Does any one have one of these pedals?
http://www.schumannelectronics.com/index.html
Any info or schematics for any of them?
Anyone interested in getting one to tear apart?
Hi
these look nice. But are they revolutionary? maybe not
e.g.
QuoteThe LION X has a Lion circuit with two outputs. This gives you the ability to put distortion in one output and clean in the other output -- or split the signal and mix it.
One output has a vintage analog-synth style adjustable voltage control bandpass filter. The other output has an adjustable lowpass filter.
Any of the senior members of the forum would be able to whip a design like that together in an hour. Building it would take a few hours.
Having said that - I wish them the very best of luck. Diversity and options are what it is all about. Most people out there wouldn't have the time, design skills or assembly skills to put these things together, so they are offering a great service to many.
just my 2c....
You can make a PLL-alike by starting with the E&MM "Harmony Generator":
http://web.archive.org/web/20080315204022/http://hammer.ampage.org/files/EMMHarmoGen.PDF (this is a direct link to a PDF)
If you duplicate the CMOS switch at the bottom of the schem and send the up octaves to this, and send only the down octaves to the first switch, you can basically have a PLL.
The 2 face fuzz thing is probably a phase splitter with a separate fuzz face on each side of the wave, then recombined.
QuoteSlade
President & CEO
Schumann Electronics
:icon_eek:
hahaha...I don't think that's "our" slade
:)
Quote from: phector2004 on August 23, 2010, 11:40:51 PM
QuoteSlade
President & CEO
Schumann Electronics
:icon_eek:
Slade is a really busy guy. Every day he commutes from Chile to Brooklyn to take care of Schumann biz, then he flies back to Chile to etch and build 10 of his own pedals. Then he sleeps for 12 minutes and starts over again.
...then again, Schumann has been "about to go back into business" for almost a year now, so I guess he's not that on top of things.
Oooph!
(http://bassfuzz.com/wp-content/gallery/Schumann%20Two%20Face%20Fuzz/Schumann%20Two%20Face%20Fuzz%2004.jpg?1403289573)
(http://bassfuzz.com/wp-content/gallery/Schumann%20Two%20Face%20Fuzz/Schumann%20Two%20Face%20Fuzz%2009.jpg?696500818)
There was a subgenre of boutique manufacturers that basically collapsed from what I call Radioheaditis. Radiohead were repping boutique pedals and the demand for said pedals among their fans or would be alternative rockers surged. Lovetone, case in point: was it long after their Radiohead endorsement that they essentially shut down? Schumann have "legendary alt rock status" from what I know of, yet, it seems to correlate with relative unavailability of the goods.
TOTAL CONJECTURE on my part, but IIRC Schumann pedals were among those repped by some alt rock bands (incl Radiohead unless I am misremembering) of the early 00's which was later followed by "I must have that boutique pedal because my favorite band uses that"
Strategy
Someone on the "other forum" had one of these and took some gut shots. It looked like a mess inside.
messy = mojo?
Quote from: soggybag on August 24, 2010, 12:47:44 AM
Someone on the "other forum" had one of these and took some gut shots. It looked like a mess inside.
I actually, half-jokingly, postulated that he made them so obscenely messy inside as "the goop of the new millenium". Then I read in one of their press releases (in which they call out Snazzy FX for supposedly ripping off the PLL by lying to Schumann) that, according to Schumann, he had built his pedals with "booby traps" to prevent cloners.
It's interesting to me, because many of the same spatial reasoning skills involved in laying out a nice front panel graphic could be applied to laying out the inside of a pedal.
I think it includes previously built and scrapped experiments and a load of extra wires leading nowhere, with the gooped bit hiding the fuzz circuit
UNLESS
the small perfs are the fuzz circuits and the big gooped thing is a red herring. In that case, I would have added a padlock and glued a keypad into the goop to get them frantically trying to reveal its secret
Does anyone know what the lamps are? What are the light covers?
