i have owned my share of big muffers, i like them ok, but i had a fantasy muff sound in my head. heavy , very fat and heavy but clear at the same time.
i never modded or built a muff in all my years, but i called up my buddy zac (zzagar, new member here) to propose we do some 'sperimentin.
zac did not disappoint. he met me with a full stock of parts, a paper copy of every muff variant known to man, and a great boxcar workshop we got to work.
as i viewed the schematic, i systematically (mentally) removed a bunch of parts i did not want to have in there. zac tried to convince me i should build a more stock config and mod from there. i had a different plan. i could also tell he was very skeptical that the thing would work since it was missing some things.
we fired it up, into a solid state ampeg practice amp, it worked immediately, and roared like a beast. success! zac smiled as he had one of those experiences where you just don't want to stop playing the guitar. it is obviously a muff, but stronger, clearer and fatter, with harmonics and sustain that blew us away.
we documented the beast on my little fuji cam. not sure whether to call it cherri pi, wide open muff, very eager beaver, or some other name.
( thanks to john lyons, great input, we didn't get time to try any of your ideas yet, but soon)
please tell us what you think of the videos. should we post the schematic?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7uzJYXA1iE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoXXebMYdho
one more:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bAIBjd6crc
That thing sounds AWESOME! Schematic, pretty please!
Really, it sounds beautiful...
warning- this is not a refined circuit. it was just a first pass. build it at your own peril. you have been warned.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/joegagan/biggermuff.jpg)
I see what you did there! I like it!
Nice...
I've never been much of a muff fan, but that thing sounds pretty cool. I've heard a few variations that sort of hinted at what you came up with, soundwise. It sounded like there was some potential for this circuit, and now it sounds like you really found it and exploited it.
Glad you dropped the silly tone control too.
Edit: Haha! I just noticed you don't even have a "gain" control. I love it! :icon_mrgreen: How does it respond to guitar volume dynamics?
Love it! Nice fat, high gain tone. I'm working on my own souped up muff as well, taking the opposite approach though - I'm adding a ton of flexability and options instead of going for the minimalist (albeit roaring!) stance.
Sound great Joe/Zac!
Different transistors in decreasing gains.
thanks guys.
doug, i wondered if you could be shaken from your 'all distortions sound basically alike' stance to appreciate the subtlety of this one. glad you listened to the clip. whenever i would play a big muff, i would imagine it with all the filtering stripped out.
john, are you saying that we should try tailoring the circuit by selecting lower gain trannies as opposed to other gain reduction methods?
Muff sounds great. I am going to make one up!
Joe
I got cut off on my last post as I was out the door.
But that's an idea for sure. There isn't a lot of gain reduction
going on. The 470Ks from B to E and some frequency selective
clipping via the .1 in series with the diodes to a lesser extent.
Using power gain devices may be something to try though.
Although you have done that with this version.
See if you can measure the HFE of the devices you have in there
now for kicks.
The clip sounds pretty fat without the tone network which suprised me
as the tone setup is responsible for that classic mid scoop sound of the BM.
I'm sure it cut a lot better though without that midrange scoop. Chords sound
good and HEAVY in the clip for sure.
doug, i don't think it cleans up that well with the volume knob, but at least as well as the 'sustain' pot does on a stock muff, probably better. am going to try a more touch reactive input section, still si tho.
if you look closely at my picking hand, you can see my left hand middle finger swollen. i had a nerve and tendon reconnected by surgeons 3 weeks ago, my therapist gave me all kinds of hell for taking my brace off to play my guitar.
Quote from: joegagan on April 15, 2010, 04:27:41 PM
thanks guys.
doug, i wondered if you could be shaken from your 'all distortions sound basically alike' stance to appreciate the subtlety of this one. glad you listened to the clip. whenever i would play a big muff, i would imagine it with all the filtering stripped out.
Joe, I actually started wiring this up on the breadboard last night. But I got bored about halfway through and played my guitar instead. :icon_wink: Now I remember that part of the reason I haven't done much with the muff is sheer laziness. It's a pretty complex circuit for a fuzz.
I'll get back to it though, and let you know what I think.
doug, you are funny. i had the same issue, i would look at the schem, see all those parts and blow it off.
One knob muff!! Kudos, Joe! Great to see you tweaking fuzz circuits again, and best wishes on your finger!
Great "film" Joe, love your Tele.
Very informative, shows "here's what you get when" very well, I like the Ol ampeg too.
The venue...what a cool venue, all kinds of items to view, very rich texture for the clips !
Very fuzzy, I'm thinking the E resistors on mine could be 1/2'd or better [parallel a wire across even], it doesn't do any of the super-fat fuzz stuff like that, and, thinkin' I need to open that up a few more notches. Nice circuit, I was ready to try some things anyway with it.
I use a photo-compressor in front of it, that or a booster, still doesn't get that near that level of severity, the 'middlin' ness of it is tepid, needs a k.i.a.t.pants.
Speaking of the missing gain control- Joe, what I do remember from messing with this circuit once before is I didn't find the gain control too useful. IIRC it was an all or nothing kind of deal. One knob muff that actually has a great fat tone? Yeah, sounds like a great idea.
hi marc, great to see you here. your echo looks great, is it selling well for you? i remember you telling me about it when it was in the pipeline.
pete, thanks, that video is from zac's shop , he is an ampeg freak. it is an old refrigerator car( boxcar) in a very large storage facility that houses many many railcars rented out to bands and other people. any given night you hear bands rehearsing.
i agree, it makes for a cool backdrop. zac has it set up like a cool clubhouse. we also had the benefit of western late day sun lighting everything all orange-ish.
also pete, i agree, some experiments to increase gain can be fun with this.
doug ,did you get yours built tonight?
zac, are you reading this? you gonna post anything?
Curiously, I've also been working on a stripped down big muff/jumbo tonebender derived fuzz - I've always disliked the tonestack, and it really pushes the gain up and sounds great. I did one version with the buffer, but with a sustain control and a smaller one knob version, but without the buffer. Both layouts are below:
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j190/Leeroyfunk/BW1-Verified-1.gif)
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j190/Leeroyfunk/micro_render.gif)
Joe
Take a look at the values I like in a BMP type control. Use the calculator and make sure to take note of the source and load resistance
nocentelli, maybe some soundclips, how does it sound?
gus, i will take a look. are your tone control notes in the john lyons big muff thread from last year?
Great feedback guys thank you very much! Joe as always you have a great way of summarizing our fun experiments. I've been off experimenting with DOD 440 derrivitives and hadn't tuned into the forum! But the muff we built up (even with my large amount of doubt, in the beginning) is a great little screamin circuit!
The guitar is backwards?
No Joe is a crazy lefty!! :icon_razz:
Joe is a little backwards actually. It just makes the guitar look backwards :D
john, the joke was better in its original form. time to fire whoever is censoring your jokes over there. ;)
Bah! Nothing get's by you does it. :P
With 3pdt next to the schematic, eyeing the tone control...
the Gnd. connections.
lifting the 39k and/or the .01uf would allow a lot more signal through.
As well, offering alternate values here would open up other possiblities.
To the signal path, the .004uf would look as a HF bypass to the very HFs across the 39k, {with both of the TC grounds lifted, would make a good boost, greatly reducing the TC loading.
My .01uf and 39k, that portion of the perfboard is tight, it seems like a large capacitor across the TC would offer very low impedance, perhaps I can switch a C and variable R across the TC and have a 'wider' option...maybe this time a 'mess up' [since it's populated so tightly I don't want to go in and re-do anything around the TC] makes me think of the other option...might be cool..a hole needs plugged anyway, I'll see if I can find an old switch with a reliable SPST action left in it.
pete, on the first night of soundtesting, i tried my .0018 bypassing around the 39k/input resistor, zac and i could hear nothing being added on this circuit. i was surprised. will check out your other mods.
