Hey guys,
Give me a hand,
This is my first build from scratch. Made a germanium fuzz face and it sounds beautiful. The weird part is, it only seems to work properly when linked after my overdrive- NOT WITH IT TURNED ON, without that, its quiet and harder to get a nice sound. I think it could be a problem with my grounding or something i don't know. It's as if it needs an active signal going in rather than passive... What do you think?
may be the overdrive has got a buffer which helps the thing???
Quote from: vendettav on April 16, 2011, 03:02:28 PM
may be the overdrive has got a buffer which helps the thing???
Maybe. Was thinking about adding a clean boost curcuit. How does a buffer work? I thought buffer was to eliminate unwanted noise? My problem is i don't get enough noise...
Is the fuzz face a PNP version? Positive ground?
Are you tying it into the same PS as an NPN (Negative ground) device?
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on April 16, 2011, 09:36:02 PM
Is the fuzz face a PNP version? Positive ground?
Are you tying it into the same PS as an NPN (Negative ground) device?
It's pnp, running off a 9v battery. But it doesn't sound good unless it's pugged in after my boss od2. The od2 doesnt have to be turned on. I thoght it could possibly be that the battery is just dying, but i tryed the same ps that the boss uses, and got the same result.
I'm kinda wondering if maybe I've wired the ground wrong? It's pnp right? Does that mean the positive from the battery needs to be grounded to earth? I haven't done that. I've grounded the negative. I know the powers going through the circuit correctly, otherwise it wouldn't work and sound so great, right?
ooh yeah, the positive ground means that the positive from the battery goes to the ground,and negative goes to the ..we ll you know where :D
Quote from: MrTonesNZ on April 17, 2011, 05:55:34 AM
I'm kinda wondering if maybe I've wired the ground wrong? It's pnp right?
You're the only one that can tell that. What transistors did you use? Look it up and see if they're PNP or NPN?
http://english.electronica-pt.com/db/cross-reference.php
Quote
Does that mean the positive from the battery needs to be grounded to earth? I haven't done that. I've grounded the negative. I know the powers going through the circuit correctly, otherwise it wouldn't work and sound so great, right?
It'd be cool if you posted the schematic, so we could help easier...Note the battery hook-up if it's PNP:
(http://fuzzcentral.ssguitar.com/fuzzface/fuzzfacepnpschematic.gif)
I always use black and blue wires for positive ground effects. The black is the signal ground and goes to the positive side of the battery. The blue is the negative power supply and goes to the negative side of the battery.
If makes sense when combined with a normal effect. The black wires can be connected and the red is plus and the blue is minus. Now you have a bipolar supply. Never ever deviate on color codes unless you are color blind ;D.
This helps a lot when you have multiple effects in similar boxes and you forgot one was pnp.
There's nothing to compare the board connection/circuit measurements to.
The debugging page instructs what to do that enables us to look into the circuit, with schematic used, voltages/tests..
specifically, what Pete meant to say was:
(http://www.luciferstrip.com/fuzz/debug.jpg) (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=29816.0)
Quote from: vendettav on April 17, 2011, 10:11:17 AM
ooh yeah, the positive ground means that the positive from the battery goes to the ground,and negative goes to the ..we ll you know where :D
Ok, that's well and good, but wouldn't that make it incompatible with my other pedals?
Here's the schematic, I've followed it to a 'T'. I've grounded the black wire, which is going to the "-" side of the battery.
(http://static3.nagi.ee/i/p/609/11/15227811ed62e0_o.jpg)
OK it's PNP, then. "GND" should labeled something like "-9V" as it is the negative lead of the battery, not ground. If you can take a picture of your circuit, that would help.
Quote from: MrTonesNZ on April 18, 2011, 12:49:19 AM
Quote from: vendettav on April 17, 2011, 10:11:17 AM
ooh yeah, the positive ground means that the positive from the battery goes to the ground,and negative goes to the ..we ll you know where :D
Ok, that's well and good, but wouldn't that make it incompatible with my other pedals?
yes... you cant power them with the same source of other Neg_gnd pedals, unless you build into your FF a "polatiry inverter" (don't remember the right name now), I think forummate John Lyons did something like that, do a search (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/Themes/diytheme/images/english/search.gif) here.