I don't think they're lamps, just regular old LEDs with colored lens covers.
Lots of LED lenses at Mouser starting around page 160:
http://www.mouser.com/Catalog/catalogusd/642/160.Pdf
I bet you could find something similar there.
Thank you sir,
I will get the book out and take a look. I usually use those black snap in holders. These look nice. Maybe I will be able to find a part number.
The 2 face fuzz thing is probably a phase splitter with a separate fuzz face on each side of the wave, then recombined.
[/quote]
Sounds interesting. Anybody want to give it a go using a +9v/-9v charge pump supply?
Yeah, here's what I'd do:
input>buffer------>precision rectifier with diodes oriented forwards----->fuzz face----->buffer-
| |
--->precision rectifier with diodes oriented backwards--->fuzz face----->buffer----->output
Hmm, it's just impossible to do ascii diagrams here no matter what I try. Oh well, I think you can see the general idea. I'm not sure the point of the bipolar supply.
Quote from: Taylor on August 24, 2010, 05:10:19 AM
I'm not sure the point of the bipolar supply.
Me either but I found this from john schumann's site.
Quote:
The LION X has a Lion circuit with two outputs. This gives you the ability to put distortion in one output and clean in the other output -- or split the signal and mix it.
One output has a vintage analog-synth style adjustable voltage control bandpass filter. The other output has an adjustable lowpass filter.
The LION X uses a +12 -12 bipolar power supply. End quote
It is for the Lion X. I am not sure of the Fuzz power situation. I figured it was something like a negative supply for the negative swing and positive for postive.
Here are more pics of his work I found trolling.
(http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab86/pigyboy_2009/Picture2.png)
(http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab86/pigyboy_2009/Picture3.png)
(http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab86/pigyboy_2009/Picture4.png)
(http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab86/pigyboy_2009/Picture7.png)
(http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab86/pigyboy_2009/Picture6.png)
One of the PLL
(http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab86/pigyboy_2009/Picture8.png)
$2K on Ebay...Any takers?
i just don't understand why/how they look so great on the outside and like garbage on the inside... ???
What a big lesson in paranoia ???
It is obvious there are a bunch of wires in there for no reason and to confuse. I would hope that no one would build a commercial pedal like that inside.
Quote from: caress on August 24, 2010, 08:32:38 AM
i just don't understand why/how they look so great on the outside and like garbage on the inside... ???
It doesn't really matter as long as it works properly. Oddly enough, a mess like that can often be relatively trouble free compared to something where every wire is perfect but a bunch of them are running in parallel, very close to eachother. My first pedals often looked like that (a mess), but they usually all worked without squealing. YMMV.
Quote from: Paul Marossy on August 24, 2010, 10:00:17 AM
Quote from: caress on August 24, 2010, 08:32:38 AM
i just don't understand why/how they look so great on the outside and like garbage on the inside... ???
It doesn't really matter as long as it works properly. Oddly enough, a mess like that can often be relatively trouble free compared to something where every wire is perfect but a bunch of them are running in parallel, very close to eachother. My first pedals often looked like that (a mess), but they usually all worked without squealing. YMMV.
I agree, but I don't envy the repair guy who has one of these come in. :o
As well as having sloppy wiring, they require bipolar supplies, thay have way too much electrical tape and other easily broken insulators, and a lot of the soldering seems sloppy.
The lion x seems to have a 4049UBE and an LF353 on the main board plus at least two other boards and other parts soldered to the jacks, switches, etc. It wouldn't be hard just to take the 4049 distortion of your choice and then just add the filtering and clean blending.
There is a quote on another forum of a guy who bought a used Schumann pedal and contacted John Schumann to repair it and mod another pedal. They agreed to $200 up front and the guy never saw his money or pedals again. Then there are rumors of new gear to be offered too. It would be great to really find out what is in one and how much of it is b.s. and what is real. I heard he basically was shoving synth circuits into boxes for guitar players.