Ive had a BMP on my breadboard for three months I was going to call mine Cherry Pi but now I will go with Phat Camel Toe.(my second choice)
I have 330n for the first and last cap .1 for all the rest /minus ceramics,no sustain pot but added the mid control (I like being able to scoop or hump the mids)and my own values to the tone control.
The lack of tone stack does sound good,so does jumping the emiter resistors,I will try that on mine.
One other difference is I used two sets of diodes in the second clipping stage (A)(1n5711 and 2x 1n5711 ) and (B)(1n914 with 3 x 1n34a) on a DPDT/3PDT switch this is for a lead boost rather than for different clipping sounds.
Since you shared your great design/and took my (not so much)top secret name LOL I will share my mods too.
Joe
This adjusting of the BMP tone
http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/gus/sickbass.GIF.html
You will need to adjust the source R in the calculator and scale the values. Try 47Ks for the 4.7Ks and .01ufs for the .1ufs and a 100K pot for the 10K pot to start.
Off topic have you looked at this?
http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/gus/wha1.gif.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1
brymus, that is very funny. small minds think alike ;) when naming guitar pedals, i think most of us are stuck in jr. high.
you can have that name, i only called it that for one day, as i said in the vid 'today i am calling it the...'
also, very interesting that you approached it very similarly to the way we did. your diode mods sound good too.
gus, i looked at the tone control on your muff type. i remember that design from 03. but that tone control baffles me a little. i will look at it some more to see if i can understand it. i will build it next chance i get.
that boomerang based experiment looks great, i will try that out!
Joe
Download this.
http://www.duncanamps.com/tsc/index.html (http://www.duncanamps.com/tsc/index.html)
Plug in Gus's values and it's a pretty cool flat mids bass and treble control.
The software is great stuff.
Quote from: joegagan on April 18, 2010, 01:10:24 PM
brymus, that is very funny. small minds think alike ;) when naming guitar pedals, i think most of us are stuck in jr. high.
you can have that name, i only called it that for one day, as i said in the vid 'today i am calling it the...'
also, very interesting that you approached it very similarly to the way we did. your diode mods sound good too.
gus, i looked at the tone control on your muff type. i remember that design from 03. but that tone control baffles me a little. i will look at it some more to see if i can understand it. i will build it next chance i get.
that boomerang based experiment looks great, i will try that out!
Hey Joe thank you, I appreciate that, but I dont sell my stuff so if you want to keep using that name please dont stop on my account.
It may be another 3 months before I actually put mine in an enclosure...And I doubt I will ever build another .
I kinda like Phat Camel Toe too,giggle giggle
Its not like I was upset about it,just thought it was funny we had the same idea.Its probably been done already as Big Muff Pi kinda lends itself to becoming Cherry Pi when trying to find something close and still keep the Pi part.
Mine is probably closer to the GGG "tuned BMP" than your design though,on account of your lack of tone control and emiter resistors.
I first tried all .1 caps (after the stock values were overwhelming bass wise) but it was too thin and after alot of trying .33 at the input and output sounded best with out getting farty again.
It never ceases to amaze me how the simplest ideas are always the best.
Glad you like the clipping diode idea,it was a stumbled onto thing when I was A/B,ing different diode combos and realized it was a good way to get a lead boost with out having two volume pots.Then I just messed with it until I got the right amount of volume difference.
"Camel Toe" was used by Way Huge in the mid 90s. Just sayin'
Given that it's stripped down to its bare essence, you could call it a "Brazilian" or something, I suppose...
Joe, haven't had a chance to do much with this lately. Had a super-busy weekend with everything but diy. I'll report back in this thread when I get a chance to try it out.
Doesn anyone remember the Mos Mango? I think Frank Clarke used Mosfets for the 2nd and 3rd stages. :icon_cool:
I like using fixed Twin-T notch filters at the end of the circuit. You can modify the Duncan Tonestack to do the calculations and get whatever notch suits your fancy. :icon_twisted:
This thread has got my juices going. I really have to breadboard this baby. I'm thinking that "Landing Strip" might be a good name too...
heh heh landing strip.
wgtp, that is a good add, the twin t at end. eventually i will have to put a tone control on it i think.
It's been around for some time, but I still like it (though I could be accused of a certain bias):
http://home-wrecker.com/whisker.html
Thanks Joe, that sounds moohoosive.
I like the idea of some form of filter, think I will breadboard it with a tonemender tonight 'just to see'. But surely it needs to be switchable, because it would be a shame to lose the breadth in the original sound.
On the subject of juvenile names, I made a modded Muff Fuzz and called it the Ladygarden. Because your design sounds much fatter I'm going to call it Lardygarden when I get it finished up. Maybe.
Quote from: B Tremblay on April 19, 2010, 07:25:51 PM
It's been around for some time, but I still like it (though I could be accused of a certain bias):
http://home-wrecker.com/whisker.html
I like the reduced number of diodes in this version. One big PITA about muff circuits are all the feedback diode clippers, with smoothing caps, in addition to feedback caps, blah, blah, etc, etc... Drives me nuts after a while...
Quote from: DougH on April 20, 2010, 08:42:41 AM
I like the reduced number of diodes in this version. One big PITA about muff circuits are all the feedback diode clippers, with smoothing caps, in addition to feedback caps, blah, blah, etc, etc... Drives me nuts after a while...
Absolutely, Doug. I was very happy to find that the Bazz Fuss can do nearly all the work of those two clipping stages in the BMP with far fewer parts. I did tweak the tonestack components a bit when I built one last summer. If anyone is interested, I can post them. I also tried making a Fetzer Biscuit, out of curiosity. I measured Vp and Idss of the FETs to determine appropriate fixed resistors. The sound wasn't remarkably different since the BF adds so much of its character, but fun to try.
Okay Joe, I gave this a try last night.
In short- I love it. The harmonics it generates are insane, and it sustains forever. But it doesn't have the "cloudiness", or buzziness, or fizziness of a typical muff, which is the reason I don't really care for them. It sounds much more "natural", and works with your guitar sound instead of replacing it with "fuzz box sound". Chords and single notes ring out nice and clear but it has this insane sustain/harmonic thing going with a good aggressive clip. It's just really a lot of fun to play.
I tried it with my Hamer with PAF humbuckers through my 2W Dragonfly amp and Swamp Thang speaker dialed down clean. The amp/speaker combination is warm and forgiving. Although the distortion was smooth, overall the timbre was a little bright. So I added a cap in parallel to the 10k collector resistor of the last stage to EQ it a little. Somewhere between .0033 and .0047 seems about right. I also subbed the last (output) .1u coupling cap with a 1u to get some more bass. It was a little thin sounding compared to the bypassed dry guitar sound.
Otherwise, AFAIC this thing is good to go. No gain control needed. I dialed my guitar vol down and it wasn't that interesting. The "full gain" sound is great, not overly fuzzed or anything and I don't see much use for lowering the gain. It's not an overdrive. Some people like playing with those bmp tone controls, but I don't really see the need on this one IMO. I'd love to box this up as-is in a 1590B and call it a day. Cool sound!
Edit: I just realized it might be fun to try subbing the .05 with a .1u to fatten it up a little. That may be part of the reason for some of the thinness.
Opening the circuit up [smaller R's at the Q2 and Q3 emitters], is preferred for certain here, the cloud lifted, the sound Rams through more compressed and even sounding, easily gets near 'overbright' on attacks [perfect], generally lost the dullness aspect...this kept it shelved more than the other distorters.