Cheers
Armando
Quote from: MrTonesNZ on April 18, 2011, 12:49:19 AM
Quote from: vendettav on April 17, 2011, 10:11:17 AM
ooh yeah, the positive ground means that the positive from the battery goes to the ground,and negative goes to the ..we ll you know where :D
Ok, that's well and good, but wouldn't that make it incompatible with my other pedals?
not if it is powered by a separate power supply
Quote from: MrTonesNZ on April 18, 2011, 01:03:59 AM
Here's the schematic
[vero img removed]
that is called a vero layout
Quote from: blooze_man on April 18, 2011, 02:07:38 AM
OK it's PNP, then. "GND" should labeled something like "-9V" as it is the negative lead of the battery, not ground. If you can take a picture of your circuit, that would help.
Awesome thanks that does help. I wonder why my OD2 fixes the problem then? Can anyone answer that??
Indeed what the other people said, you will need a separate power supply. But if you always use a battery it is the best way.
Using black and blue wires is a way to show internally that it is wired differently. Using black and red wires will make the red wire ground... That messes up your mind when you open it some years from now.
If you power your effects by a daisy chain cable then you might want to show on the outside that it is positive ground. Or you could use a different kind of connector for these effects. Using power supplies that can be safely shorted (using a 78(L)09 chip) works too.
I wasn't very happy with the negative ground conversion on a pnp fuzz face. It was much noisier so I went back to positive ground. I solved it by building my own power supply with isolated outputs.
Quote from: jasperoosthoek on April 18, 2011, 05:38:28 AM
Indeed what the other people said, you will need a separate power supply. But if you always use a battery it is the best way.
Using black and blue wires is a way to show internally that it is wired differently. Using black and red wires will make the red wire ground... That messes up your mind when you open it some years from now.
If you power your effects by a daisy chain cable then you might want to show on the outside that it is positive ground. Or you could use a different kind of connector for these effects. Using power supplies that can be safely shorted (using a 78(L)09 chip) works too.
I wasn't very happy with the negative ground conversion on a pnp fuzz face. It was much noisier so I went back to positive ground. I solved it by building my own power supply with isolated outputs.
Thanks for that advise.
It's quite a messy looking thing. I used whatever I could recycle, so all the wiring is currently black. Might just label it somehow. Resources are a bit limited in this part of the world, there aren't exactly any shops i can drive down to, as they're mostly piles of rubble, or just inaccessible. Silly earthquakes!
Awesome thanks that does help. I wonder why my OD2 fixes the problem then? Can anyone answer that??
[/quote]
^ Still very curious about this. Why does my FF work properly when plugged into my boss OD2?
The OD2 is not true bypass. I found a schematic here http://www.schematicx.com/schematic/boss-od-2-turbo-overdrive-pedal-schematic/ (http://www.schematicx.com/schematic/boss-od-2-turbo-overdrive-pedal-schematic/)
Looking at the schematic the output stage is always on. Whether bypassed or not the signal always passes through Q2. So the output stage helps the Fuzz Face work.
I think that you might have forgotten the first capacitor in your fuzz face, or you miswired it somehow. If you forget it the guitar signal is never loud enough to pass a signal though. Maybe you will get a chopped distorted sound (squelch knob on a scanner) with a very hot signal. If this is true the OD2's output cap takes the function of the missing FF output cap and it therefore works. The 100k resistor in the OD2 messes up the FF bias though.
I hope you guys in NS are able to pick up the pieces! Last year I went to Tokyo, that made the quake there come awfully close.
Quote from: jasperoosthoek on April 18, 2011, 02:44:30 PM
The OD2 is not true bypass. I found a schematic here http://www.schematicx.com/schematic/boss-od-2-turbo-overdrive-pedal-schematic/ (http://www.schematicx.com/schematic/boss-od-2-turbo-overdrive-pedal-schematic/)
Looking at the schematic the output stage is always on. Whether bypassed or not the signal always passes through Q2. So the output stage helps the Fuzz Face work.