The idea of building "booby trap" circuits into a pedal has to be the dumbest thing I have seen yet. What a waste of time and energy. No wonder his business is not doing so well. As pointed out earlier repairs must be nightmare. Not mention assembly.
That said I really dig the knobs. The style of the boxes have a cool military retro look. The knobs back this up.
Hi,
This wiring technique is acceptable but it needs a lot of "rationalization" of the wire routing for maintenance purposes... Or maybe it's a "wiring trap", as some suggest, but I would be somewhat surprised... I saw something similar on some MG pedals that I had in hands (Sexy Drive, Thé Drive), which works very well but are built like an "englued château de cartes", so are painful to service... Probably like the innards of the Schumann's releases !
A+!
Seriously, do NOT want!
I would be vexxed if i got a pedal wired like that if it was free, but if i paid for it i would be seriously unhappy.
Quote from: Paul Marossy on August 24, 2010, 10:00:17 AM
Quote from: caress on August 24, 2010, 08:32:38 AM
i just don't understand why/how they look so great on the outside and like garbage on the inside... ???
It doesn't really matter as long as it works properly. Oddly enough, a mess like that can often be relatively trouble free compared to something where every wire is perfect but a bunch of them are running in parallel, very close to eachother. My first pedals often looked like that (a mess), but they usually all worked without squealing. YMMV.
i disagree. it's not terribly difficult to lay something out halfway decently... especially when it seems there was obviously time spent on the enclosure layout, graphics, etc.
it would suck to service that, even for the builder.
Quote from: Strategy on August 24, 2010, 12:05:25 AM
hahaha...I don't think that's "our" slade
:)
Quote from: phector2004 on August 23, 2010, 11:40:51 PM
QuoteSlade
President & CEO
Schumann Electronics
:icon_eek:
You mean the guy who built this?
(http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/7330/sn853650.jpg)
Or this?
(http://bassfuzz.com/wp-content/gallery/Schumann%20Two%20Face%20Fuzz/Schumann%20Two%20Face%20Fuzz%2004.jpg?1403289573)
Hi
QuoteThe 2 face fuzz thing is probably a phase splitter with a separate fuzz face on each side of the wave, then recombined.
There are already simple fuzzes that do this. From memory, the Fuzzrite is a phase (+different gain?) blender. The old ETI fuzz also did phase blending (in a FF type circuit?). I messed with these things for a while and found that you could get fantastic "devil's horns" and other waveforms on the oscilloscope. Looked fantastic. Sounded fairly poor because the harmonics are sharp/nasty and unmusical. I'd say the Fuzzrite (with hFEs=150 to 200) is a good starting place for people interested in the phased "edgy fuzz" type of sound.
cheers
I had a few names for some fuzzface seriesed mod thing I had going, one was two-face, casually mentioned, there was large MINEY MINE over writing that in the middle of a long thread, wonder if it's the same origin...seemed rather rude and bohascious at the time, probably where the idea came from was my biased, not care enough to want to be selfish about it, opinion.
If it's not the same guy, watch out there's someone that hates use of two-face name, even in threads. He'll come at you with the 'it's me or you and you are wrong' vibe.
Kinda ruined the interest and the thread, I started calling it double face IRC.
Not sure if I understand you exactly, but if some pedal builder is going around saying that he owns the name "Two Face", then I think he may want to have a chat with DC Comics' lawyers, as those DC guys have been ripping off this pedal builder's trademark for decades...
Quote from: caress on August 24, 2010, 12:40:04 PM
i disagree. it's not terribly difficult to lay something out halfway decently... especially when it seems there was obviously time spent on the enclosure layout, graphics, etc.
it would suck to service that, even for the builder.
Yeah, it could be better. But what matters to most end users is that it works - that it works reliably and doesn't give them problems (like squealing, etc.). Servicing that would definitely be a PITA. But then again, there's not much you could do with an epoxied PCB anyway. Maybe you could change the pots or something. That wouldn't be that hard to do.
