since so many like the Shin-Ei FY-2 si, I thought I'd note that I posted a quick build report for the FY-2 ge under the "Mosrite FuzzRite Ventures 1590A 2000 Pound Bee" ....the thread started with Fuzzrite and moved to the FY-2 ge when tubelectron posted that old "manuscript" looking schematic:
(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/488417FY2shineifuzzoriginalschem.jpg)
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=90579.msg792143#msg792143
Cool! Thanks for the build report!
Hi LuciferTrips,
I report here your trails about that Ge FY-2 you've posted in the Mosrite FuzzRite Ventures 1590A 2000 Pound Bee.
(http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=90579.0 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=90579.0))
Quote from: LucifersTrip on July 05, 2011, 05:21:36 PM
Quote from: tubelectron on July 02, 2011, 05:25:10 PM
QuoteThat's great! I made the 1.5k correction to the schematic...Yes, on the datasheet online it shows 2SB56 hfe 80. Did you actually measure the hfe's of the original you had in hand?
Unfortunately no... It wasn't mine and I lacked time to do it ! :icon_confused:
But let me know the result if you made a trial ! I am very busy these times on tube amps, but I'll try to get on it ASAP...
A+!
Ok...I breadboarded with this schematic:
(http://www.luciferstrip.com/fuzz/fy-2-ge.jpg)
I used 2 transistors with approx 80 - 85 hfe with very low leakage.
It worked right off and actually is a very nasty fuzz! There is one problem...the 50K volume.
When I turned the volume from 0 to 10%, there was a much larger increase than expected...it was already at unity by 20% or 30%. Also, as the volume increased, the bass increased. By the time you get to 100%, it's insanely loud and totally bassy & muffled. It's similar to what would happen if you remove diodes from a diode-clipping fuzz...you'd be left with way too much volume and a big muddy mess.
I slowly decreased the volume pot. When I used a 10K it was pretty cool. The volume increases a little too fast and the last 30% was too bassy and muddy....but a 5K did the trick! ...a perfect, steady increase in volume and only little bass increase as you go. I almost want to think that the schematic has an error.
One more note...you may want to use a fuzz pot up to around 30 or 40K. I get a max fuzz at around that point. In the last 10 - 20K, the fuzz will start to gate....and go downhill.
So, all in all a pretty loud, nasty fuzz. Now, I'll start experimenting with different transistors to see if I can get a better tone.
The voltages (e,b,c):
Q1: -.15, -.36, -.67
Q2: -.46, -.67, -2.40
The issues you have from the pot values are unusual - I discard the lack of progressivity that you can probably solve by the choice of a log taper, fo course - but what makes me curious is this change in tone (from nasty to bass and muddy) when you turn the pot.
I am akeen to suspect some external influence :
- was the effect alone between the guitar and the amp ?
- are you shure you hadn't any parasitic oscillation or RF radio effect superimposed at certain settings ?
It's nonetheless a simple device worth to try fro me... ASAP !
A+!
I bread boarded this last night. Changed polarity and went with some Germ NPNs. Q1 is 250 hfe and Q2 is probably around 30. Instead of the fuzz pot I put a
10k in it's place. Really good fuzz tones. Nice and full. Still has some 60's buzz to it. Like it a lot. I have more bass and fuzz with the volume up as well and then it cleans up a bit when you turn it down. I think it's a keeper...
Quote from: glops on July 06, 2011, 11:25:26 AM
Q1 is 250 hfe and Q2 is probably around 30.
Is this a typo? Q2 = Hfe 30 ???
Could this circuit be considered to share the basic Fuzz Face topography? Apart from the specific values, and the emitter components on Q1, it sure looks that way.
Sweet! Thanks for the experiments.
Quote from: Mark Hammer on July 06, 2011, 11:49:01 AM
Could this circuit be considered to share the basic Fuzz Face topography? Apart from the specific values, and the emitter components on Q1, it sure looks that way.
Yeah...it does look that way...Q1C straight to Q2B and the old Q1B to Q2E resistor...though, it really doesn't sound like one. So far mine actually sounds closer to a Fuzzrite variant...it's surprising, but I did alter the vol pot, which removes fatness
The fact that's it a FF variant (basically) leads me to believe that I should try to get close to the classic 4.5v on Q2C...that's next.
just did a quick test by subbing a pot for the 22K on Q2's collector
I got 4.5v at 15K, but it's actually worse...much more harsh
At 29K it starts to gate...it's 1.0v at that point.
I did a blind test and stopped the pot where I thought it sounded best. 2.2v, 24K
Unlike a FF where if you get down to 2-3v, you'll get mush and a large volume decrease, you don't have to worry about that here. It's so loud and brutal, that softness actually helps.
