was working, longspring tank is kind of doesn't belong unless in a cabinet, and 1 big cabinet for a tanks seems to much, really belongs in an amp...still thinking it could go on the floor because it's not much wider than my current pedalboard...that's wide...hard to hide that long tank and associated wiring/circuit.
Quote from: petemoore on April 27, 2008, 08:10:05 AM
One question...is there any delay between the source and the reverb springs?..that might be neat and get a cleaner tone at attack...a slight moment of clean before springtone.
No, the reverb is immediate - that would be interesting, though. I'm not sure how the signal is mixed, but for sure the springs are getting the dry signal, possibly the wet too.
I bought one of these, and plan on modding it soon.
Couple of questions.
Do you find that have control over the feedback helps with getting rid of the pedals tendancy to resonate when you have all the current knobs cranked ?
Any thoughts on increasing it's output. Mine is considereably quieter then the bypassed signal.
Thanks!
-jftl
Quote from: Jamforthelamb on May 02, 2008, 04:11:21 PM
I bought one of these, and plan on modding it soon.
Couple of questions.
Do you find that have control over the feedback helps with getting rid of the pedals tendancy to resonate when you have all the current knobs cranked ?
Any thoughts on increasing it's output. Mine is considereably quieter then the bypassed signal.
Thanks!
-jftl
No, the mod won't change the tendency to resonate. All things considered, the slap back is relatively subtle, and almost invisible with the volume and reverb controls dimed. It's most apparent with the volume control backed off. I find that I can avoid unwanted resonance by keeping both volume and reverb knobs at 3-4:00.
I still haven't found a way to modify the level of the delay only. Reverb control brings up both delay and reverb levels
Also, not sure what to do about the volume drop. It hasn't bothered me since I'm keeping it on all the time!
Ok, cool.
I'll see if I can come up with some solution for these problems. At the very least I think if we can trace out how these things work some of the uber knowledgeable people on here can help us come up with some solutions.
-jftl
Clip:
http://www.uncledig.com/clipgallery/Uma%20Floresta%20-%20Spring%20King.mp3 (http://www.uncledig.com/clipgallery/Uma%20Floresta%20-%20Spring%20King.mp3)
0 - 1:41 - Delay only, various settings
1:41 - 2:38 - Reverb only, max Level and Reverb, Tone at noon
2:38 - 5:18 both Reverb and delay mixed, various reverb settings, from moderate to maxed out
Songs used - "A Crack in the Ceiling" - Uma Floresta
"Egypt, Texas" - Shadowy Men on a Shadowy Planet
And some generic twangy stuff
If you want to hear this in context of a song, I used the Spring King on both guitar parts in the first song that plays on my Myspace page:
http://www.myspace.com/umaflorestamusic
Neat stuff, Uma.
OT Question: How do you like the Echo Machine on your board? I have a Carbon Copy that I really love, but the number of features on yours coupled w/the price make it almost impossible for me to say no to. I'm also going to check out the US600 Ultra Shifter/Harmonist.
Man thanks for the gut shots. Have you tried running that at higher voltage? My guess is that you would get a even nicer sound out of that tank. Its probably only using an op amp to drive the input of that tank higher voltage may give it a bit more kick. I am going to be building a preamp soon. ESP has a nice design. After hearing you play with that thing , I am only reminded of how much I miss a good old spring reverb.
Quote from: gtrwrks on June 16, 2008, 09:13:19 PM
Neat stuff, Uma.
OT Question: How do you like the Echo Machine on your board? I have a Carbon Copy that I really love, but the number of features on yours coupled w/the price make it almost impossible for me to say no to. I'm also going to check out the US600 Ultra Shifter/Harmonist.
Thanks!
I like the Echo Machine a lot - it's definitely worth the $40. I only ever use it on tape mode, and I don't mess around with the special effects much - but it's just a nice sounding faux tape delay. I've never tried the Line 6 model it copies, but it seems to sound like it, judging from the youtube clips of the Echo Park.
I'd like to try the Dano Reel Echo sometime, though.
Quote from: JasonG on June 16, 2008, 09:45:09 PM
Man thanks for the gut shots. Have you tried running that at higher voltage? My guess is that you would get a even nicer sound out of that tank. Its probably only using an op amp to drive the input of that tank higher voltage may give it a bit more kick. I am going to be building a preamp soon. ESP has a nice design. After hearing you play with that thing , I am only reminded of how much I miss a good old spring reverb.
I haven't tried higher voltages, but I'd be afraid of frying it - I'm not sure what the tolerances are on the components.
Fine sounding clips !
Very demonstrative !
Sounds fine, I don't understand for sure why you'd want to run it on higher voltage..
Quote from: petemoore on June 16, 2008, 11:30:41 PM
Fine sounding clips !
Very demonstrative !
Sounds fine, I don't understand for sure why you'd want to run it on higher voltage..
Thanks!
In regards to voltage, I was just responding to a question - I hadn't considered it previously.
Very cool demo, Uma. :icon_wink: I love the sounds you are getting and how you found a way to separate the delay from the reverb action. What a versatile pedal!
I think this is a very cool pedal if for nothing else, the sheer uniqueness of it. It's definitely one of a kind and will remain that way for a long time, I believe. Danelectro really had their "creativity hat" on when they came up with this. It almost makes up for the sitar swami... Bwahahaha!! :icon_mrgreen: (Just kidding, I love to see someone at least trying to come up with something different, even if it doesn't always succeed.)
Now Pete, I thought by now you would have suggested throwing some tubes in it for the next mod. :icon_mrgreen:
Dang it... Now I want to get one of these...
Quote from: DougH on June 17, 2008, 09:01:06 AM
Very cool demo, Uma. :icon_wink: I love the sounds you are getting and how you found a way to separate the delay from the reverb action. What a versatile pedal!
I think this is a very cool pedal if for nothing else, the sheer uniqueness of it. It's definitely one of a kind and will remain that way for a long time, I believe. Danelectro really had their "creativity hat" on when they came up with this. It almost makes up for the sitar swami... Bwahahaha!! :icon_mrgreen: (Just kidding, I love to see someone at least trying to come up with something different, even if it doesn't always succeed.)
Now Pete, I thought by now you would have suggested throwing some tubes in it for the next mod. :icon_mrgreen:
Dang it... Now I want to get one of these...
I think it makes up for the Sitar Swami, but can anything atone for the Psycho Flange & Shift Daddy?
:icon_mrgreen:
Been a while since I checked out Danelectro but that Reel Echo is just cool as sh*t too... :icon_wink: I love the sound on sound and if it had tap tempo it would be too tempting for words. Put it this way- I'm broke right now but if it had tap tempo I'd go in hock for it... :icon_eek:
Quote from: DougH on June 17, 2008, 10:16:48 AM
Been a while since I checked out Danelectro but that Reel Echo is just cool as sh*t too... :icon_wink: I love the sound on sound and if it had tap tempo it would be too tempting for words. Put it this way- I'm broke right now but if it had tap tempo I'd go in hock for it... :icon_eek:
Yeah, I'm gassing for that one too. Sound clips are awesome, and it looks just f'n cool.
Quote from: Uma Floresta on June 17, 2008, 09:42:13 AM
Quote from: DougH on June 17, 2008, 09:01:06 AM
Very cool demo, Uma. :icon_wink: I love the sounds you are getting and how you found a way to separate the delay from the reverb action. What a versatile pedal!
I think this is a very cool pedal if for nothing else, the sheer uniqueness of it. It's definitely one of a kind and will remain that way for a long time, I believe. Danelectro really had their "creativity hat" on when they came up with this. It almost makes up for the sitar swami... Bwahahaha!! :icon_mrgreen: (Just kidding, I love to see someone at least trying to come up with something different, even if it doesn't always succeed.)
Now Pete, I thought by now you would have suggested throwing some tubes in it for the next mod. :icon_mrgreen:
Dang it... Now I want to get one of these...
I think it makes up for the Sitar Swami, but can anything atone for the Psycho Flange & Shift Daddy?
:icon_mrgreen:
The shift daddy is awful! I sold one at a swap meet and the guy seemed really impressed with it! I couldn't get a decent sound out of it!
More reverb fun here: http://www.electronicpeasant.com/projects/springs/springs.html (http://www.electronicpeasant.com/projects/springs/springs.html)
Also, here's a nice thread about a standalone tube reverb I guy at ax84 built: http://ax84.com/bbs/index.php?id=354602 (http://ax84.com/bbs/index.php?id=354602)
I missed this the first time around, looks really cool!
Quote from: petemoore on April 27, 2008, 08:10:05 AM
One question...is there any delay between the source and the reverb springs?..that might be neat and get a cleaner tone at attack...a slight moment of clean before springtone.
Exactly. The mods I'm thinking of, in addition the ones layed out in this thread to make the PT chip into a regular stompbox type delay-
1. Feed the spring reverb with the delay signal from PT chip, including the repeats, for longer "dwell" times and reverb decay, you could even push the PT chip to longer delay times than normal, where it would start to distort, because those blemishes might get covered over by having gotten run through the spring. One could even make a knob that would pan the spring input between the clean and the delayed.
2. Gez's idea, putting the spring in the feedback loop (awesome). Some clipping diodes might be welcome for the crazy oscillations possible with that setup. A blend thing might be interesting in this case too, by blending the feedback path between a clean one and a 100% spring path.
3. Tamer, but might still sound good: use Francisco Pena's lowpass filter from the rebote delay, to get a more tape-like sound from the delay, a poor man's space echo (spring reverb in parallel with tape delay).
Whew, I gotta get one of these... I wonder if the schematic is available in some form.
I thought by now you would have suggested throwing some tubes in it for the next mod.
Just the opposite is ~the same thing:
Throwing a digital delay line in my Tube Reverb !
QuoteJust the opposite is ~the same thing:
Throwing a digital delay line in my Tube Reverb !
Oh no, don't do that!!! You're gonna kill all the mojo!!!
Don't you know those computer electrons seek and destroy vacuum tube electrons??? :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen:
"Installing' might have been a better term for implimentation of a Digi-echo feeds reverb 'fix'.
A simple splice that could put it in could take it right back out...
Now you've got me thinking about 'tremo-verbin' it by re-assigning the tube recto to signal path tube...using a SS recto for PS.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160267193604&_trksid=p2759.l1259
Wow, someone is already trying to make money on this mod. Lame. And look, they're using my clips to sell it. I'm reporting this shiz - for using my music, obviously. I can't do anything about the mod ripoff.
Wow, what a dumbass...
Good luck with the reporting- this is gonna be fun to watch...
Quote from: DougH on August 05, 2008, 09:42:13 AM
Wow, what a dumbass...
Good luck with the reporting- this is gonna be fun to watch...
Thanks - I hope they tear the listing down. I also found one on Ebay in Spanish - reported that one too.
I wouldn't even be bothered that much, except he is using my music to sell it. These copy cat modders are getting lazier and lazier - they won't even record their own damn clips now!
Quotethey won't even record their own damn clips now!
That's pretty bad... Haha! :icon_mrgreen:
Bleedin' hell, and I thought I was lazy! They could have at least recorded some clips...fer feck's sake...
Well, the perpetrator unmasked himself - it turns out he was a poster at HC who was asking questions about the mod.
:-|
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?p=29446738&posted=1#post29446738
It finally occurred to me to check out what kind of spring is in the Spring King. I don't remember the number off hand, but going by the Accutronics coding system, it has a 10 ohm input impedance. So, I figured, that's pretty close to the 8 ohm impedance on the 4AB3C1B used in Fender outboard units. So I hooked one up to the Spring King, and it worked great! It has a noticeably longer delay time - it's also way bigger, so I'm housing it remotely in a bread box. I'm going to put a 4PDT in there so I can switch between the internal and external springs.
Some clips:
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6841987
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6841979
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6841993
For more tweaks, see this thread (especially the last few pages):
http://surfguitar101.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=5579