Also threw a AC128* B/E connection across the second diode set for kicks.
*newish type GE transistor is otherwise noisy, makes fine diode.
I've got some leaky Ge power transistors I should try for clipping. Good idea Pete!
One thing I forgot to mention is I used plastic 2n2222's with hfe ~250. I got a bag of them for 79 cents at radio shack. I love 2n2222's in si fuzzes.
As the sustain knob isn't that brilliant has anybody tried a blend control at the end with a boosted clean signal, like a sparkle drive?
I find the idea of a gain control on this to be fairly useless. YMMV.
simon, funny you mention that. that was my next experiment, but we got thwarted last night when we couldn't get our 2nd breadboarded example (reference unit) to work. i like the idea of a blend, would like to put it in a waH pedal type.
doug, glad you got it and that you enjoyed playing it. as this thread progressed, it shows that lots of people had already done similar circuits.
Well hopefully the enthusiasm won't die down for this. It is really pretty cool.
Yes! I need another overdrive! I will be celebrating something soon and this looks like it will be fun. If it sounds as good as Doug says, It will be "Mr. Muff" to everyone else!
Cool! I think you should call it... The Commando
hahahahaha I finally saw the video. OK, ok, I will build it. I think it has enough sustain :-) GOOD JOB JOE!
What IS it about Joe's that get incredible sustain.
um, telecaster?
um, fingers?
"He's a magic man!"
Bottom line is Joe is a FUZZ HEAD!! :icon_biggrin:
no no no, what I meant is JOE'S <--- note the S, as in Joe Gagan, Joe Davisson etc....
:-)
We all know he is getting sustain despite the Telecaster :-)
don't forget joe bonamossa and joe walsh :P :icon_mrgreen: :icon_redface:
thanks for the compliment, aron. when i first heard it, thought of you right away.
I might have a go at this one, Joe --sounds great, even on youtube.
That stupid seesaw tone-control was 1/2 the reason I sold my old triangle knob "oh...you want bass with that treble? Sorry..."
A simple treble-cut at the end, and maybe a switchable low-cap usually works for me.
Take care of that finger --they don't heal as well (or fast) as they used to.
Yeah, I'm starting to think it needs a simple treble cut tone control on the end. I tried it with my windsor and it was more "toppy" sounding. That rolloff needs to be adjustable for different amps.
Quote from: Eric H on April 22, 2010, 02:46:03 AM
That stupid seesaw tone-control was 1/2 the reason I sold my old triangle knob "oh...you want bass with that treble? Sorry..."
I know, don't you hate that? That stupid stock BMP tone control is one of the worst IMO.
yeah, seesaw is a great term. never heard that one. eric is always a funny cat.
I don't like the small sweet spot of the stock BM tone control either.
One thing I've been meaning to try is using a 50K pot and 25k fixed resistors at either end.
This way you would cut off the mostly unusable extreme bass and treble settings.
ROG props for that idea.
Either that or put some resistance between the low pass cap and ground making a shelved type
LP filter...and maybe doing something similar on the HP side.
I use a pot for controlling the mids on the BM circuits I've done. It's more useful than adjusting
the typically narrow bass/treble sweet spot.
Seems like the SWTC (stupidly wonderful tone control by mark hammer) would work great in
Joe's circuit here. A 10K pot with a .02ish cap connected to the wiper, signal to hot/3 and output taken off lug 1/cold.
The level remains fairly un affected and you only use a pot and a cap. You can put a resistor in between the
cap and ground to make the filter more of a shelved response.
Quote from: John Lyons on April 22, 2010, 09:55:54 PM
I use a pot for controlling the mids on the BM circuits I've done. It's more useful than adjusting
the typically narrow bass/treble sweet spot.
Makes sense.
Quote
Seems like the SWTC (stupidly wonderful tone control by mark hammer) would work great in
Joe's circuit here.
Another circuit I've been meaning to try, but I quit building before Mark posted it. This circuit looks like a perfect place to try that one.
I've been down all those roads (no knobs, too-many-knobs) and, like most people, am never satisfied ;-)
-Eric
i JUST tuned into this thread. is the schematic posted on page 1 what everyone is raving about, or have they're been some revisions since?
no revisions.
everything sits on the breadboard just like it did in the video. there is a slight gaff, a .05 instead of a .1 between q2 and q3 ( zac, verify please)
our further development involved attempting to breadboard a near-identical sounding unit on a 2nd breadboard so that we can mod away without losing track of the original tone.
we used all matching components for #2, we still need to put 8 of the same trannies in. also , we had a problem getting the second one to work, and haven't been back to it yet.
before i try any tone controls, i am testing a clean blend similar to a sparkle drive as a sort of gain control. full wet will have to sound as good as the video tone to pass muster.
for the blender version, i plan to mount it in a wah casing and use the blend function. one knob on the side for level. i have procured two momentary (non locking) on/on switches that will be mechanically lashed together, mounted at the heel down area wired exactly as a dpdt. when your heel is full down, true bp. when the pedal moves an eighth inch, the clean side of the blend is engaged. the trick will be making the transition from bypass to buffered as transparent as possible. no switch in the normal wah sw location. virtually no mechanical click, should be pretty smooth. will let you know how it goes.
Maybe an NFB gain control (like on the axis fuzz and tycho) might be more useful than the stock BMP sustain control, too. I thought about trying that. A simple 100k pot with cap to ground shelving EQ (like on a guitar) would probably suffice as a tone control for me. The only point of a tone control AFAIC would be to match it to all my amps.
Cryptic language warning...
Breadboard a BMP, right now, do not read below this line.
Failure to do so could cause your BMP to sound like mine.
It was like dunking under water, the sound turned into thudlike snorkel midrange tones...sorta speakin'.
Gave the kind of feeling "can't this be right?'' when used.
Now I hit that switch and it's the Fuzz ! As only a touch of the old mud-water rolls off there but a whole new beast [with teeth] emerged.
Pretty amazing how 4 transistors could be dull, questionable integrity, slow sounding.
But when fundamentally altered, they just whip right past the "my #1 Fuzz" I'd been moslty preferring the whole time since it passed up the DS-1, #1 spot is where the 'lit' BMP landed.
I like the idea still, light *it up just enough then throw the gas on at a rate that doesn't [metered with compressors voltage divider] so it doesn't use up all the 'oxygen', then swamp it so there's no breathing room to keep up with oxygen demand until very relaxed [as the note sustains it ''breaks the surface''.
*it: Whatever the limiting distortion's engine is, *it could be anything or even manything [circuit-wise.
As far as tone and treble controls are concerned, deal with the bass so it swamps the circuit [or not]...get that figured out early on in the X process so the bass definition is or isn't disabled, this may requires very intuitive or extensive tweeekenning, to sprinkle in the LF rollof across some portion of the circuit, then figure out how the 'open the swamp bass' switch goes.
with the bass opened up...the sustain knob starts being of use to reduce the bass swamping, we may not want that.
You're speaker will need that treble control after you walks it.
Make sure you can have too many HF's with the normal amp sound, when adjusting on thise HF control cap value and VR, [signal path-V/R-Capacitor-Gnd., across Vcontrol], at some point you may try the treble control on your amp as a way to let the highs 'scrape on past' everything...except the very last taming device.
my brother used to talk about recording with engineers who came from the brit, or EMI school of thought. the thinking was, get the most high fi ( lots of upper end ) signal to tape, then you have the widest spectrum to work with later. thinking is that you can subtract without sounding too artificial more than if you add eq, which sounds artificial.
two problems. the artist has a tinny crappy tone in the cans, which we all know can be pretty uninspiring. second, you've put the faith 100% in the mixing engineers to get your tone right, often long after you've laid down your tracks if you are a sideman like my brother is.
this relates to what pete just said, i think, let the highs through all the way to the amp and deal with it at the amp. pretty nice, but you have to tailor all your pedals' eq to this equation for live multi pedal setups. for recording, i often use one pedal into an amp for specific part and tailor the whole sound around that pedal. so, for those instances, pete's method is fine and possibly preferable.
doug, you are correct, i am thinking of installing a jumpered socket on the output area with a trimpot to ground so that a tone cap could be installed to cut highs for specific amps. all this to keep it a one knob pedal ha ha.