If you want the harsh metallic tones, raise to 4-5v by lowering that collector resistor. You'll get similar tones is if you raise
both the resistors in scoop of the silicon version (I modded the si version with 50k & 100K pots subbed for the 10K & 15K resistors in the scoop)
Also, when I hit 4.5v I started getting some massive feedback/wailing when the volume was full...no problem at 2-3v
But even at 2-3v I was getting a little sizzle and the treble can be a bit brutal. Just like with a FF, a small cap across Q1BC worked great. I used a 100pf. At this point, it's easily good enough to box, but I'll try other transistors 1st...
Hey LucifersTrip
I just set this up on the breadboard
and was getting 5.6v on Q2C.
Also I was getting a lot of interference.
But I thought the fuzz sounded cool.
I had to kind of rig the pots up with
alligator clips so that may be where
the interference was coming from.
I'll try to mess with it all later and
try to dial in some different voltages.
Thanks for your report!
I'll try to measure my voltages, as well. I couldn't sleep last night so I started breadboarding this at 5 in the morning. After trying PNP and not getting results I switched things over to NPN and was nice and surprised with the sounds on my headphones. I got some fuzzrite like tones, as well, with some added beefy. With a 250 hfe germ in Q1 and a 37 hfe in Q2 I got some serious great sounding fuzz. Definitely gonna box it up, sounds better than any fuzz I've done lately...
Quote from: jrod on July 06, 2011, 10:59:20 PM
Hey LucifersTrip
I just set this up on the breadboard
and was getting 5.6v on Q2C.
Also I was getting a lot of interference.
Firstly, what were the hfe's you used? If you used ones with 70+, then I say:
"exactly"....raise the 22K on Q2's collector to drop it to around 2.5-4v and put a very small cap 100pf across Q1's BC.
I got alsmot the EXACT same result with my 80 hfe's.
Quote
But I thought the fuzz sounded cool.
I had to kind of rig the pots up with
alligator clips so that may be where
the interference was coming from.
I'll try to mess with it all later and
try to dial in some different voltages.
Thanks for your report!
I use only alligator clips. With vol at 100%, this one is super loud and can get a lot of feedback & interference, especially if the voltage is over 5v
============================
That being said, I experimented further. The original uses 2SB56's with hfe max 80, so I used all Japanese transistors with hfe's no greater than 80...and let me tell you this has to be the greatest fuzz for any beginner who wants to get his/her feet wet with germanium, because whatever hfe I threw in there gave me a nasty, loud fuzz (80/80, 80/40, 40/80, 80/20, 20/80,40/40, etc....)
Though, I can conclude a couple things. 1) For me, it always sounded better with Q1 higher hfe than Q2 when there was a significant difference between hfe's. When you swap the two (ie 80/40 or 40/80) you get similar voltage readings on Q2's collector....but 80/40 sounded better.
2) If you use higher hfe's, it sounds better with Q2's collector voltage smaller, but not lower than 2v.
...but it can sound excellent with Q2's collector at 4.5v if you use low gain transistors....and that's actually what I have in there as the "best" right now.
Believe it or not I have Q1 30, Q2 45 and 4.5v ...there's no feedback or interference and it's still loud & nasty. This is no Fuzz Face.
Quote from: glops on July 07, 2011, 12:08:18 AM
I'll try to measure my voltages, as well. I couldn't sleep last night so I started breadboarding this at 5 in the morning. After trying PNP and not getting results I switched things over to NPN and was nice and surprised with the sounds on my headphones. I got some fuzzrite like tones, as well, with some added beefy. With a 250 hfe germ in Q1 and a 37 hfe in Q2 I got some serious great sounding fuzz. Definitely gonna box it up, sounds better than any fuzz I've done lately...
I haven't tried gains that high, but again, you probably didn't check the leakage on that 250. I was laughing when you said you started at 5 am.
I was getting everyone around me annoyed in the mid afternoon because at that point it was untamed...but your headphones saved you. Wait till you crank it thru an amp.
headphones saved them! my ears are still bleeding.
on my bridge pickup, I get the perfect tone when I roll back the volume a bit. full tilt there's a little too much bass but it's a pretty damn
good sounding circuit without too much tweaking to get some great sounds. I made a fuzzrite variation a few weeks ago and it is still missing something.
At the right spot this gets that perfect fuzzrite sound I've always wanted.
Quote from: glops on July 07, 2011, 12:58:13 AM
headphones saved them! my ears are still bleeding.
that's great...it is an ear-ringer
Quote
on my bridge pickup, I get the perfect tone when I roll back the volume a bit. full tilt there's a little too much bass but it's a pretty damn
good sounding circuit without too much tweaking to get some great sounds. I made a fuzzrite variation a few weeks ago and it is still missing something.