I'm not advocating mangled wiring like that at all, just making a point that pretty doesn't = better. One boutique builder on another forum (who I shall keep anonymous) was wondering why one of his customs was squealing. I looked at the pretty wiring job in the picture he posted and saw the problem immediately. He had input and output wires bundled together and in parallel with long wires from gain pots and so on. That pretty wiring job
was the cause of his problem(s). But it was pretty to look at. I however would rather have problem free reliability myself. If that means a little messy looking wiring, so be it.
Just making a point is all.
I wouldn't be surprised if the whole "booby trapping" thing is what's causing the biggest problem with Schumann's business. Seems like adding all of this stuff increases your production time and cost without adding anything that a customer finds worth paying for. While the interior shots seem to scaring, people away, at least people on this forum.
I'll say it again, I love those knobs, where does he get them? Or is that a booby trapped trade secret also?
Does no one out there own one of these things or know anyone who does?
Hi Paul,
QuoteOne boutique builder on another forum (who I shall keep anonymous) was wondering why one of his customs was squealing. I looked at the pretty wiring job in the picture he posted and saw the problem immediately. He had input and output wires bundled together and in parallel with long wires from gain pots and so on. That pretty wiring job was the cause of his problem(s). But it was pretty to look at. I however would rather have problem free reliability myself. If that means a little messy looking wiring, so be it.
So it was not "pretty job" : this guy had to learn basic wiring techniques and experience... Anyone who have designed and worked on AF and RF tube design know thoses simple wiring rules, which are useful
but not always compulsory when working on solid-state circuits.
IMHO, one of the pretty-est examples of wiring job is those of the HIWATT amps (DR103, SA112, etc...) from the Dave Reeves era : everything is neat, and you have the feeling that the chassis is empty...
But yes, I agree : "if it works, don't fix it" - and moreover, sometimes,
messy wiring can contribute to sound performance.
A+!
Quote from: Pigyboy on August 25, 2010, 03:11:45 AM
Does no one out there own one of these things or know anyone who does?
I don't think you're asking on the right forum. DIYSBers are not the type to pay upwards of $500 for a rat's nest. I know there's a guy on Talkbass.com who has all of the Schumann pedals including 2 PLLs.
But I don't think there's much that is all that special to be honest. I guarantee that the PLL is based on the same couple of chips that make up the Harmony Generator. It's right there in the name. I built up a Harmony Generator with 7 simultaneous octaves (starting at 3 octaves down and going up to 3 octaves up) - this is like the boutique pedal that the PLL GASes for. :icon_wink: These pedals are cool, and especially they look nice on the outside, but they are mostly so sought-after because of their unobtainability, not because they have any ideas going on that don't already exist in DIY projects.
Quote from: tubelectron on August 25, 2010, 03:56:54 AM
Hi Paul,
QuoteOne boutique builder on another forum (who I shall keep anonymous) was wondering why one of his customs was squealing. I looked at the pretty wiring job in the picture he posted and saw the problem immediately. He had input and output wires bundled together and in parallel with long wires from gain pots and so on. That pretty wiring job was the cause of his problem(s). But it was pretty to look at. I however would rather have problem free reliability myself. If that means a little messy looking wiring, so be it.
So it was not "pretty job" : this guy had to learn basic wiring techniques and experience... Anyone who have designed and worked on AF and RF tube design know thoses simple wiring rules, which are useful but not always compulsory when working on solid-state circuits.
IMHO, one of the pretty-est examples of wiring job is those of the HIWATT amps (DR103, SA112, etc...) from the Dave Reeves era : everything is neat, and you have the feeling that the chassis is empty...
But yes, I agree : "if it works, don't fix it" - and moreover, sometimes, messy wiring can contribute to sound performance.
A+!