I think that you might have forgotten the first capacitor in your fuzz face, or you miswired it somehow. If you forget it the guitar signal is never loud enough to pass a signal though. Maybe you will get a chopped distorted sound (squelch knob on a scanner) with a very hot signal. If this is true the OD2's output cap takes the function of the missing FF output cap and it therefore works. The 100k resistor in the OD2 messes up the FF bias though.
I hope you guys in NS are able to pick up the pieces! Last year I went to Tokyo, that made the quake there come awfully close.
Mmm maybe, I havn't missed any components, so maybe the input cap is just bung? I'll try changing the ground first and see if that helps. If I can't fix it, I'll probably just run with what i've got, sounds great, that's the main thing! I've got enough components to make another few anyway.
Thanks, about the quakes. We are doing ok :)
Maybe you can give me the transistor voltages of the fuzz face? That tells a lot. The input cap could indeed be shorted, that would of course be similar to not having one.
Quote from: jasperoosthoek on April 19, 2011, 05:35:24 AM
Maybe you can give me the transistor voltages of the fuzz face? That tells a lot. The input cap could indeed be shorted, that would of course be similar to not having one.
No I can't i'm affraid. Havn't got the tools to mesure that kind of thing yet, I just went for the "try them all and see what sounds best" method. I used a variable resistor for the bias, come to think of it though, maybie it's somthing to do with my bias? I found I couldnt actually hear a difference when turning it, didn't think much of it.
That could proove that the cap is gone, or maybie the pot? I don't know. If it is somthing like that, I think i may just start again from scratch, because boy it's a royal mess. I was using a blunt solder iron, and in my noviceness, I figured it would be easy enough to use the exact same layout for stripboard, on perfboard. And I just connected the curcuit using lines of solder. THAT WAS A MISSION, NEARLY KILLED ME :icon_eek:.... Definitly re-think the layout, possibly use a few more jumpers... Haha, gotta learn somehow though aye! :P
By the way Jasper O, thanks for your help, you are officially the first person on my buddy list ;D Cheers
Your welcome man ;D.
Put a DMM on the first place of your to buy list. Mine came from a German budget supermarket. I think I paid something like 6 euros. Cheap tools that do the job make you come a long way, try ebay. Mine even measures Hfe and diode forward voltage! The 200 euro Fluke at work doesn't ;D.
Quote from: jasperoosthoek on April 19, 2011, 01:58:07 PM
Your welcome man ;D.
Put a DMM on the first place of your to buy list. Mine came from a German budget supermarket. I think I paid something like 6 euros. Cheap tools that do the job make you come a long way, try ebay. Mine even measures Hfe and diode forward voltage! The 200 euro Fluke at work doesn't ;D.
Cool, any particular brand? And do they run on mains or battery?
The supermarket is called Aldi and they have electronics from the brand 'Top Craft'. They run on a 9V battery.
(http://gksgmbh.info/fotos/1074254482multimeter.jpg)
Trying to find the thing online made me realize that I paid 3 euros not 6 :o. They are dirt cheap and very good. Only the (low) current input is broken, the 10A works fine.. Comparable to multimeters that cost tenfold. But you're as far as you can get from where I live (Netherlands) without going into space. :icon_lol:
And there are a lot better multimeters, mine was just a demonstration of that fact that cheap can be much better than expected. I still need a better one that also measures capacitance and inductance. I'd be ordering this one right now if I wasn't going abroad for two weeks :D: http://cgi.ebay.com/VC6243-Multimeter-Inductance-Capacitance-compared-Fluke-/200596583539?pt=UK_AudioElectronicsVideo_Video_TelevisionSetTopBoxes&hash=item2eb47cf473 (http://cgi.ebay.com/VC6243-Multimeter-Inductance-Capacitance-compared-Fluke-/200596583539?pt=UK_AudioElectronicsVideo_Video_TelevisionSetTopBoxes&hash=item2eb47cf473)
I've heard some good stories about that one on this forum.
Ok, that's well and good, but wouldn't that make it incompatible with my other pedals?
I could put a 'sure' in here but that'sb the last thing...like after it works.
Still confusing...
THe Capacitor orientations aren't marked.
It looks like PNP, Neg. Gdn. fuzzface, schematics which show each and every connection and nodes is the head of the hammer, though not easily wielded and manipulated to crush shown bug, with a bit of experience is handles more like a flyswatter, very few bugs escape an experienced, equipped debugger.
A schematic and a DMM, the DMM can veryfy anything on the board to be like [not just look like] what the schematic connections and values are, comparing what the voltages would be to what they are...
I look for particular markers such as [in FF] B/E diode [which way it is pointing..], and then an emitter that connects to "Gnd.'', then I try to figure out if ''Gnd.'' is the most negative circuit potential, or whether it is the most positive circuit potential [ie as in PNP Pos. Gnd.
Then place all the polarized components according to where the most + node associated with their placement is, so as to set it up without reverse polarizing anything.
Ok so here's the thing. I find this weird. Grounded to positive, It work's, but doesn't sound nearly as good as what I had before. Im a bit sad really :icon_cry: any ideas on how to make my original circuit work well? Are there any threads on pnp fuzz faces with negitive ground? I want to know what it is about my od2 that made my fuzz so awesome. ???
I find with my new Positive groud. It's cleaner, and i still have the original problem of being a bit quiet...
AND, new discovery, My boss rc2 helps it too..
may be try and put a buffer into it?
Quote from: vendettav on April 23, 2011, 09:12:28 AM
may be try and put a buffer into it?
How does a buffer work? I always thought it was to stop nosie ??? :icon_question:
Hmm i can't quite think of an answer to that question but i guess it's just me
try these links i found very informative
http://www.muzique.com/lab/buffers.htm
http://www.petecornish.co.uk/case_against_true_bypass.html
basically buffer helps the signal. so if your tone is sucked and whatnot.. idk.. Ima build the TL071 soon when I get to build my pedalboard :)8 pedals are already a lot for the signal pass :)
Far out! whats going on? I just made a silicon NPN version. And I have exactly the same problem. Sounds fantastic with a pedal behind it, dull and quiet without. Without, it kind of cuts out, and sputters when I play a bit harder, or turn the volume up.
>:(
well the only thing i can think of is what i've already suggested. may be try one? it's not hard at all
Quote from: vendettav on April 25, 2011, 09:48:49 AM
well the only thing i can think of is what i've already suggested. may be try one? it's not hard at all
I do like your idea, but I just think there must be something I keep doing wrong. This circuit shouldn't need a buffer. But i will try. Can you give me a good schematic?
Thanks V
By the way, this is the shematic I used this time
(http://www.muzique.com/schem/fuzzface.gif)
are you sure you have the right pinout on your transistors?? I remember thinking "and you call this fuzz?" on one of the schematics i breadboarded and than it turned out i had one of the transistors the wrong way. still that doesn't make much sense cause you say it works with the pedal before that and in the off position. so when it's off it's the buffer that's still in there right?? that's why i keep on thinking a buffer will help
http://www.muzique.com/images/buff8.gif this one is my pick actually :)
simpole and yet effective if you want to read some more about it it's here http://www.muzique.com/lab/buffers.htm (the 2nd from the bottom)
hope that helps. im really interested if the buffer will help as well
OK, probably over thinking this one. The output of the OD2 (according to my understanding of the schematic) is 8.2 volts. So, without the OD2, the input of the FF should be zero right? Would it make sense to wire a resistor from the input to the +9v? I'm probably totally insane... :-\
Quote from: jasperoosthoek on April 18, 2011, 02:44:30 PM
The OD2 is not true bypass. I found a schematic here http://www.schematicx.com/schematic/boss-od-2-turbo-overdrive-pedal-schematic/ (http://www.schematicx.com/schematic/boss-od-2-turbo-overdrive-pedal-schematic/)
Looking at the schematic the output stage is always on. Whether bypassed or not the signal always passes through Q2. So the output stage helps the Fuzz Face work.
I think that you might have forgotten the first capacitor in your fuzz face, or you miswired it somehow. If you forget it the guitar signal is never loud enough to pass a signal though. Maybe you will get a chopped distorted sound (squelch knob on a scanner) with a very hot signal. If this is true the OD2's output cap takes the function of the missing FF output cap and it therefore works. The 100k resistor in the OD2 messes up the FF bias though.
I hope you guys in NS are able to pick up the pieces! Last year I went to Tokyo, that made the quake there come awfully close.
Thinking about this, maybe my 2.2uf input cap isn't the right bias for my transistors. I'll try upsizing it
is it polarized right actually? ie negative pin to the input and the positive to the tranny
oph and that output stage actually does look like a buffer to me
Quote from: vendettav on April 26, 2011, 01:53:31 PM
is it polarized right actually? ie negative pin to the input and the positive to the tranny
oph and that output stage actually does look like a buffer to me
Yea it is aye. I've gotten desperate. I'm just gonna experiment with it until i find the answer
Sounds like your circuit is making ground contact (and working) via the other pedals.
I'd suggest having a break for a day or so (you'd be amazed how that can reveal the obvious) and then triple checking your soldering, pinouts, and offboard wiring in that order.
Please post clear photos of the both sides of the board and your off board wiring if you are stuck..
You have DSE is in New Zealand?
I'd head there and pick up a multimeter. You can usually get basic models for ~ $10 and some really nice ones for just a little more.
Futurlec has cheapies too if you can wait a couple of weeks. http://www.futurlec.com/Multimeters.shtml (http://www.futurlec.com/Multimeters.shtml)
Quote from: Toney on April 27, 2011, 02:20:09 AM
Sounds like your circuit is making ground contact (and working) via the other pedals.
I'd suggest having a break for a day or so (you'd be amazed how that can reveal the obvious) and then triple checking your soldering, pinouts, and offboard wiring in that order.
Please post clear photos of the both sides of the board and your off board wiring if you are stuck..
You have DSE is in New Zealand?
I'd head there and pick up a multimeter. You can usually get basic models for ~ $10 and some really nice ones for just a little more.
Futurlec has cheapies too if you can wait a couple of weeks. http://www.futurlec.com/Multimeters.shtml (http://www.futurlec.com/Multimeters.shtml)
Thanks Tones, (good name) 8), yea we do have dse. But not here in Christchurch where everythings munted. Well there's 1, but i checked there yesterday, and they don't stock them at that shop. I'm stoked though because my local components shop, has re-opened and they've got a good multimeter for 12 bucks or something. I'll post pics when i can, but I'm running out of spare time as I have assignments due.
The only problem with your theory is, all the ground points are grounded to the sleeve, as far as I know, and I don't understand how adding another pedal to the chain would then ground any point of the circuit that i might have missed...
I initially thought the same thing.
By the way, good to see an Aussie on the forum, nice to know I'm not alone in the southern hemisphere ;D
There are an infinite number of possibilities...
Why not chuck up those photos. It's a such a simple circuit but it has "got" many a person along the way.
You really need that multimeter. How are you setting 4.5v on Q2's collector without it?
Like I said: soldering, pinouts, and offboard wiring in that order. The are the most usual ones.
Weird grounding issues are quite possible too. I regularly 'surprise' myself by messing up the tabs on the input jack as one of the last unimportant jobs in a build.
Quote from: Toney on April 28, 2011, 01:17:17 AM
There are an infinite number of possibilities...
Why not chuck up those photos. It's a such a simple circuit but it has "got" many a person along the way.
You really need that multimeter. How are you setting 4.5v on Q2's collector without it?
Like I said: soldering, pinouts, and offboard wiring in that order. The are the most usual ones.
Weird grounding issues are quite possible too. I regularly 'surprise' myself by messing up the tabs on the input jack as one of the last unimportant jobs in a build.
Bought a multimeter today! 17 bucks, not bad. Will post pics, after i finish this assignment, and then you all can tell me whats "REALLY" goin on :P
And then I'll have myself a couple of awesome sounding fuzzes which I've built myself, from scratch. And i'll have the best sense of accomplishment. CAN'T WAIT!
And thanks everyone for hanging in here with me. What a long process this is turning out to be!
oky doky, Happy new DMM day lol
i'll stay tuned to contribute y best
V
:icon_mrgreen: Hello everyone, just letting you know, I still exist, and I'll have an update this week. I'm back at course and its all on Donkey Kong!
hey man! how is it going? yeah make sure you keep us updated :)