At the right spot this gets that perfect fuzzrite sound I've always wanted.
killer...and it's basically a FF variant...btw, before you pull it off the breadboard try a 5K instead of the 10K vol pot, don't roll off the vol and see if there's still too much bass...
and remember, if 10k's too bassy at full and 5K's too trebley, then put a resistor across the 10K to get a 7-8K and you might hit a perfect spot where you can turn it up 100% and still like it...it'd be a sin to have to roll back the volume on this one!
Here's my final version.
Firstly, since the original 2SB56 had a max hfe of 80, it makes sense that the 2 choices would be lower than that. I upped the hfe a bit from my last "best" to 54 / 70. This also makes sense since it's a Fuzz Face variant and a FF sounds cool with 60-90 / 100-130 ...so this is in similar proportion.
Secondly, I noticed when the gains are at this level, you can actually get a good fuzz with a Q2 collector voltage all the way from ~ 2v - 6v.
That is why you can pretty much thrown anything in there and get a decent fuzz. Changing the voltage gives me more variation than the 50K fuzz, so since I decided to make it a 2 knobber, I set the fuzz to max, which for me was 30K. It's easy to find that point. Simply turn the 50K pot to max. You should get a mild gating (I did no matter what Q's I used). Then, turn slowly back while hitting chords and stop a short amount after the mild gating disappears.
Thirdly, like I wrote, I got a decent tone from 2v to 6v on Q2's collector. For me, 6v was around 8-9K and 2v was around 28-29K...so, 9K + 20K pot.
Lastly, the 100pf tames any noise/fizzle/harsh highs, etc...This one's is loud as hell (even with low hfe's) so it is more prone to noise at max vol.
(http://www.luciferstrip.com/fuzz/fy-2-ge-mod.jpg)
Quote from: LucifersTrip on July 07, 2011, 12:09:32 AM
Quote from: jrod on July 06, 2011, 10:59:20 PM
Hey LucifersTrip
I just set this up on the breadboard
and was getting 5.6v on Q2C.
Also I was getting a lot of interference.
Firstly, what were the hfe's you used? If you used ones with 70+, then I say:
"exactly"....raise the 22K on Q2's collector to drop it to around 2.5-4v and put a very small cap 100pf across Q1's BC.
I got alsmot the EXACT same result with my 80 hfe's.
I used 2SB176. Q1 - 80, Q2 - 108
I have a bunch of other Japanese transistors
and I will try your suggestions. THANKS!
Those are really interesting results. I went with
Fuzz Face type hfe readings because of how the
circuit looks, but am anxious to try out what you found.
I did notice how super loud this circuit is!
Rookie error! I love using vintage components but this time it hurt me.
It just didn't seem right that the vol pot was that far off, so I double-checked all hookups...good. then, i measured all the components. the
.002uf (a pulled one from the 60's) was closer to .02uf than .002uf
That would probably explain the 10-fold downsizing of the vol pot from 50K to 5K . At least I know my ears are right on the money.
Here's the correction:
(http://www.luciferstrip.com/fuzz/fy-2-ge-mod-corrected.jpg)
I replaced the vintage dud with a brand new .002 and the 50k now sounds cool. For me, it still gets a bit bassy in the last 10% so I put a 500K pot across the 50K vol pot and turned it down till I got the right sound. It turns out that a 45K pot (50k pot with 400K resistor across outer lugs) sounded the best for me.
With the correct .002 and 50k it's very similar to what it sounded like with the .02/5k, but it's a little more saturated.
I noticed that I could get away with a smaller taming cap if I put it across Q2BC, so I went with that...a 50pf
And lastly, after playing for hours, the best tone with those lower gain (54/70) transistors I used was when Q2's collector voltage is in the 6.5-7v range. This gives the exact type of saturated fuzz with chords and the buzzy fuzz with single low-string notes I'd expect. If I dropped to 4-5v the chords still sounded cool, but the single low notes start to become metallic and clangy. If you drop down to 2-3v, it softens a bit, but starts to mildly gate.
I got the best fuzz at 32K and the pot on Q2's collector goes from 8v (bumblebee fuzz, 5k) to 2.5v (still decent, but starting to gate, 25k)
So here is my final second version with the corrected output cap:
(http://www.luciferstrip.com/fuzz/fy-2-ge-mod2.jpg)
Quote from: LucifersTrip on July 08, 2011, 01:30:12 AM
It just didn't seem right that the vol pot was that far off, so I double-checked all hookups...good. then, i measured all the components. the
.002uf (a pulled one from the 60's) was closer to .02uf than .002uf
That would probably explain the 10-fold downsizing of the vol pot from 50K to 5K . At least I know my ears are right on the money.
Here's the correction:
(http://www.luciferstrip.com/fuzz/fy-2-ge-mod-corrected.jpg)
I'm glad you're digging this one and playing with it! I still have mine as reported before. I have a 50k for the volume. when maxxed out it's a little noisy and bassy but when you roll it back it cleans up and is perfect for a certain range. It's weird because the volume pot feels more like the guitar's volume pot in that it cleans up when you turn it down but doesn't necessarily lose much volume to a point. I'll have to make sure that this part is correct. It sounds awesome, though. Really really good. I've had these russian germs that I bought off of here that range in the 15-50 hfe range. Have had them for a year at least and haven't made use of them. Put one in Q2 with a RCA germ and it's perfect. Seems like this one is pretty versatile. I have never but a fuzzface but should do a comparison. If this ends up sounding like a fuzzface than I am going to curse myself for not playing with that circuit a long time ago...
Quote from: glops on July 08, 2011, 03:24:37 AM
I'm glad you're digging this one and playing with it! I still have mine as reported before. I have a 50k for the volume. when maxxed out it's a little noisy and bassy but when you roll it back it cleans up and is perfect for a certain range. It's weird because the volume pot feels more like the guitar's volume pot in that it cleans up when you turn it down but doesn't necessarily lose much volume to a point. I'll have to make sure that this part is correct.
it is weird...I checked numerous times to make sure it wasn't wired wrong. Though, it did help a bit when I lowered the vol pot to 45K. Now full vol is not too bassy. It works like a "normal" vol pot, but with a slow increase in bass thru the whole sweep
Quote
It sounds awesome, though. Really really good. I've had these russian germs that I bought off of here that range in the 15-50 hfe range. Have had them for a year at least and haven't made use of them. Put one in Q2 with a RCA germ and it's perfect. Seems like this one is pretty versatile.
right...as I wrote before, this has to be the best ge fuzz for a beginner...you pretty much can't not get a loud fuzz
Quote
I have never but a fuzzface but should do a comparison. If this ends up sounding like a fuzzface than I am going to curse myself for not playing with that circuit a long time ago...
don't worry...it's absolutely nothing like a Fuzz Face...it's much closer to an Orpheum or Fuzz Rite
Glad you got it working well!
I am still get a very high pitched whine that sounds like a dentists drill.
The fuzz sounds really cool, but that whine is deafening.
Maybe it's the breadboard? ???
jrod,
I would suspect some ultrasonic or RF oscillation...
Good job here - I hope I will find some time in the days to come to test a Ge FY-2 myself too !
A+!
Quote from: jrod on July 08, 2011, 09:45:52 AM
Glad you got it working well!
I am still get a very high pitched whine that sounds like a dentists drill.
at what fuzz & vol settings? all?
Quote
The fuzz sounds really cool, but that whine is deafening.
Maybe it's the breadboard? ???
did you try the 50-100pf cap across either BC?
(http://www.luciferstrip.com/fuzz/fy-2-ge-mod2.jpg)
voltage readings at my optimum sound:
Q1 ebc = -.18, -.34, -.58
Q2 ebc = -.42, -.59, -6.77
Quote from: LucifersTrip on July 08, 2011, 02:56:55 PM
Quote from: jrod on July 08, 2011, 09:45:52 AM
Glad you got it working well!
I am still get a very high pitched whine that sounds like a dentists drill.
at what fuzz & vol settings? all?
Quote
The fuzz sounds really cool, but that whine is deafening.
Maybe it's the breadboard? ???
did you try the 50-100pf cap across either BC?
Hey LT,
I am getting the whining at every level. Adjusting the fuzz knob doesn't seem to make any difference.
I did try lower gain transistors but have not tried the small cap between b-c.
I am going to give it another go this weekend when I have more time to try more of
your suggestions.
I have some 2SB77 I want to try out that are in the 60-80 hfe range.
Quote from: jrod on July 08, 2011, 05:59:06 PM
Quote from: LucifersTrip on July 08, 2011, 02:56:55 PM
Quote from: jrod on July 08, 2011, 09:45:52 AM
Glad you got it working well!
I am still get a very high pitched whine that sounds like a dentists drill.
at what fuzz & vol settings? all?
Quote
The fuzz sounds really cool, but that whine is deafening.
Maybe it's the breadboard? ???
did you try the 50-100pf cap across either BC?
Hey LT,
I am getting the whining at every level. Adjusting the fuzz knob doesn't seem to make any difference.
I did try lower gain transistors but have not tried the small cap between b-c.
I am going to give it another go this weekend when I have more time to try more of
your suggestions.
I have some 2SB77 I want to try out that are in the 60-80 hfe range.
we'll see what happens with the cap. tho, it could be interference. while breadboarding this one, when my kitchen light was on, it caused a massive buzz.
the most common time i get a whine is when the volume is up, but that's prob oscillation or feedback. Though, for yurr case, I guess it could just be a poor connection somewhere.
does the vol of the whine increase when you turn up the vol or is it the same regardless?
try a power filtering cap, and if that doesn't work, a small cap at the input to ground.
I'm bumping this bad boy. No time to build this right now, but I'm lurking this thread like a mofo.
I haven't had a chance to work with this again. Hopefully tonight!
I want to try RnFR's suggestions, too.
I may have found the source of all the interference: a florescent desk lamp on my "work bench"! DUH!
I've recently had to switch to the earphones method while listening to my experiments due to a complaint from a neighbor. On the earphone's this fuzz is perfect, when played through the same amp without the earphones it's not as good. I hate not bering able to crank my stuff before boxing. Really makes things harder...
Hi All - last but not least...
I found ultimately the time today to experiment on the Ge FY-2 that I sparkled on the forum some times ago, and which has been "fully fired and fueled" by Lucifer Trips and you all !
Here's what I have finally done :
(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/308176FY2GemodifiedBG30072011.jpg)
(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/599732IMG8665.jpg)
I came to similar conclusions as yours. The sound is nasty, a kind of "Maestro FZ-1 eaten by a FuzzRite" or conversely...
As you can see, I added an HI / LO tone filter, allowing to switch instantly to another sound which has more fatness or thickness.
Interesting circuit - I should have look at that way way earlier...
A+!
Quote from: tubelectron on July 30, 2011, 03:53:24 PM
I came to similar conclusions as yours. The sound is nasty, a kind of "Maestro FZ-1 eaten by a FuzzRite" or conversely...
As you can see, I added an HI / LO tone filter, allowing to switch instantly to another sound which has more fatness or thickness.
Interesting circuit - I should have look at that way way earlier...
A+!
That's great ! Weren't you surprised at that sound since it's a Fuzz Face variant with one "big" change....and it's killer that you can get such a loud & nasty sound with lowish hfe ge's.
I would be curious to know what your voltage readings are for Q2.
...and I don't know if you saw that I used this FY-2 structure to alter an actual Fuzz Face in the same manner:
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=92714.0
thanx for reporting the results!
I ended up boxing mine up last week. I really love it. I could have done it with only the volume control but had a fuzzrite circuit in an enclosure that was needing to
be put to sleep. Since I liked the enclosure so much I had to come up with 2 extra controls and ended up adding a 100k fuzz pot (maybe its a 50K?) and a 10k "gain" control on
Q2's emitter. The gain control doesn't do much, as I was scrappin' to finalize it and perf it up. Maybe I'll switch it out for a control on the collector of Q2. It does sound really good. I did a negative ground circuit with a NOS Rca in Q1 and a Valvo AC127, that I ripped out of a radio, in Q2. I have never been able to get a good fuzzrite going but have came close. This thing seems to capture my favorite sounds from my Fuzzrite experiences, though. Thanks again T and L...
Quote from: glops on July 30, 2011, 04:52:12 PM
I ended up boxing mine up last week. I really love it. I could have done it with only the volume control but had a fuzzrite circuit in an enclosure that was needing to
be put to sleep. Since I liked the enclosure so much I had to come up with 2 extra controls and ended up adding a 100k fuzz pot (maybe its a 50K?) and a 10k "gain" control on
Q2's emitter. The gain control doesn't do much, as I was scrappin' to finalize it and perf it up. Maybe I'll switch it out for a control on the collector of Q2.
a very good idea...as I noted earlier, I wanted to make a 2-knobber and for knob 2 I had a choice between the stock fuzz pot & a pot on Q2's collector. There was more variety with Q2 collector so that won out....and I hate turning down the fuzz, anyway....
Quote
and It does sound really good. I did a negative ground circuit with a NOS Rca in Q1 and a Valvo AC127, that I ripped out of a radio, in Q2. I have never been able to get a good fuzzrite going but have came close. This thing seems to capture my favorite sounds from my Fuzzrite experiences, though. Thanks again T and L...
cool!
and what was your Q2 collector voltage?
Quote from: LucifersTrip on July 30, 2011, 10:39:37 PM
and what was your Q2 collector voltage?
Yikes, 3 miserable volts! Definitely going to add an q2 bias pot, guess a 25k will do...
Quote from: LucifersTrip on July 07, 2011, 03:12:11 AM
(http://www.luciferstrip.com/fuzz/fy-2-ge-mod.jpg)
I tried this 100pf on BC of the only transistor in the rangemaster with 100nf input cap. the 100nf input makes fuzz and the 100pf BC makes more fuzz. I have a theory that the 100pf BC wont do anything if you dont have any high frequency harmonics or fuzz in the signal to begin with. I'm using a germanium pnp Hfe 92. its a bitchin 1 transistor fuzz pedal. just wanted to say thanks for the tip and maybe try this 100pf trick on some other fuzz circuits.
Quote from: glops on July 31, 2011, 01:37:22 AM
Quote from: LucifersTrip on July 30, 2011, 10:39:37 PM
and what was your Q2 collector voltage?
Yikes, 3 miserable volts! Definitely going to add an q2 bias pot, guess a 25k will do...
It doesn't matter as long as you like it! ...but it might be cool for you to hear the full range from 3v to 7v before you decide
If you remember my earlier posts, I initially thought it sounded best at 2.2 - 2.4v, but that's because I didn't try the full range yet. After that, I just thought because of the 4.5v "standard" that it'd be the best there...so I hit 4.5v and it was terrible. Then, I increased further and it was the best at 6.7v
Through the full range from 3 - 7v playing chords are good, but the middle range (4 -5.5 ) is a little harsher. The single notes are much better for me at 6v+, the middle is still harsh and it softens a little where you are 3v...but if you go further down to 2v, it will gate just like a FF.
Quote from: EATyourGuitar on July 31, 2011, 02:36:54 AM
Quote from: LucifersTrip on July 07, 2011, 03:12:11 AM
I tried this 100pf on BC of the only transistor in the rangemaster with 100nf input cap. the 100nf input makes fuzz and the 100pf BC makes more fuzz. I have a theory that the 100pf BC wont do anything if you dont have any high frequency harmonics or fuzz in the signal to begin with. I'm using a germanium pnp Hfe 92. its a bitchin 1 transistor fuzz pedal. just wanted to say thanks for the tip and maybe try this 100pf trick on some other fuzz circuits.
That's great...you actually turned a Rangemaster into a fuzz with a BC cap and a larger input cap?
The 100pf on BC is usually used for the opposite. It tames the circuit, gets rid of oscillations, sizzle, fizzle, hiss, unwanted high end, etc...
I'll remember that for my next Rangemaster
Quote from: LucifersTrip on July 31, 2011, 02:38:50 AM
Quote from: glops on July 31, 2011, 01:37:22 AM
Quote from: LucifersTrip on July 30, 2011, 10:39:37 PM
and what was your Q2 collector voltage?
Yikes, 3 miserable volts! Definitely going to add an q2 bias pot, guess a 25k will do...
It doesn't matter as long as you like it! ...but it might be cool for you to hear the full range from 3v to 7v before you decide
If you remember my earlier posts, I initially thought it sounded best at 2.2 - 2.4v, but that's because I didn't try the full range yet. After that, I just thought because of the 4.5v "standard" that it'd be the best there...so I hit 4.5v and it was terrible. Then, I increased further and it was the best at 6.7v
Through the full range from 3 - 7v playing chords are good, but the middle range (4 -5.5 ) is a little harsher. The single notes are much better for me at 6v+, the middle is still harsh and it softens a little where you are 3v...but if you go further down to 2v, it will gate just like a FF.
Took out my gain pot and subbed in a 6.8k plus 20k pot wired as a variable resistor. Sounds better now. It's a great fuzz. Now off to perf a Roland double beat. If you haven't tried that one, it is truly fantastic. I'm using lowish (hfe 100's) RCA germs in it and it's pretty awesome, gonna socket. I have a feeling getting in the 200 hfe range for this one will make this fuzz the end all for me for awhile. Very huge!
@ Lucifer Trips :
QuoteThat's great ! Weren't you surprised at that sound since it's a Fuzz Face variant with one "big" change....and it's killer that you can get such a loud & nasty sound with lowish hfe ge's.
I would be curious to know what your voltage readings are for Q2.
...and I don't know if you saw that I used this FY-2 structure to alter an actual Fuzz Face in the same manner:
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=92714.0
thanx for reporting the results!
"great" is the word - I found it even better sounding than my Ventures 2000 Pound Bee FuzzRite 1590A. I was searching a good fuzz circuit, able to switch from trebly/nasty to fat/thick, to enter into my Melodium box (the white brother of the Atomisor), and I think that it will be this one, even if I am working on a "Muff-Fuzzed" overdrive version...
For sure I will let you know ASAP all the measurements posted on a new schematic (which show very slight corrections), for interpretation.
I saw and recorded your job about FY-2ing the FF, I'll study it more accurately further +++.
A+!