I see what you are saying. But in the example I pointed out the
only consideration was making the wiring look pretty. That's what got him into trouble. And I was even more surprised that it was a boutique pedal builder asking such a basic question. If you see his pedals from the exterior, it's very obvious that the emphasis is on everything being pretty. Polished enclosures, shiny aluminum knobs, lettering etched or stamped into the surface of the enclosure, etc.
Here's my 2 cents, FWIW: Making stupidly exaggerated pretty wiring is just as bad as messy wiring. Except in the case of the Hiwatt guy, or someone trying purposely to throw people off the track with messiness (kind of a stupid idea anyway)- uber-neat or messy wiring generally reflects upon a novice-level knowledge of electronics and electrical wiring in general- at best. Real electronics manufacturers do what is necessary, no more and no less, for wiring. They follow a basic set of rules and keep it neat, but it's no fashion show or beauty contest. It's purely functional, something bootweakers have completely lost sight of, if they ever had sight of it to begin with.
My advice for these people is to graduate from kindergarten, grow up, learn something about the industry they are working in- tools of the trade, proper practices, basic electricity- and then try to be pragmatic. Won't make for kewl glossy innard photos on the gear page, but you will have a consistent, serviceable, and reliable product that makes its own reputation.
Quote from: DougH on August 25, 2010, 10:21:51 AM
Here's my 2 cents, FWIW: Making stupidly exaggerated pretty wiring is just as bad as messy wiring. Except in the case of the Hiwatt guy, or someone trying purposely to throw people off the track with messiness (kind of a stupid idea anyway)- uber-neat or messy wiring generally reflects upon a novice-level knowledge of electronics and electrical wiring in general- at best. Real electronics manufacturers do what is necessary, no more and no less, for wiring. They follow a basic set of rules and keep it neat, but it's no fashion show or beauty contest. It's purely functional, something bootweakers have completely lost sight of, if they ever had sight of it to begin with.
Exactly!
I don't think the point is that neat wiring is the be all to end all. I think the point is that the level of "birdsnestiness" that the wiring in that picture attains is ridiculous. You don't have to run wires at right angles, etc. My stuff is pretty cluttered in the boxes. However, if I was going to sell something I would clean it up quite a bit. There is a way to be neat and compact with your wiring and not "cross the streams" and cause sound issues. IMO, and MO only, that rats nest is a reflection of quality and pride in one's work. Its like buying a car with the mirrors slightly hanging and a cracked bumper. It works just fine but would you buy it, compared to something else in the price range.
Quote from: modsquad on August 25, 2010, 02:18:32 PM
"cross the streams"
Boy, does that bring back some funny memories... Crossing streams, sword fighting, etc... :icon_mrgreen:
Hi all,
Here's what I call a neat/pretty job wiring : it's well designed and executed, easy to service AND OF COURSE efficient. Otherwise, it's not. The innards of a SA112/DR504 HIWATT amp is shown below for the ultimate reference (in tube amp wiring) :
(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/258963dr504_1.jpg)
About pedals, the wirings from John Lyons in his releases (see the "pictures" subject in this forum) are to be considered as references also. I think that what he does is... Efficient, indeed...
A+!
I love all the different views ;D
I started the thread here and not on another forum because most guys with one of these pedals are definitely not going to let someone go poking around inside. We have some adventurous souls here who would ford the waters of spaghetti wiring-dom to reveal what is the truth behind these monstrosities. We have to know now.
And..
Where did he get the knobs?
My goto source for nice knobs is Marvac. But they don't have anything quite like that. Since he's in Brooklyn I think, I wouldn't be surprised if he bought them in a little hole-in-the-wall Russian surplus shop or something.
Quote from: tubelectron on August 25, 2010, 04:16:35 PM
Hi all,
Here's what I call a neat/pretty job wiring : it's well designed and executed, easy to service AND OF COURSE efficient. Otherwise, it's not. The innards of a SA112/DR504 HIWATT amp is shown below for the ultimate reference (in tube amp wiring) :
(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/258963dr504_1.jpg)
About pedals, the wirings from John Lyons in his releases (see the "pictures" subject in this forum) are to be considered as references also. I think that what he does is... Efficient, indeed...