Quote from: joegagan on April 23, 2010, 11:44:44 AM
this relates to what pete just said, i think, let the highs through all the way to the amp and deal with it at the amp. pretty nice, but you have to tailor all your pedals' eq to this equation for live multi pedal setups.
This works fine if you can control everything with your guitar volume. If you can clean up to a decent clean tone and control different levels of gain, this works great. But with this design (so far) you're going to be playing full-bore all the time until you shut it off. Then you are stuck with a ho-hum tone from your amp because of the treble rolloff. Nothing wrong with a little EQ, if for nothing else, to allow it to work with different amps. I don't view it as a "tone" control as in "wow, I'm going to dial in different tones- scoop/push mids, etc". I view it more as an adjustment to make it more flexible for different setups.
exactly. doug, you and i were already thinking the same way on this.
also, in my case, i leave a brontoboost on as a preamp of sorts , which has a nice high end content, the treble on my vibrolux is usually on 2 or 3. so if i were to use this muff and turn the bronto off, it would probably fit in nicely. the biggest overall complaint about the bronto was that it was too toppy, which caused the tone dog mod ( which, among other things added exactly the type of tone control we are talking about here) to be created.
on the otherhand , some people's setups are perfect for high endy pedals. some really juicy tones result. (rip roy buchanan)
I used to do that with a Rangemaster. Kept the amp treble turned low and kept the Rangemaster on all the time. Great clean tones with the guitar vol on 5-7, then max it for juicy leads.
If you're playing loud enough, most of the treble concerns go away ;-)
Interesting guitar/amp tone set up (Sabbath/Iommi/ramaster) talk:
So you play your amp pretty low treble Joe...
item 1: Iommi plays the neck pickup. You can see this clear as day in the video footage David posted.
item 2: Iommi plays with his guitar's tone knob rolled down, and opens it up during solos to enhance his feedback effects, and you can also see this in the same footage, and countless live performances. He rides the tone knob the way other guys ride the volume knob.
Put those two details together, and you would imagine his tone would be deeper than hell, but its not! Here's why:
Item 3: Iommi used really @#$%ing light gauge strings(by necessity), I mean crazy light, like .30 something low E. Buh bye lows!
Item 4: He said in an early interview he turned bass on his amps all the way down, so even if he is boosting low end on his guitar, its not making it past the amp's tone stack, but why would he do that? Because...
Item 5: Boosting an already filtered signal with a new heavy EQ curve is going to cause a higher resonance curve and give a much sharper frequency range. When it comes to filters and resonance, the slope of the filter has a dramatic effect on tone. A 24 pole lo-pass sounds nothing like a 48 pole, especially with even minor resonance increases. So what he did was cut his highs on the guitar, and amplify what was left of that at the amp, while simultaneously cutting the low end, which leaves...
Very sharp, resonant upper mids.
I'm pretty sure this is the Iommi tone formula, or at least, a significant part of it.
Full Thread:
item 1: Iommi plays the neck pickup. You can see this clear as day in the video footage David posted.
item 2: Iommi plays with his guitar's tone knob rolled down, and opens it up during solos to enhance his feedback effects, and you can also see this in the same footage, and countless live performances. He rides the tone knob the way other guys ride the volume knob.
Put those two details together, and you would imagine his tone would be deeper than hell, but its not! Here's why:
Item 3: Iommi used really @#$%ing light gauge strings(by necessity), I mean crazy light, like .30 something low E. Buh bye lows!
Item 4: He said in an early interview he turned bass on his amps all the way down, so even if he is boosting low end on his guitar, its not making it past the amp's tone stack, but why would he do that? Because...
Item 5: Boosting an already filtered signal with a new heavy EQ curve is going to cause a higher resonance curve and give a much sharper frequency range. When it comes to filters and resonance, the slope of the filter has a dramatic effect on tone. A 24 pole lo-pass sounds nothing like a 48 pole, especially with even minor resonance increases. So what he did was cut his highs on the guitar, and amplify what was left of that at the amp, while simultaneously cutting the low end, which leaves...
Very sharp, resonant upper mids.
I'm pretty sure this is the Iommi tone formula, or at least, a significant part of it.
http://stompboxes.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6041&hilit=Iommi%27s+rangemaster (http://stompboxes.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6041&hilit=Iommi%27s+rangemaster)
Well, thanks allot Joe & Zac!!! Because of you I had to get a bigger breadboard and am wrapping up my FET project without any further experimentation! Your videos sound great. I wasn't too interested in fuzzes till now and am anxious to get started.
I don't know the difference between diodes so can can anyone tell me how 1N914B would make a difference? I too have a couple of super leaky Ge trannys I will try.
Thanks again for posting this circuit. I suppose there may some refinements before I am able to start on it (accompanied by more videos, I hope ;) ).
thank you for the compliment, wild e. good luck with the breadboarding.
i posted one of the outtake vids at tinypic, , somebody tell me, is the audio better , worse or the same as the previously posted youtube vids. (same camera, mic, recorded exactly at same session etc, only difference is hosting site). thanks in advance for the feedback
oops , link
http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=avsrpj&s=5
edit: in my testing the youtube wins the tone test hands down. both were loaded straight to each site from the raw avi files. i find that one stage of compression ( ie: youtube's compression) is preferable.
Wild E,
As far as diodes, in my experience, 1N914's provide some nice hard, but smooth clipping in the circuit. Joe and I experimented with these. 1N4148's were used in the original BMPs. Both of these diodes are SI and if you want to get a even harder edge try some 1N4001s. As far as GEs I've had good results but the sustain and amount of gain on tap tends to be more limited. It would be cool to mess with leaky transisors as diodes in the first stage and the 1n914s in the stages following or a combination of both the SI's and GE's in all gain stages. The modification possiblities are endless! Thanks for the kudos. Continue to post any results!
Whoa!!!
I've breadboarded this sucka and I have to say "hello, nurse!!!!". This thing is seriously filthy and I like that. I used a .47uf as the input cap and since I ran out of 1n914 diodes, I used 1n4001 as clippers (I might try LED's just because...). Transistors are 2n5089, but I have some bc109c workalikes that I want to try. I also want to try sticking in a SWTC in there just to see what the difference is. In any case, this might be the proverbial "cat's ass" for a fuzz for me... Thank's Joe and Zach for putting this up there!!!
Quotethis might be the proverbial "cat's ass" for a fuzz for me...
???
Can't say I've ever heard that one...I assume that's a good thing, but having been a cat owner for many decades, it doesn't seem pleasant to me.
If you think this is the "cat's ass" have you tried a skyripper? :icon_twisted:
chris, thanks, glad you built one.
please let us know how the different diodes and trannies sound. also, i was interested in how the stupidly wunnerful would work in there, i haven't had enough time to experiment, would like to hear your results.
ry, thanks, we go back a ways, huh?
I recently re-built my skyripper on vero to save space and get it into a smaller enclosure. Man, it's still my main fuzz...all these years later. I probably need to tune it a little more, it doesn't seem to do the crazy stuff my last build did, but the tone is not lacking anything!
This new muff design is next on my build list...I can't wait to try it out!
yes, the 4.5v and 1.0v bias readings at s4 are critical. a bit of a balancing act. i should probably revamp those trimmers and the s4 arrangement for easier biasing.
I saw the video on youtube, and had to stop in here. It sounds seriously amazing. It really does sound like that Muff sound I hear in my head, but get so bored trying to coax out of my standard BM pedals. I'm going to hopefully try and build one pretty soon here.
Joe, were you in standard tuning on the video? Also, it sounds pretty meaty on the video, but how would the bass compare to that of any other BM (EHX or non)?
Thanks!
And first post yay! :icon_twisted:
Interesting that everyone loves this Big Muff varient that omits the standard BMP tonestack and meanwhile on the "other" forum the Cornish "Gilmore" muff has been degooped and sure enough..... No traditional BMP tonestack there either!
fooper,welcome. standard tuning. small strings.
cafe, interesting, i did not know that. but i believe it.
Quote from: Caferacernoc on April 27, 2010, 03:52:20 PM
on the "other" forum the Cornish "Gilmore" muff has been degooped
Is Gilmore a member now?
Guess I need to go by there once in a while
Ok; here;s an update for anyone concerned:
I realized that my 9 volts are both running at about 5 volts, so I'm not truly sure how things will sound until I hit the store. l tried BC109c workalikes; not so good, 2N5089s are better. Stuck the SWTC with a 1k resistor and .0022uf cap on there and it will probably help tame some of the high end depending on the amp. I'm currently trying this out through an older solid state Park practice amp, and I haven't had the chance to check it with my Bedrock or Night Train. I'm liking 1N4001 as clippers so far, but I tried some 5mm red leds in the second clipping section and really dug the attack...
After building and using a "Swollen Pickle" clone, this thing is a real must have!
Now to start dropping the circuit into Eagle so I can make a layout...
Dumbmon,
Thanks for the great feedback and I'm gonna try the leds, also Joe and I are looking at options for high rolloff.
Cafe,
I hadn't heard that, thanks for the info. Kinda crazy but makes sense.
Joe,
I originally doubted how much buzz this thread would create (no pun intended) but after reviewing our vids, Ms. Fuzzy Muff, Cherry Pi, Mega Muff, what ever you want to call it, makes that SS Ampeg scream!!
i also bread boarded this beast and i also agree that it is wonderfully filthy. i tried 2n2222's, bc107's, bc109's, and 2n5089's. the 2n2222's were the smoothest. the bc107's were pretty filthy. the bc109's were sort of blah when compared to the others. the 2n5089's were a higher gain version of what i was hearing with the bc107's. all the tranny's were selected at random. i like the the whole single knob idea behind this so i'm just gonna slap a cap at the end and let it bleed. i had a lot of fun playing with this today instead of doing my work. it's a great sounding circuit. thanks for sharing it.
Anyone gettin some mean oscillation whenever the volume is turned past 12'oclock? I twisted wires in my build just to clean things up a bit but I made sure not to twist any output wires with input wires. Any ideas?
Also , I've got a perf layout done but I've spent most of the day on this so I think I'll wait a bit before typing that up.
Pics speak volumes. Show us whatcha got and we can help you.
we had no oscillations, our wires are still spread out the same way shown in the video. we have not gotten back to troubleshooting the second breadboard version. we haven't put one in an enclosure yet.
will be curious to hear your results.
here is a layout i did, and yes i'm a total sucker for balance/symmetry, http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/foxfire/biggermuff/BIGGERMUFF+LAYOUT.png.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1 i haven't built it yet so if you decide to use it you may want to double check it for yourself. with that said i wouldn't post it if i wasn't pretty dang sure it wasn't good...
AWRIGHT
Stopped the oscillation but I changed three things all at once so theres no telling which was the solution.
I changed the my LED resistor from 2k to 1k. I changed the power input from being plugged directly into the 1spot to being plugged into the 1spot along with all my other pedals. Finally , right before I tried it out I made an offering of three goats to the fuzz gods then jumped through fire eleven times. I think it was the goats that did it.
This pedal sounds great but for some reason I feel like mine sounds somewhat different from Joe's. Mine leans more toward the distortion side with a ton of sustain while I feel like Joes is heavy fuzz. What I really enjoy about both of them is that they seem to retain the picking attack which adds more clarity to the sound.
Also, you sure your guitar is in standard tuning? It sounds downtuned in the video, I think i got contact high from watching it.
EDIT:
Just played it through an amp turned up slightly past bedroom volume levels. Now the pedal sounds like the one in the video.
Quote from: John Lyons on April 22, 2010, 09:55:54 PM
I don't like the small sweet spot of the stock BM tone control either.
One thing I've been meaning to try is using a 50K pot and 25k fixed resistors at either end.
This way you would cut off the mostly unusable extreme bass and treble settings.
ROG props for that idea.
Either that or put some resistance between the low pass cap and ground making a shelved type
LP filter...and maybe doing something similar on the HP side.
I use a pot for controlling the mids on the BM circuits I've done. It's more useful than adjusting
the typically narrow bass/treble sweet spot.
Seems like the SWTC (stupidly wonderful tone control by mark hammer) would work great in
Joe's circuit here. A 10K pot with a .02ish cap connected to the wiper, signal to hot/3 and output taken off lug 1/cold.
The level remains fairly un affected and you only use a pot and a cap. You can put a resistor in between the
cap and ground to make the filter more of a shelved response.
Another way around that is to just use a smaller value tone control pot. Like 50k or 25k. Squeezes a little more volume out of the circuit too. Apart from that though the Big Muff tone control is a bummer. Really sucks the life out of things. I have an 80's muff with the tone bypass and never used the tone control...
--Brad
Quote from: SeanI on April 29, 2010, 04:59:54 PM
AWRIGHT
Stopped the oscillation but I changed three things all at once so theres no telling which was the solution.
I changed the my LED resistor from 2k to 1k. I changed the power input from being plugged directly into the 1spot to being plugged into the 1spot along with all my other pedals. Finally , right before I tried it out I made an offering of three goats to the fuzz gods then jumped through fire eleven times. I think it was the goats that did it.
This pedal sounds great but for some reason I feel like mine sounds somewhat different from Joe's. Mine leans more toward the distortion side with a ton of sustain while I feel like Joes is heavy fuzz. What I really enjoy about both of them is that they seem to retain the picking attack which adds more clarity to the sound.
Also, you sure your guitar is in standard tuning? It sounds downtuned in the video, I think i got contact high from watching it.
EDIT:
Just played it through an amp turned up slightly past bedroom volume levels. Now the pedal sounds like the one in the video.
Would you say it has as much bass as a standard BM?
yes.
Breadboarded this puppy Sunday on my brand new giant breadboard. Sure looked pretty. After a little jiggling I got it to work. Had to play at low volume and I began to think I had to learn to tweek this. No playing yesterday. Today I was able to crank it up a bit. Man oh freakin man!!! What a sound!!! Bass? Yeah it's there, I turned up the highs on my amp. Sustain? You can hold a note long enough to forget which song you were playing.
Substitutions:
1N914 diodes
500 K Vol pot (All I had with leads)
Q1-Q4 Motorola 2N2222
It's great as it is and I don't want to experiment with the clipping but I will because I can. :icon_evil:
Thanks guys, this will be one of my sounds.
I left out not too fuzzy!
Quote from: foxfire on April 29, 2010, 11:59:49 AM
here is a layout i did, and yes i'm a total sucker for balance/symmetry, http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/foxfire/biggermuff/BIGGERMUFF+LAYOUT.png.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1 i haven't built it yet so if you decide to use it you may want to double check it for yourself. with that said i wouldn't post it if i wasn't pretty dang sure it wasn't good...
Thanks.
Have you tried this out yet?
According to the schematic the cap after the 39k resistor after Q3 should be .05uf
Also, what is the extra cap in the bottom right corner?
Quote from: mattpas on May 04, 2010, 11:40:58 PM
Also, what is the extra cap in the bottom right corner?
my guess is that it is a tone cap to tame the highs for particular amp or guitars that need the highs killed a little.
wild, e, thanks for the report, sounds great!
Quote from: joegagan on April 23, 2010, 02:37:25 AM
everything sits on the breadboard just like it did in the video. there is a slight gaff, a .05 instead of a .1 between q2 and q3 ( zac, verify please)
Sorry, Joe. I've come in late on this thread and I'm confused by this comment. Are you saying your build has the ,05 or that the schem should have the ,05?
Cheers, it's right up there on my next fx to build.
i have to double check the next time i am at zac's shop.
After Q2 you follow into the gain stage of Q3. The cap between Q2 & Q3 should be a .05uf. The cap after Q3 as well as after the 39k resistor should also be .05uf. In the original schematic Joe posted we had set both of these capacitors values at .1uf, then upon making our duplicate breadboard we realized the values of these capacitors. Hope this clears up any confusion. Z
Quote from: mattpas on May 04, 2010, 11:40:58 PM
Quote from: foxfire on April 29, 2010, 11:59:49 AM
here is a layout i did, and yes i'm a total sucker for balance/symmetry, http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/foxfire/biggermuff/BIGGERMUFF+LAYOUT.png.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1 i haven't built it yet so if you decide to use it you may want to double check it for yourself. with that said i wouldn't post it if i wasn't pretty dang sure it wasn't good...
Thanks.
Have you tried this out yet?
According to the schematic the cap after the 39k resistor after Q3 should be .05uf
Also, what is the extra cap in the bottom right corner?
no i haven't had the time to built it yet. i just looked it over again and i'm gonna say that i'm 99.9% sure it's good to go. i miss read Joe's follow up statement and thought that he was implying that it should have been a 0.1µF cap...in light of the preceding follow up posts i changed my layout. and yes the unmarked cap is there to bleed some highs to ground. i left it unmarked cause i'm not sure i'm gonna use it and or what value i would use, yet...
I built something a lot like Joe's schematic, but with the typical BMP midscoop tone and some mismatched diodes. I live nearby Zac and Joe and demo-ed it for them -- they didn't throw it out of the shop so that was encouraging. May as well have left the gain control off mine too though, it's all the way up or it's weak. I will breadboard another one with a different tone control or without one at all once I solve what's on there now.
Zack has a great shop, and everything in it sounds like a million bucks. By coincidence, I saw Joe play at a local club a few months before meeting him and wondered who the lefty was with the gritty telecaster. Took me awhile at the shop to figure out it was the same guy. Small town
Anyhow, three cheers for fuzz
Breaker / Billy-
Thank you for the kind words! Its always a pleasure to get to experiment with circuits together!! Now if only i could get Mr. Gagan back in the shop :icon_lol: we would have a trio of Mad Scientists!!
I'll bring a breadboard and some Dr. Pepper and an enormous bag of catladyman's spdt's
Funny that this thread comes back up just before I was about to revive it...
This may have been done before but if not I suggest you try this. Go tohttp://www.runoffgroove.com/index.html (http://www.runoffgroove.com/index.html) and cook up a Fetzer Valve. Place the Fetzer Valve (minus the 1 meg resistor) between the output cap and the volume pot. This adds a nice bite and some cool breakup, sort of distortion-like but you get to keep the sustain. :icon_twisted:I would imagine it will work with any Muff or variant.
don't let doug hammond catch you adding more parts to the muff!
wild e, funny you mention this. zac has a new modded muff that includes an additional gainstage (biplolar trans) after everything. it sounds great, and adds the ability to get more range in the overdrive and less fuzzy sounds. more on this variant later.
so i finally got around to building this guy last week and it sounds really good. i haven't had a chance to really have at it yet but i may swap the 470pF's on Q2 and 3 for some 220pF's to get some more nasty out of it. i was wondering about the voltages on Q4, if i remember correctly i'm getting something like C- 2.6, B-2.1, and E-1.something or other. i put the last gain stage on my breadboard and everything checked out so i guess all is good. i just was just surprised to not see the collector up around 4v...
I also built this up, and just fired it up. Put 5089's in it, and it does sound slightly mis-biased. Also, I do not have the singing sustain I was expecting on single notes (nor as much overall sustain as I'm used to with a BM). Which resistor(s) would I mess around with to work on fixing that?
EQ is good though, easily controllable off guitar tone control. Might be a little bright for some.
Quotedon't let doug hammond catch you adding more parts to the muff!
Ironic that I did that. This ckt. has been sitting on my breadboard waiting for me to come up with the smallest possible layout then I add 6 more components!
I'm not sure if I'll leave the Fetzer there, but if I do it'll be switchable.
Thanks again for bringing me into The Fuzz Realm.
Quote from: joegagan on June 13, 2010, 09:33:46 AM
don't let doug hammond catch you adding more parts to the muff!
LOL!! :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen:
Thanks Joe, for bringing me to the brink of almost building a Muff again. :icon_wink:
(I ended up building the Anderton comparator fuzz aka "optimum fuzz adapter" instead... :icon_wink: Now my fuzz itch is scratched again, for a while...)
Digging up an oldie here... but did anyone try this kinda experiment with an Op-Amp Big Muff? :icon_eek: I have a Bassist Friend and wanted to build him a christmas present and having no idea what bassists like pedal wise, I thought that might be a good laugh.
Oh and by the way, verified vero, it's big because I made it quickly for someone unexperienced so wanted there to be plenty of spare space to make it clear and not worry myself over jumpers might still fit in a 1590B though -
(http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac182/Scruffie_Crow/OneKnobBigMuff.gif?t=1288755995)
Quote from: Scruffie on November 02, 2010, 11:47:42 PM
Digging up an oldie here... but did anyone try this kinda experiment with an Op-Amp Big Muff? :icon_eek: I have a Bassist Friend and wanted to build him a christmas present and having no idea what bassists like pedal wise, I thought that might be a good laugh.
Oh and by the way, verified vero, it's big because I made it quickly for someone unexperienced so wanted there to be plenty of spare space to make it clear and not worry myself over jumpers might still fit in a 1590B though -
(http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac182/Scruffie_Crow/OneKnobBigMuff.gif?t=1288755995)
Bassists, I'd give 'em a blend control to dial in some extra definition.
1 BMP stage is a buffer, so half the work is done.
Here's my 0.02 on Muffs...
Stock re-issue modded to have 220pF feedback caps after each stage, instead of the stock 470pF.
Input Cap reduced to 0.2uF.
Add a DPDT switch to bypass the tone stack (which I don't mind...)
Fuzz Face set to 'medium rare' before it for extra kick... :icon_twisted:
Cheers.
Has somebody make a clone of the METAL MUFF????? can anybody an idea for these???
scruffie, thanks for putting that vero together. looks great.
if you don't mind, the credit should be modified to include zac zagar on your graphic ( not getting too worried, it's still just a muff, we did not re-invent the wheel).
build this one, folks, you will not be dissapointed. what you hear in the video is a good representation.