Hi Lucifer Trips,
Here is the updated shematic of my FY-2 Ge trial :
(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/889373FY2GemodifiedBG01082011.jpg)
The values are measured with a Fluke FL87-V DMM vs. GND (+9V).
The 100K resistor in the TONE section is intended to correct the volume in the LO position vs. the HI (original) position.
The 22K resistor across the 47K LOG VOLUME pot is intended to have a correct FX volume level in medium setting vs. the dry volume (FX unengaged).
A very good sounding fuzz, indeed...
A+!
Quote from: LucifersTrip on July 31, 2011, 02:52:16 AM
Quote from: EATyourGuitar on July 31, 2011, 02:36:54 AM
Quote from: LucifersTrip on July 07, 2011, 03:12:11 AM
I tried this 100pf on BC of the only transistor in the rangemaster with 100nf input cap. the 100nf input makes fuzz and the 100pf BC makes more fuzz. I have a theory that the 100pf BC wont do anything if you dont have any high frequency harmonics or fuzz in the signal to begin with. I'm using a germanium pnp Hfe 92. its a bitchin 1 transistor fuzz pedal. just wanted to say thanks for the tip and maybe try this 100pf trick on some other fuzz circuits.
That's great...you actually turned a Rangemaster into a fuzz with a BC cap and a larger input cap?
The 100pf on BC is usually used for the opposite. It tames the circuit, gets rid of oscillations, sizzle, fizzle, hiss, unwanted high end, etc...
I'll remember that for my next Rangemaster
I ripped it out of the breadboard cause It didn't have enough sustain for what I like. you might like it though. very natural dynamics. I had a 10nf on the out cap.
Quote from: tubelectron on July 31, 2011, 09:13:41 AM
Hi Lucifer Trips,
Here is the updated shematic of my FY-2 Ge trial :
The values are measured with a Fluke FL87-V DMM vs. GND (+9V).
The 100K resistor in the TONE section is intended to correct the volume in the LO position vs. the HI (original) position.
The 22K resistor across the 47K LOG VOLUME pot is intended to have a correct FX volume level in medium setting vs. the dry volume (FX unengaged).
A very good sounding fuzz, indeed...
A+!
Excellent...It's good to have another variation on record.
It looks like the biggest differences are your choices of the Q1B > Q2E resistor (which you've gone out of the stock 1K - 51K range), and you decided on Q2C voltage ~ 4.5V
Before you decided on 4.5v, did you try single notes and chords at 2.5V, 4.5v, 6.5v ?
thanx for posting the schematic
Hi Lucifer Trips,
When it comes to transistors, my knowledge faints... Unless like with tubes, where I have the means to be more rational - at least - at the start of a project.
QuoteIt looks like the biggest differences are your choices of the Q1B > Q2E resistor (which you've gone out of the stock 1K - 51K range),
I apologize, I don't see neatly what do you mean there (remember that my native language is French...) ???
QuoteBefore you decided on 4.5v, did you try single notes and chords at 2.5V, 4.5v, 6.5v ?
In fact, I decided... Nothing based on measurements ! I plugged the unit (ES-335, Boogie MKIIA clean, any pickups, chords, bends and so on...) and made trails with decade boxes to see how the circuit behaves, took notes, with some target on mind, indeed :
1 - I didn't wanted that fuzz to "gate" in any way, simply because while experimenting, I found it unpleasant sounding.
2 - I wanted no fuzz control, and a high fuzz level.
3 - That fuzz must be thick, regular, and with a smooth regularly vanishing decay (no desaturation).
4 - I wanted also a good sustain.
5 - I wanted balanced 2 tone facility : "trebly" and "thick".
So here's what I have done, in summary :
- having the maximum fuzz implied for me to have the feedback resistor maxxed, but avoiding any gating - in the range 10k - 1M, 100K was right.
- RE of Q1 is 1K. I shorted it, the tone changed to more gritty, but not nicer and not real difference in sustain. Even with variying RC Q1 (22K, 100K).
- similar conclusion with RE Q2, as RE Q1. These 2 stock values are right.
- increasing RC (100K) Q1 leaves a gating effect, decreasing (22K) gives less fuzz density.
- RC Q2 was chosen in the range 4K7 to 100K and the best sounding value is 12K, not 10K nor 15K (you've put an adjustable here, it's not surprising) to follow the criterias mentioned above.
- the TONE circuit was determined only by ear, HI-LO balancing level included. Hi is the stock position. LO reinstates bass.
It's rather empirical... But the compromise found works, at least for me !
A+!
Hi - that's done !