A+!
(http://a.imageshack.us/img714/7981/amp2.jpg)
This is the amp i built, i've seen better looking wiring (it's a kit), but it works, i have no noise issues whatsoever. I think wiring should be essentially practical. Who cares about the looks, it's not like you're always looking inside it.
In the older days of electronics, they were built with the expectation that they would be in use for decades. So with that in mind, clean innards (but which don't sacrifice practicality) are essential. Because you won't always be looking in it, but over the years, other people will be looking into it. For many of us younger people, this doesn't matter because we were raised in an age of short electronics lifespan. The whole "disposable society" rant is so cliche that I won't repeat it, but you know where I'm going.
For people who did care about serviceability, clean, understandable insides were important. I just build lowly effects pedals but I try my best to make them clean inside because I like the idea of easy service, even years or decades from now. And from a production standpoint, doing a clean PCB which eliminates that wiring mess makes life so much easier and quicker. There's just no good argument in favor of pedals that look like that.
I notice you took the time to bend your wires at right angles and bundle them in long parallel lines. This is of course a visual concern, not a practical one. So you do care somewhat about keeping it clean and tidy inside. And that seems about right. It's not about making things perfect, but taking some care to balance crosstalk and noise issues with understandability.
Hi Taylor,
QuoteIn the older days of electronics, they were built with the expectation that they would be in use for decades. So with that in mind, clean innards (but which don't sacrifice practicality) are essential. Because you won't always be looking in it, but over the years, other people will be looking into it
This would be the written definition of the HIWATT wiring I pictured some posts before. Moreover, despite the neat wiring job, the placement of the components has been designed to achieve the shortest logical routing... As we all know, HIWATTS are excellent sounding amps (I had 2 of them in the past), so that's why I call it "ultimate reference" in wiring work.
A+!
Those Hiwatt amps are like works of art with the layout and wiring in them. You can be sure that everything was done for a reason (and not to make it pretty). It's probably more coincincidence that it looks so "pretty" than intentional. Form follows function here, and it looks to me like it was designed to be as efficient as possible in terms of reliability, problem free operation and minimal use of materials.
It's all about pre and post analysis, the next one should be even better until there's really no room for improvement.
Some builds show it, some don't, and it's all in the logic of the eye of the beholder.
Hot on the Trail of a few Schumann pedals. This guys knows what he has but apparently hates J. Schumann for sticking him with pedals that now have problems. Weird situation. He has stuff that does not work but he knows it is worth money. He thinks no one else can fix them so they are worthless but valuable. I am waiting till he runs out of weed then I will make that offer he cannot refuse!
My previous rant was about shades of gray (hopefully that was obvious). There's "neat and understandable", which makes perfect sense. Here's the innards of an amp I built, which I feel falls into this category:
(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=22769&g2_serialNumber=2)
It's not going to win a TGP beauty contest, but I can easily understand the circuitry without consulting the schematic. That makes it extremely easy to service.
Then there's "stupidly pretty" which we have all seen plenty of examples of.
I'll leave to you all to draw the lines between them. It is somewhat subjective, and not always easily defined. But like pr0n, I know it when I see it.
Quote from: DougH on August 26, 2010, 07:51:19 AM
My previous rant was about shades of gray (hopefully that was obvious). There's "neat and understandable", which makes perfect sense. Here's the innards of an amp I built, which I feel falls into this category:
(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=22769&g2_serialNumber=2)
It's not going to win a TGP beauty contest, but I can easily understand the circuitry without consulting the schematic. That makes it extremely easy to service.
Then there's "stupidly pretty" which we have all seen plenty of examples of.
I'll leave to you all to draw the lines between them. It is somewhat subjective, and not always easily defined. But like pr0n, I know it when I see it.
Nothing wrong with your amp in my book. :icon_cool: