DIYstompboxes.com

 Hi!

In 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=78270.100) thread I have promissed to Scruffie (and Dave) that I'll try to design short-delay module, lighter compared to the one designed by Markus W. (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=46157.msg339100).

It took me ages but here it is finally:

(http://thmq.mysteria.cz/TZF3007/TZF3007_v1.0_schematic.gif)

TZF3007_v1.0_layout_1200DPI.png (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/TZF3007/TZF3007_v1.0_layout_1200DPI.png)
TZF3007_v1.0_PCB_1200DPI.png (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/TZF3007/TZF3007_v1.0_PCB_1200DPI.png)
TZF3007_v1.0_PCB_1200DPI_mirror.png (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/TZF3007/TZF3007_v1.0_PCB_1200DPI_mirror.png)
TZF3007_v1.0_schematic_1200DPI.png (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/TZF3007/TZF3007_v1.0_schematic_1200DPI.png)
TZF3007_v1.0_partlist.txt (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/TZF3007/TZF3007_v1.0_partlist.txt)

Notes:

• I assume that desired delay time would be somewhere between 1-10ms (~ f_s = 100kHz-1MHz for 1024-cell BBD)
  
• f_s range IMO allows to drop LPFs around delay-line
  
• Clock signal buffers are required at this range on the other hand (MN3007 is "overclocked" here)
  
• CD4047 is used above it's range here as well, so every given chip may behave differently - frequencies on the schemo are values I have got when I have build CD4047 clock experimentally (I have tried only one chip, CD4047BE by Texas Instruments, at V_CC=10V).  You may experiment with C5, R6 and POT_DELAY values to get your range.
  
• My clock ticked even when R6+POT_DELAY were set to "zero" (I've got these frequencies: 2MHz for C5=100pF, 2.3MHz for C5=68pF, 2.6MHz for C5=47pF, I_CC was around 20mA)
  
• All these frequencies were measured at +Q and -Q outs (~ sampling frequency)
  
• I don't believe to my oscilloscope at these frequencies, so I don't know actually how nice are signals at +Q and -Q outs
  
• Circuit won't have exact unity gain - it will be slightly sampling-frequency (~ delay time) dependant (see "Gi - f_cp" graph in MN3007 datasheet) - but same will apply for wet path of the flanger, so maybe it's a good thing for the proper TZF effect?
  
• Output expects decoupling capacitor at TZF return input
  
• Don't forget to solder jumpers under MN3007 socket first ;)
  
• If you don't plan to solder POT_DELAY directly to the PCB, you may cut PCB narrower and use inner pads instead (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/TZF3007/TZF3007_v1.0_PCB_cut.gif).
  
• Besides the clock snippet I did not build it, so it's not verified at this moment

 Please, feel free to comment.

Cheers, Tomas

That is awesome Thomeeque, cheers for taking the time on this one  :)... now I need to start collecting some parts to breadboard this...

Quote from: Scruffie on July 24, 2010, 02:43:22 PM
That is awesome Thomeeque, cheers for taking the time on this one  :)... now I need to start collecting some parts to breadboard this...

I have just updated initial post with link to partlist :) Good luck!

Note: for first shots you can use:
- for C1 and C4 anything from let's say 4u7 to 47u
- for C2 100n~1u
- RT1 10-100k
- POT_DELAY 25-100k
- C3, C6 - N/C
- R6, R7 - jumper

Thanks Tomas!
Who will be the first one to try this?  ;D ;)

I should say who else...

edit: Just a thought. Might want to put a bit of LPF on the output side of this. The LFO sweeps the delay through a wide range of the f's one would set the TZF board to. Heterodyning gives you the sum (shouldn't be a problem) and the difference of the 2 clocks when they "cross paths". What will happen when (not if) the TZF board is set at, let's say, 1MHz and the LFO sweeps the delay through the ~995KHz range?
1MHz - 995kHz = 5kHz = audible range = heterodyning (?)
Or maybe not.
Perhaps someone w/more TZF experience could chime in here?
Stephen? Mark?
Thanks!

Puretube had something to say about prevention of Heterodyning - you first have a "nice hot cup of tea" and then do a very very careful layout :icon_biggrin:. His post is on here somewhere, but I should think keep the clock lines well separated by ground strips - perhaps even separate boards.

Nice work!

Quote from: oldschoolanalog on July 24, 2010, 03:22:41 PM
Just a thought. Might want to put a bit of LPF on the output side of this. The LFO sweeps the delay through a wide range of the f's one would set the TZF board to. Heterodyning gives you the sum (shouldn't be a problem) and the difference of the 2 clocks when they "cross paths". What will happen when (not if) the TZF board is set at, let's say, 1MHz and the LFO sweeps the delay through the ~995KHz range?
1MHz - 995kHz = 5kHz = audible range = heterodyning (?)
Or maybe not.

Oh, probably yes :( It just did not cross my mind. I should have read Markus's thread properly first, it's discussed there, even puretube's terrifying post (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=25380.msg166584#msg166584) is linked there.

Unfortunately it makes perfect sense so we probably should not cheat anymore and put proper LPFs where they belong. Especially when the wet path is cheating already..

I'll try to do it ASAP.

Anyway, you can still try to build it as it is now (it won't be so cute with two additional LPFs anymore) - it still may work by some miracle and in the worst case you will end up with nice little MN3007 tester ;)

T.

Quote from: Thomeeque on July 26, 2010, 05:20:18 AM
...even puretube's terrifying post (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=25380.msg166584#msg166584) is linked there.

Thanks for finding that. Not so much terrifying, but cautionary and enlightening. Good advice from somebody who has done "a bit" of designing in his time. :icon_biggrin:

Quote...proper LPFs where they belong.

It seems proper placement of the LPF's allows for much "lighter" filtering. Take care of the potential problem at the potential source of it. Good stuff.

QuoteEspecially when the wet path is cheating already..

Not so much cheating. It just "is what it is". (cheating? :icon_lol:)

QuoteI'll try to do it ASAP. Anyway, you can still try to build it as it is now (it won't be so cute with two additional LPFs anymore) - it still may work by some miracle...

I have no doubt it will work. I'll wait until all the elements are on one board. With a ground plane and separate rails for the clock, BBD & audio (LPF's); not to mention keeping components close, yet properly separated; a well designed TZF board is no small undertaking. Take your time on this one. "The people appreciate your efforts."

Quote...and in the worst case you will end up with nice little MN3007 tester ;)

Already have one of those. Its called a DOD FX75B flanger. Its tested numerous MN3006/7/9's in its time and also does a really nice chorus. It's well worth the $20US paid.
Thanks again.
All the Best!

What would really be great is an A/DA or Mistress complete with de-bugged TZF on the same PCB.  Of course, that might be asking for trouble.... but perhaps possible with careful layout.

I might build up one of the TZF circuits and try it out with my A/DA clone.  It should be fine at 15V, correct?

OK, v1.1:

(http://thmq.mysteria.cz/TZF3007/v1_1/TZF3007_v1.1_Schematic.gif)

TZF3007_v1.1_Schematic_1200DPI.png (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/TZF3007/v1_1/TZF3007_v1.1_Schematic_1200DPI.png)
TZF3007_v1.1_PCB_1200DPI.png (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/TZF3007/v1_1/TZF3007_v1.1_PCB_1200DPI.png)
TZF3007_v1.1_PCB_mirror_1200DPI.png (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/TZF3007/v1_1/TZF3007_v1.1_PCB_mirror_1200DPI.png)
TZF3007_v1.1_Layout-Parts_1200DPI.png (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/TZF3007/v1_1/TZF3007_v1.1_Layout-Parts_1200DPI.png)
TZF3007_v1.1_Layout-Values_1200DPI.png (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/TZF3007/v1_1/TZF3007_v1.1_Layout-Values_1200DPI.png)
TZF3007_v1.1_Layout-Jumpers.png (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/TZF3007/v1_1/TZF3007_v1.1_Layout-Jumpers.png)
TZF3007_v1.1_Partlist.txt (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/TZF3007/v1_1/TZF3007_v1.1_Partlist.txt)

(http://thmq.mysteria.cz/TZF3007/v1_1/TZF3007_v1.1_LTC.gif)

TZF3007_v1.1.asc (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/TZF3007/v1_1/TZF3007_v1.1.asc)

Due to added LPFs there will be small insertion loss (about -1.3dB ~ 0.86), you may ignore it or try to compensate it externally (e.g. by lower value of R25=13k resistor in RETURN path in case of EM9V (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/markusw/9VMistress.jpg) /difference value resistor should be then used for TZF bypass/).