I know it's been a while, but I finally got around to finishing one of these for myself. I love it! It's truly loud and nasty and it's found a place on my pedalboard. I ended up putting a SWTC on the end to tame the highs a bit, which was a good idea because it was pretty sharp with my amp. My build is a bit hissy though, should I think about using some shielded cable for the ins and outs?
anyone made a pcb for this yet? i can make one but i dont know if it will work.
bbed this thing and i have to say i love this thing. good job op
Quote from: clamup1 on February 15, 2011, 10:19:43 PM
anyone made a pcb for this yet? i can make one but i dont know if it will work.
bbed this thing and i have to say i love this thing. good job op
I will if someone etches me one :icon_mrgreen:
i made one but photobucket makes the pics too small to see. photobucket sucks ass. i might just bite the bullet and make one and see
@scruffie- you make a layout ill make you a board
thanks guys. dumbmonkey, shielded cables from input to switch(ground only at the jack side) always seem to help, but don't look for a miracle. the noise is the isthe noise is th....
Here we go then, Unverified PCB, Will fit in a 1590B No Problem though, Onboard Pot as always, Mount on the back of the board.
(http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac182/Scruffie_Crow/OneKnobBigMuffSS.gif?t=1297890535)
(http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac182/Scruffie_Crow/OneKnobBigMuff-1.gif?t=1297890535)
Board Measures 50.80mm x 50.80mm
If someone wants to convert it to PDF, PM me and i'll e-mail you the Express PCB file, I don't have anywhere to host PDFs.
I just built this and it sounds really great. I thought I would post the vero layout that I made for it. I wrote in the cap values that I used but you can obviously swap them out for the "stock" values.
(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb62/HippieAdrien/Picture5.png)
Edit: I just realized C4 needs to be in microfarads.
I built one up today and it's spectacular. Dunno what I did wrong on my previous attempt a few months back, just trashed that one :D
I made a few *minor* changes, most of which I couldn't tell you whether they have any real effect or not but anyways :P
-put a pulldown resistor at the input after initially firing it up and having more noise than I liked
-Q1 to ground thru a 226R not 2.2K
-1N914 diodes as that's what I have lots of
-10K added between the 2nd & 3rd stages. No real reason, just seemed 'right' when looking at various schems for this circuit and variations.
-the 39K after the 3rd stage seemed more like part of the tone stack, so I reduced that to 10K, continuity with above.
-in the same vein, I used 15K not 10K at the top right corner. Supposedly that's also higher gain, which would fit with my general goal.
I socketed the .05 and last 0.1 caps but ended up using those values. It's got lots of bottom end, might be a touch boomy with some rigs.
I did put a SWTC at the end and am glad I did, just for a bit of treble cut ability. Used a 25K log pot with 825R and .022 initially but that was too dark, dropped the cap to .01 and that seemed to be just about right. I'll run it wide open for home volume but can see where it might get a bit spikey at megavolume, - can take a little or quite a bit of top end off with Mr. Hammer's lovely little circuit.
Tried it with a Tele and a Vibrochamp, also SuperSonic22. And my kid ran his 335 copy thru the SS22. He ended up absconding the pedal he liked it so much, and he's really not a fuzz guy. I call that a win.
One last note, with either guitar's volume wide open and the strings muted, it was dead silent...so, it can be done. Didn't use shielded cables but did put some ferrite beads at the input and power in, for whatever that's worth.
awesome, nice report.
and thanks again to scruffie for documenting and the layout work. thanks to blooze man for the additions.
Stupid question here, but since there's no tonestack, why not just leave out Q4 altogether?
that basically comes down to whether or not there is enough volume after the two stages of negative feedback clipping
and that I don't know
Quote from: Skreddy on March 13, 2011, 07:58:34 PM
Stupid question here, but since there's no tonestack, why not just leave out Q4 altogether?
hi marc.
i like the output to be high. the diode clipping seems to put enough squash on things that a makeup stage makes sense.
this circuit sounded so good when first fired up, i didn't want to change a thing.
Sounds friggin awesome. Did you get the mics btw?
Quote from: joegagan on March 14, 2011, 09:38:23 AM
Quote from: Skreddy on March 13, 2011, 07:58:34 PM
Stupid question here, but since there's no tonestack, why not just leave out Q4 altogether?
hi marc.
i like the output to be high. the diode clipping seems to put enough squash on things that a makeup stage makes sense.
this circuit sounded so good when first fired up, i didn't want to change a thing.
I'm also the same IDEA don't change anything it's sound great!!! somebody tried two of then together???? it will be serious rrrooooarrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
if anybody is making PCB's of this I'm interested, 6 components to base and 6 components to collector of Q2 & Q3 is a lot for perf. I don't have Freq Centrals soldering skills. This ckt has been the only ckt on my breadboard since last May. :icon_eek: From time to time I would try different transistor and/or diode combos for Q2 & Q3. But truthfully I haven't messed with it since I got my Blackstar HT5 at Christmas.
I built it on perf a couple months ago. I love it, and I don't like the muff sound at all! It gets into feedback territory easily. :icon_twisted:
Quote from: Scruffie on February 16, 2011, 04:11:14 PM
Here we go then, Unverified PCB, Will fit in a 1590B No Problem though, Onboard Pot as always, Mount on the back of the board.
(http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac182/Scruffie_Crow/OneKnobBigMuffSS.gif?t=1297890535)
(http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac182/Scruffie_Crow/OneKnobBigMuff-1.gif?t=1297890535)
Board Measures 50.80mm x 50.80mm
If someone wants to convert it to PDF, PM me and I'll e-mail you the Express PCB file, I don't have anywhere to host PDFs.
Anybody verified this PCB??? I've love to make PCB!!! It's the easiest way!!!!!
Quote from: GodSaveMetal on March 20, 2011, 10:12:02 PM
Anybody verified this PCB??? I've love to make PCB!!! It's the easiest way!!!!!
I haven't as I can't etch... and no one's mentioned verifying or unverifying it but if anyone wants to etch me one it'd be appreciated :icon_mrgreen:
I'll check the layout tommorow... I think I already did though and it looked fine.
Quote from: Scruffie on March 21, 2011, 02:22:14 AM
Quote from: GodSaveMetal on March 20, 2011, 10:12:02 PM
Anybody verified this PCB??? I've love to make PCB!!! It's the easiest way!!!!!
I haven't as I can't etch... and no one's mentioned verifying or unverifying it but if anyone wants to etch me one it'd be appreciated :icon_mrgreen:
I'll check the layout tommorow... I think I already did though and it looked fine.
OK I want to build it!!!!!!!!!!! :icon_wink:
Do it! Do it now! You won't regret it! Then start playing with it.
Quote from: GodSaveMetal on March 21, 2011, 09:15:01 AM
Quote from: Scruffie on March 21, 2011, 02:22:14 AM
Quote from: GodSaveMetal on March 20, 2011, 10:12:02 PM
Anybody verified this PCB??? I've love to make PCB!!! It's the easiest way!!!!!
I haven't as I can't etch... and no one's mentioned verifying or unverifying it but if anyone wants to etch me one it'd be appreciated :icon_mrgreen:
I'll check the layout tommorow... I think I already did though and it looked fine.
OK I want to build it!!!!!!!!!!! :icon_wink:
Hmm... i'm not so sure of it now, I might take another go at it in a day or two.
Here we go, think it should be alright now :)
(http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac182/Scruffie_Crow/OneKnobBigMuffSS-1.gif?t=1301330255)
(http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac182/Scruffie_Crow/OneKnobBigMuff-2.gif?t=1301330257)
50.80 x 50.80mm
I breadboarded this thing, and would like to add my name to the pile of people who think it's worth building.
That said, I did make a couple of tweaks for the version I am eventually going to build for myself...
1) I found that there was plenty of output at Q3, so I hung the volume pot (100k) from its collector, which cuts even more parts out while providing enough volume for the average Joe, although some exceptional Joes might complain...
2) I put a 10k linear pot in series with the base of Q3, where the stock Big Muff would have 7k5-10k and the schematic for this has a short. I think I saw this originally suggested by JC Maillet - it is definitely worth having twice as many controls, though! It essentially acts as a smoothness control, going between fat, roaring harmonics (low resistance) and a rounder, creamier sound reminiscent of classic Big Muffs (high resistance). It adds another degree of versatility (which I guess is the point of adding controls).
this thing is sick joe! love it!!!!
This thing sounds really good. Here's my perf. :D
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p315/naazrael/71bef2a5.jpg)
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p315/naazrael/93e4ff4a.jpg)
very nice perf work. aron and i both agree, a perf circuit can be built very quickly and work great! thanks for the post and the nice mention. zac is building four of them currently.
Is that PCB verified? This has always been on the list since I first saw the initial clips. Maybe I'll give it a go this weekend....
Quote from: joegagan on July 14, 2011, 10:06:03 PM
very nice perf work. aron and i both agree, a perf circuit can be built very quickly and work great! thanks for the post and the nice mention. zac is building four of them currently.
thanks! i'm no frequencycentral, but i do like working on perf. i've been doing vero and PCB lately, and was a refreshing change of pace. i had forgotten how painless perf can be if you can manage to remember where you are in the circuit, haha.
i think i can get it inside a 1590A if i put the volume knob on the side...hehe.
i had this layout done a while ago, but just now built it, and am kicking myself in the pants for not trying it out earlier, hehe.
did you and zac end up refining and revising the circuit any more?
actually, we only dabble with it a little. but i liked it so much in its early form i am going to stay with it. zac has some other plans, so pretty soon there will be the zac version i suppose. one of the 4 he is currently building for bill richardson, guitar tech extraordinaire and one of the world's experts on ampeg dan armstrong guitars ( http://www.danarmstrong.org/necks3.html ) , being housed in a russian EH box with a clipping option switch and highs cut switch to fill the 2 extra holes. as soon as we get it finished i will make new sound clips and document the mods.
on a related note, zac and i are partnering up on a little retail store inside a nice guitar and amp repair shop in our neighborhood however, not bill richardson's shop. brick and mortar, woo HOO!
(https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/174444_100001003105852_6343552_n.jpg)
3 of the 4 boards. all work by zac. he is getting good.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/joegagan/fuzz/DSCF9587.jpg?t=1310718297)
Quote from: joegagan on July 15, 2011, 04:26:43 AM
3 of the 4 boards. all work by zac. he is getting good.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/joegagan/fuzz/DSCF9587.jpg?t=1310718297)
That layout looks awfully familiar ::)
Is it verified then?
And he seems to have stuck a normal diode in the spot for polarity protection, unless it's a schottky.
a bit late: but nice sustain on that ...cool joe.. :icon_cool:
no tone control then?... :-\
anyone whacked a humbucker through it?...curious!.. :icon_cool:
humbuckers are what i use, sounds real good. :)
First off, Scruffie, thank you for the layout. I only intend to etch a few of these boards. I have double checked the layout and all seems to be spot on, but will have it verified tonight. I went with just a standard 1N4001 for the polarity protection diode, only because i didnt have a Zener handy. Scruffie have you built off of the board you posted?
I'm growing tired of doing such complicated circuits...decided I'm 'gonna build me a fuzz this weekend,' and I think this may be the one.
Of course I'll complicate it afterward. :)
Mostly wanted to say - I checked this out on LT spice, and out of the first transistor, it usually shows some 'ugly' clipping. With this configuration the waveform comes out pretty clean...I'll see what my ears tell me off the breadboard, though. :)
Quote from: Zzagar on July 15, 2011, 01:26:16 PM
First off, Scruffie, thank you for the layout. I only intend to etch a few of these boards. I have double checked the layout and all seems to be spot on, but will have it verified tonight. I went with just a standard 1N4001 for the polarity protection diode, only because i didnt have a Zener handy. Scruffie have you built off of the board you posted?
Quite alright, etch as many as you like, glad someone's enjoying it :) look like some nice boards ;) Slightly flattered one's going to a well known tech aswell :icon_mrgreen:
That doesn't look like a 1N4001 to me... must be a different kind of package, didn't know they came like that!
Nooo, I haven't, I don't have the means to etch, but I looked it over before and i'm pretty confident it's okay too.
Let us know how you get on!
Hm, has anyone measured collector voltages on theirs? Mine is around 3.6 for the clipping sections, 2.1-2.5 for the in/out buffers.
Should i bias them up to 4.5V? hm....
ha, one of zac's many hobbies. he collects weird and rare diodes in his spare time. i am serious.
prototype in an EH case. built for a friend, it is the same as the schem on page 1 of this thread, with the following exceptions:
pregain control, 100k pot ( 2k R between lug 1 and ground ) , replaces 39k input R.
2200 pf highs pass cap across lugs 2 and 3 of pregain pot, switchable. notice on video, switches in and out.
edit. anyone trying to etch off scruffie's, you need to connect Q2 and Q3 to each 15k power R with a jumper.
edit2 woohoo, this is my #200 video at my youtube channel. comin up on quartermillion channel views (!??)
Damn those blue boards are pretty!
And they make it so easy to read the component values too. I'm envious.
Quote from: joegagan on August 31, 2011, 03:40:47 PM
edit. anyone trying to etch off scruffie's, you need to connect Q2 and Q3 to each 15k power R with a jumper.
I think the technical term for this is bugger.
I'll re-do the layout soon... and add pads for your switchable mod.
It was one of my earlier layouts :icon_redface:
no prob, scruffie, it teaches us AGAIN to do a check and recheck of the layout before etching. but overall, a great, tight little layout. if you are going in to re-do, maybe remake the traces a wee bit wider for strength?
thank you for the layout!
Quote from: joegagan on September 01, 2011, 10:58:14 AM
no prob, scruffie, it teaches us AGAIN to do a check and recheck of the layout before etching. but overall, a great, tight little layout. if you are going in to re-do, maybe remake the traces a wee bit wider for strength?
thank you for the layout!
Can do thicker traces, i've improved at making layouts now anyway so it should be easier and better in general.
I'll try and get on that this evening.
Quote from: joegagan on August 31, 2011, 03:40:47 PM
prototype in an EH case. built for a friend, it is the same as the schem on page 1 of this thread, with the following exceptions:
pregain control, 100k pot ( 2k R between lug 1 and ground ) , replaces 39k input R.
2200 pf highs pass cap across lugs 2 and 3 of pregain pot, switchable. notice on video, switches in and out.
edit. anyone trying to etch off scruffie's, you need to connect Q2 and Q3 to each 15k power R with a jumper.
edit2 woohoo, this is my #200 video at my youtube channel. comin up on quartermillion channel views (!??)
why the decision to add a gain control to the stripped down muff? and why not just use the standard gain control?
I find this design interesting because I normally think the emitter shorted to ground is too gainy and can get muddy really easily. but here, I think it sounds great!
good question!
i had to fill two holes in the top of that EH case, haha. it was a mod for a friend, the mighty bill richardson, luthier extraordinaire. ( http://studioguitar.com/default.aspx ) i call it a mod but we replaced every single EH component with road-worthy quality parts and construction techniques. it is like a 55 chevy with modern corvette chassis, ha.
but the pregain really does work well, esp with the treble bleed cap. i think having the gain control in the position makes it more a part of the pickup network, i approach it a little like a fuzzface. my next experiment involves a dual gang 100k pot as follows:
*one gang as seen in above video, the other gang controls the 39k feeding q4. turn down hiss at the same time you turn down gain. will let you know how that goes.
BUT
we are still committed to the one knob version we first talked about in this thread. more on that later.