Feel free to ask and/or comment, but don't expect big effort from my side anytime soon, I need a break :icon_eek:

:icon_mrgreen: T.

Btw. you may try to start with lighter filtering (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/TZF3007/v1_1/TZF3007_v1.1_LTC_light.gif) by not installing C4 and C7 (for "calmer" phase mainly).

Wow, that was fast!
Quick Q. Should there be a cap between the BBD output and the post BBD LPF?
Thanks for the awesome effort. :icon_cool:

Quote from: oldschoolanalog on July 28, 2010, 08:18:40 PM
Wow, that was fast!
Quick Q. Should there be a cap between the BBD output and the post BBD LPF?

Thanks Dave, I believe it's OK as it is. Q1 is this way DC biased by BBD output (Q1 actually still forms basically the same emitter-follower buffer as in v1.0 or as in my retrofit (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=78270.0), it's just now "surrounded" by filtering network :))

Quote from: oldschoolanalog on July 28, 2010, 08:18:40 PM
Thanks for the awesome effort. :icon_cool:

You're welcome :)

T.

Quote from: 12Bass on July 26, 2010, 12:36:58 PM
What would really be great is an A/DA or Mistress complete with de-bugged TZF on the same PCB.  Of course, that might be asking for trouble.... but perhaps possible with careful layout.

I might build up one of the TZF circuits and try it out with my A/DA clone.  It should be fine at 15V, correct?

Yes, go ahead. Just note that you need to decouple TZF3007 output by capacitor (cca 220nF) for A/DA. Insertion loss may be simply compensated by adjusting R41 (http://moosapotamus.net/ADAflangerSCHmn3007.GIF) value (maybe use 100k trimmer temporarily there to find the right value).

Good luck, T.

 TZF3207 v1.0 (V_CC = 10V max.) - this one I have probably promissed to Scruffie ;)

(http://thmq.mysteria.cz/TZF3207/TZF3207_v1.0_Schematic.gif)

TZF3207_v1.0_Schematic_1200DPI.png (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/TZF3207/TZF3207_v1.0_Schematic_1200DPI.png)
TZF3207_v1.0_PCB_1200DPI.png (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/TZF3207/TZF3207_v1.0_PCB_1200DPI.png)
TZF3207_v1.0_PCB_mirror_1200DPI.png (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/TZF3207/TZF3207_v1.0_PCB_mirror_1200DPI.png)
TZF3207_v1.0_Layout-Parts_1200DPI.png (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/TZF3207/TZF3207_v1.0_Layout-Parts_1200DPI.png)
TZF3207_v1.0_Layout-Values_1200DPI.png (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/TZF3207/TZF3207_v1.0_Layout-Values_1200DPI.png)
TZF3207_v1.0_Layout-Jumpers_1200DPI.png (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/TZF3207/TZF3207_v1.0_Layout-Jumpers_1200DPI.png)
TZF3207_v1.0_Partlist.txt (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/TZF3207/TZF3207_v1.0_Partlist.txt)

T.

Thanks so much.  Speaking as a public servant, I would describe this as a true public service!  As a standalone module there are all sorts of other uses, too.  For example, a person could use this to stagger the stereo outputs of a sum/difference device, whether chorus, phaser, or flanger, so that the two signals do not cancel.  Also something you can use to adjust ear arrival times of PA speakers (within limits, of course).

Quote from: Mark Hammer on July 30, 2010, 08:51:59 AM
Thanks so much.  Speaking as a public servant, I would describe this as a true public service!

Should I arrange pay-pal account for donations? :icon_mrgreen:

Thanks for kind words, Mark! :) T.

..and for extension of your post (about other possibilities), interesting!

You're most welcome.

Think about how many producers and engineers will talk about  how they use multiple amps and cabs to "thicken up" the sound of a recorded guitar.  Now, a big part of that will be because all those amps and cabs have different resonances that show up at different points, post-strum.  But it will also be the case that the sound produced by all those amps, mic'd up separately, will not be flawlessly or perfectly aligned in time.  The difference may be a fraction of a millisecond, or two, and, HEY wait a second!

Yup, this makes an excellent addition to a splitter so that two amps, or even two distortion pedals, can be fed with signals that are staggered juuuuuuuust ever so slightly, to add some richness.  You won't hear it as chorus or flanging, because nothing is being swept, and you certainly won't hear it as delay, because it is way too short.  But you just might hear it as a tonal thickening or simply difference in character, arising from the re-alignment or misalignment of harmonics.

Quote from: Mark Hammer on July 30, 2010, 08:51:59 AM
...I would describe this as a true public service!

Yes Tomas, you truly have earned your Halo this time! ;D

Quote from: Thomeeque on July 30, 2010, 09:04:18 AM
Should I arrange pay-pal account for donations? :icon_mrgreen:

Uh, lets not get too crazy here.  :icon_lol:
I still owe you for the switches, come to think of it.

BTW; this circuit also can also be used as a nice & ez comb filter. Perhaps add a regen loop for that use. Put the delay pot on a pedal. Whatever...

Quote from: oldschoolanalog on July 30, 2010, 11:57:08 AMBTW; this circuit also can also be used as a nice & ez comb filter. Perhaps add a regen loop for that use. Put the delay pot on a pedal. Whatever...

Or build two, and have TZF controlled by a pedal....   :o

Oh man, how could world ever exist without my modules? :icon_eek:

Please, don't answer :icon_mrgreen: T.

Quote from: oldschoolanalog on July 30, 2010, 11:57:08 AM
I still owe you for the switches, come to think of it.

I'm glad you still remember :) I remember it too (don't worry :icon_twisted:), but so far I have not found that *special* part I will ask you for yet :icon_rolleyes: But that day will come :) Thanks, T.

Just wondering if anyone's gotten round to attempting this yet? I should be getting an Electric Mistress PCB soon to populate and try it out with but I wondered due to this thread http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=86836.0 and my suggestion of the TZF Project on One Board if it had been confirmed?

Can anyone give me a hand with how to size this for printing? A PDF would be nice...  :D
http://thmq.mysteria.cz/TZF3007/v1_1/TZF3007_v1.1_PCB_1200DPI.png (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/TZF3007/v1_1/TZF3007_v1.1_PCB_1200DPI.png)

Quote from: Scruffie on September 09, 2010, 11:49:43 AM
Can anyone give me a hand with how to size this for printing?

All those pngs know their physical size plus you know DPI from the filename, but..

Quote from: Scruffie on September 09, 2010, 11:49:43 AM
A PDF would be nice...  :D

..I agree ;)

TZF3007_v1.1_Build_Instructions.pdf (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/TZF3007/v1_1/TZF3007_v1.1_Build_Instructions.pdf)
TZF3207_v1.0_Build_Instructions.pdf (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/TZF3207/TZF3207_v1.0_Build_Instructions.pdf)

T.

Ahh sorry, i'm new to this.

Cheers for the PDFs though!  ;)

So, who's gonna' try this first?
Eh?

Quote from: oldschoolanalog on September 09, 2010, 01:24:08 PM
So, who's gonna' try this first?
Eh?

I'm working on it... might take quite a while though  :icon_frown:

Quote from: oldschoolanalog on September 09, 2010, 01:24:08 PM
So, who's gonna' try this first?
Eh?

(http://councilofthesword.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/uncle-sam-heidi-klum-lookalike-jpeg.jpg)

:icon_mrgreen: T.

Dude!
Its gonna' take more than "that" to get me off my keyster. :icon_lol:
Or maybe not. Considering I'm the only one who has any 3007's.  :P
Guess it's time to get busy...
Again.
I'll keep y'all posted.

West End Girls...

Quote from: oldschoolanalog on September 09, 2010, 09:23:20 PM
Dude!
Its gonna' take more than "that" to get me off my keyster. :icon_lol:
Or maybe not. Considering I'm the only one who has any 3007's.  :P
Guess it's time to get busy...
Again.
I'll keep y'all posted.

West End Girls...

I have the 3007s, just no money (or already built up PCB) for the rest of the parts!  :icon_mrgreen:

I'll be able to buy a MN3007 on my regular parts supplier but I'm still too confused regarding this EM build. The original one wasn't easy but this new one with all this mods it makes me dizzy. Of course that happens because I'm a freshman...

Okay, now someone needs to design a small daughterboard for "theta processing".  This would involve 4 or more fixed all-pass stages.  I have a perf version using a quad op-amp, but I suppose some folks would like a PCB.  You can read more about it here: http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=77987.0

More info about theta processing here. (http://www.jhaible.de/jh_storm_tide_flanger.html)
Sorry, just realized this is already linked to above. :icon_redface:
Lack of coffee is a sad thing...

anyone successfully built this? How does it work? Does it only delay the input signal or it mixes with dry signal?
Tnx

please forgive this tangent for Thomeeque...I would pm or email you if I could find an address:  

a) You seem to have done the most work on the original and 9V EM.   One of your packages called "EM Enhancer v0.1A" is confusing and I probably don't understand the context.  What's it for and why two inverters?

b) I've got a functioning 18V version and I don't find the volume drop too bad, but I've been trying to find a blend mod for it.  My inability to find something tells me that maybe it's not possible without adding I/O buffering.  Dunno?

c) I figured out that TZF means "through-zero-flanger," but I don't know the term comes from and whether the designs in this thread are  EM mods, or a different design altogether?

Quote from: jaysg on February 09, 2011, 02:35:07 PM
please forgive this tangent for Thomeeque...I would pm or email you if I could find an address:  

a) You seem to have done the most work on the original and 9V EM.   One of your packages called "EM Enhancer v0.1A" (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/diystompboxes.com/Thmqs_EM_Enhancer.gif) is confusing and I probably don't understand the context.  What's it for and why two inverters?

b) I've got a functioning 18V version and I don't find the volume drop too bad, but I've been trying to find a blend mod for it.  My inability to find something tells me that maybe it's not possible without adding I/O buffering.  Dunno?

c) I figured out that TZF means "through-zero-flanger," but I don't know the term comes from and whether the designs in this thread are  EM mods, or a different design altogether?

a) My "EM Enhancer v0.1A" (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=89309.msg759027#msg759027) was just a quick draft completing idea from previous post:

Quote from: Thomeeque on January 27, 2011, 09:21:49 AM
If you plan to keep it, add LED, unity gain mod and e.g. BBD output signal inverter (to make some use of 2nd half of unity gain opamp) for more instant fun (adds this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXxmixk46Xo&t=3m07s) sound) :) Other interesting options are clock range switch, feedback capacitor switch..

Top "inverter" represents unity gain mod with volume control (since original 9V EM inverts signal, using inverting amplifier at it's output makes IMO good sense).

Bottom inverter allows to invert "wet" (BBD) signal, which gives new range of sounds (more instant fun  ;))

b) This (http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/9172/18vmistressschmhr5.gif) 18V version? What exactly should blend mod do?

c) About TZF don't hesitate to ask Google, you'll find lot of threads, soundsamples etc. My TZF module was primarily designed for EM, but you can use it in other circuits as well - you just need to know that it requires buffered input signal and decoupling output capacitor to filter out DC voltage present at it's output.

T.

Quote from: Thomeeque on February 10, 2011, 05:10:33 PMThis[/url] 18V version? What exactly should blend mod do?

Thank you for the explanation.  Yes, I have the early 18V version, pcb 5200-1A.  

The EM is not subtle and it would be nice to be able to dial the balance to: more uneffected + less flanged = Unity, without using an external mixer.  The junction of the 13K, 10K, and 470ohm looks like a mix point.  I don't understand the Color and Trim pots at all, so, I'm basically guessing that the 13K is 'feed forward,' not feedback and the mix is about 50|50.

Quote from: jaysg on February 10, 2011, 07:08:49 PM
The EM is not subtle and it would be nice to be able to dial the balance to: more uneffected + less flanged = Unity, without using an external mixer.  The junction of the 13K, 10K, and 470ohm looks like a mix point.  I don't understand the Color and Trim pots at all, so, I'm basically guessing that the 13K is 'feed forward,' not feedback and the mix is about 50|50.

OK, I see now.

The junction of the 13K, 10K, and 470ohm looks like a mix point. - yes, it is - first you can try to replace 13k + 10k divider by 22~25k linear pot and play with it. This way you can try full possible range, find reasonable limits and then replace it by combination of resistors and pot (e.g. 8k2 - B10k - 4k7).

There is one potential problem, 470R+47n branch - this branch forms (with "mix" resistors) passive de-emphasis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De-emphasis) filter. Changing mix resistor values will detune this filter (bigger value will lead to less highs than on input, smaller value to more highs than on input) - you may or may not find it to be a problem during you experiments with blend pot.

Edit: There is another potential problem, overall volume may change with blend pot setting - you may or may not find it to be a problem during you experiments with blend pot as well.

One possible way around both of these problems would by adding (toggle) switch switching between two (or more) properly tuned fixed mixers with fixed ratios.

I don't understand the Color and Trim pots at all, so, I'm basically guessing that the 13K is 'feed forward,' not feedback and the mix is about 50|50. - yes.

T.

hi...
I'm just finishing this project, doing the Electric M. and the TZF module at the same time...I think (I hope) it will be ready for the first tests by tomorrow...
I just have a little doubt on how wiring the tzf board with the main flanger...I know it should be simple but I prefer to ask for help before I do something wrong.... :icon_redface:

Thank you !

Quote from: Pierre on September 04, 2011, 01:02:19 PM
hi...
I'm just finishing this project, doing the Electric M. and the TZF module at the same time...I think (I hope) it will be ready for the first tests by tomorrow...
I just have a little doubt on how wiring the tzf board with the main flanger...I know it should be simple but I prefer to ask for help before I do something wrong.... :icon_redface:

Thank you !

See Markus's EM schematic (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=46157.msg339100) and locate pads SEND and RETURN. TZF3x07's IN connects with SEND, OUT with RETURN. You may want to use DPDT toggle wired as a true-bypass switch for this module.

What EM and what TZF module are you building exactly?

T.

---

Btw. T_DELAY range on all pictures here is wrong, correct range is 0.25ms ~ 4.5ms (T_DELAY = 1024/(2*f_CP))

---

I'm building this TZF
http://thmq.mysteria.cz/TZF3007/v1_1/TZF3007_v1.1_Build_Instructions.pdf (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/TZF3007/v1_1/TZF3007_v1.1_Build_Instructions.pdf)

...and this EM :
http://www.4shared.com/document/xNi5MG7d/Mistress_MN3007_SendRet.html (http://www.4shared.com/document/xNi5MG7d/Mistress_MN3007_SendRet.html)

Quote
Btw. TDELAY range on all pictures here is wrong, correct range is 0.25ms ~ 4.5ms (TDELAY = 1024/(2*fCP))

...agh ! I don't undesrtand...

Quote from: Pierre on September 04, 2011, 04:59:36 PM

Quote
Btw. TDELAY range on all pictures here is wrong, correct range is 0.25ms ~ 4.5ms (TDELAY = 1024/(2*fCP))

...agh ! I don't undesrtand...

Sorry, I have just findout that all pictures in this thread contain wrong information, so I have used reply to your questions as the "host" for this correction note (meant for everybody), it was probably not the best idea ::) T.

Quote from: 12Bass on July 30, 2010, 12:28:28 PM

Quote from: oldschoolanalog on July 30, 2010, 11:57:08 AMBTW; this circuit also can also be used as a nice & ez comb filter. Perhaps add a regen loop for that use. Put the delay pot on a pedal. Whatever...

Or build two, and have TZF controlled by a pedal....   :o

Hmmm.... Would that work? I'm tempted to try this sometime in the near future. Wondering which version of the board would be the better choice? I have both MN3007s and MN3207s hanging around here. Would I need to have a splitter of some sort in front of them and a mixer afterwards, or could the two boards simply be be wired directly to the input/output jacks?

Sorry for resurrecting this older thread, but I'm curious as to whether anyone ever tried implementing this board?  I'm in the process now of trying it with Tomas' EM3007 board (which btw sounds awesome)- I've got it wired in with a dpdt and there is a noticeable volume drop when the daughterboard is engaged, and also the effect is rather subtle.  I can hear the delay time changing when I turn the knob of the daughterboard, but the overall effect doesn't seem very present.  I remember Tomas mentioning that altering the value of the resistor in the return path of the dry signal (R25 in Markus' 9v EM schematic, R16 in Tomas' schematic and board) might help with "insertion loss".  In Markus' schem, R25 is 13k, while in Tomas' schem the value of this resistor is 10k.  In the opinion of the esteemed experts here, would lowering the value even more, to say 8k2 or even 7k5, help the volume drop in my case? 

Thanks in advance for any assistance!

Quote from: jdub on October 28, 2013, 01:51:57 PM
Sorry for resurrecting this older thread, but I'm curious as to whether anyone ever tried implementing this board?  I'm in the process now of trying it with Tomas' EM3007 board (which btw sounds awesome)- I've got it wired in with a dpdt and there is a noticeable volume drop when the daughterboard is engaged, and also the effect is rather subtle.  I can hear the delay time changing when I turn the knob of the daughterboard, but the overall effect doesn't seem very present.  I remember Tomas mentioning that altering the value of the resistor in the return path of the dry signal (R25 in Markus' 9v EM schematic, R16 in Tomas' schematic and board) might help with "insertion loss".  In Markus' schem, R25 is 13k, while in Tomas' schem the value of this resistor is 10k.  In the opinion of the esteemed experts here, would lowering the value even more, to say 8k2 or even 7k5, help the volume drop in my case? 

Thanks in advance for any assistance!

Why don't you connect up a 4k7 fixed resistor in series with a 4k7 linear pot and try?

I was planning on doing just that, just wanted to make sure I was headin' in the right direction before I start unsoldering stuff... ;)

Well, I feel foolish  :-[ ...turns out that the problem was that the 2N3904 needs to be rotated 180 degrees; as currently shown in the module layout, Vcc is connected to the emitter and output is taken from the collector, and things should be vice versa.  This is clear from the schematic but I simply went by the layout and didn't check against the schem.  Volume is now good, although I need to tweak a bit to get the correct delay time from the module; effect is still not terribly strong.

So, anyone trying this, be aware that there is apparently an error on the layout.  Nonetheless, thanks to Tomas for his work in the first place!

I keep saying this.  You'd think that with only 3 pins, there would only be 9 different pinouts, but you'd be wrong.  There are at least 537 different TO-92 pinouts, some of them brought here by space aliens, and intended to stymie our technological progress so that they can continue to dominate us and use us for both food and crowd-scene extras in the humorous commercial they film here for consumption (along with man-meat) back home.

Quote from: Mark Hammer on November 09, 2013, 10:29:10 AM
I keep saying this.  You'd think that with only 3 pins, there would only be 9 different pinouts, but you'd be wrong.  There are at least 537 different TO-92 pinouts, some of them brought here by space aliens, and intended to stymie our technological progress so that they can continue to dominate us and use us for both food and crowd-scene extras in the humorous commercial they film here for consumption (along with man-meat) back home.

:icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin:

You seem to know an awful lot about these aliens, Mark...hmmm... ;D

I had made a TZF flanger a while back by putting a small clone chorus in the send/return loop of the electric mistress EM3007 project circuit.
This allowed the through zero effect to be either a stationary point (with the chorus LFO off), or modulating along with the flanger LFO.

I have also finishing up a TZF with this project board along with the EM3007 project. There are two very important factors which need to be addresses if you want
to achieve the most dramatic through zero effect.

1. Both delayed signals must be out-of phase from each other. This project has an emitter-follower output which gives no phase inversion with respect to the flangers modulated delay line. In order to remedy this I had removed the components the signal is going through between the output of the MN3007 and the emitter of the output transistor. I had then reworked the component values and placement to change the output path to travel through a booster with the output on the collector side (I used an LPB1 circuit in this case). This allowed the signal to be out of phase from the other delay line and boosted enough so it could be balanced out to cancel the most signal (see point 2). (In this project there are 2 capacitors from the NPN collector to ground which must also be removed or else the signal will be shunted to ground).

2.Both signals should be the same amplitude (volume) to cancel out the most. Adding a 50k trimmer to the output to balance out the signal in filter matrix mode at the delay time that lowers the signal the most is important.

Wasn't aware of this...would you be willing to share your component values? Did you use the tzf board or an external board for the booster?  Thanks!

I used the TZF board from this thread. As I mentioned in my previous post I removed the output buffer/low pass filter circuitry and replaced it with an LPB1 booster (schematic can be easily found). This required some extra holes to be drilled to accommodate the biasing of the NPN transistor in that setup, though it was all able to be implemented fairly easily.

Cool, thanks...that's what it sounded like but wanted to be sure.  Sounds easy enough  :)

Hey Cortez- so I worked up the LPB-1 for the tzf path and I'm getting distortion on the output.  Did you change the gain factor of the LPB when you did yours?  Did you keep the volume pot/trim at the end of the LPB or just take full output?  Thx

I kept the volume pot after the LPB and had it as a trimpot. It wont need much volume to reach unity with the other delay line, which is what you want. So the trim acts as a mix for the two signals.
If you did not have the volume pot after the boost, the signal would be way too loud to allow the two to cancel each other out properly.

Righto- thanks.   ;)