Here's the MELODIUM FUZZ, based on the modified FY-2 that I posted the schematic before :
(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/842102IMG8683.jpg)
(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/301190IMG8685.jpg)
(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/928516IMG8687.jpg)
(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/172848IMG8671.jpg)
Thanks Lucifer Trips et. all. to have started that Ge FY-2 topic, otherwise I think that the original schematic I had would be sleeping again... An I would missed the occasion to build a very good fuzz.
So come on, let's fuzz again !
A+!
Hey guys
Check out how similar this (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/rnfr/easternblocdiy/russianschems1.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1) circuit from Russia is to the germ FY-2 (bottom right).
The first transistor is biased differently, it's 18V, and there is an added BMP style tone stack, but the basic circuit is similar. Oh, and no feedback resistor.
Anyway just thought this was kind of cool and ya'll would find it interesting.
By the way tubelectron, I love your build. It looks great!
Thanks jrod !
Yes, indeed - on the book picture, we recognize a FF-like at bottom left, and a kind of Ge FY-2 Si-ized or a simili-Foxey Lady early style... Curious... Why not ?
A+!
T'emploi des "affichages" drôles. Très "steampunk"! :icon_lol:
"Démarrage", for the non-French speaking among you, would be akin to "launch", "ignition". When you put the key into the ignition of a car you "démarre" it.
Quote from: tubelectron on August 02, 2011, 03:33:50 AM
QuoteIt looks like the biggest differences are your choices of the Q1B > Q2E resistor (which you've gone out of the stock 1K - 51K range),
I apologize, I don't see neatly what do you mean there (remember that my native language is French...) ???
Quote
I was just remarking that you used a 100K resistor between Q1 base and Q2 emitter when the original schematic has a range of 1K - 51K with the Fuzz pot. I was surprised since I got the best fuzz at around 30K and when I increased to 50K and higher the fuzz was not nearly as good.
Before you decided on 4.5v, did you try single notes and chords at 2.5V, 4.5v, 6.5v ?
In fact, I decided... Nothing based on measurements ! I plugged the unit (ES-335, Boogie MKIIA clean, any pickups, chords, bends and so on...) and made trails with decade boxes to see how the circuit behaves, took notes, with some target on mind, indeed.
So here's what I have done, in summary :
- having the maximum fuzz implied for me to have the feedback resistor maxxed, but avoiding any gating - in the range 10k - 1M, 100K was right.
- RE of Q1 is 1K. I shorted it, the tone changed to more gritty, but not nicer and not real difference in sustain. Even with variying RC Q1 (22K, 100K).
- similar conclusion with RE Q2, as RE Q1. These 2 stock values are right.
- increasing RC (100K) Q1 leaves a gating effect, decreasing (22K) gives less fuzz density.
- RC Q2 was chosen in the range 4K7 to 100K and the best sounding value is 12K, not 10K nor 15K (you've put an adjustable here, it's not surprising) to follow the criterias mentioned above.
- the TONE circuit was determined only by ear, HI-LO balancing level included. Hi is the stock position. LO reinstates bass.
It's rather empirical... But the compromise found works, at least for me !
A+!
Quote
That sounds very cool. I also try to shoot for a similar criteria as your #1-5 above. Though, I see our biggest difference is your preference for thicker fuzz and I usually choose a buzzing fuzz...though, as you wrote, I did make RC Q2 adjustable so I have both.
So, you tuned it to your liking by ear and came up with 12K, which is almost precisely 4.5v on Q2 collector!! If I made RC Q2 12K with my configuration, I would probably wind up with ~ 4 - 5v on the Q2 collector as you have, since for me 8v is 5K and 2.5v is 25K.
But the 22K R across the 47K vol pot should make it much more trebly than mine...that's pretty much the same as a 15K pot? How about a 20K vol pot with 60K resistor across? Wouldn't the sweep be a little better...
thanx again for the report
@Mark Hammer,
QuoteT'emploi des "affichages" drôles. Très "steampunk"!
"Démarrage", for the non-French speaking among you, would be akin to "launch", "ignition". When you put the key into the ignition of a car you "démarre" it.
Good, Mark - many French native people are
unable to write the French like you do (even counting with the incorrect spelling here : Tu emploies)...
Yes, "Démarrage" is to be interpreted exactly as you mean, as this label was on the electrical cabinet of a 8-in-line diesel engine from the "Compagnie des Moteurs CONTINENTAL - Avenue Lacassagne - Lyon 8ème - France", which was intended to power (in emergency case) a cable-car of the 60's, long-forgotten and competely dismantled now... Very unfortunately, I could not snag the CONTINENTAL label, which was a small nice bronze die-cast plate. It would have been very nice on a pedal. I was young, it was in 1978 or so...
@Lucifer Trips,
QuoteThat sounds very cool. I also try to shoot for a similar criteria as your #1-5 above. Though, I see our biggest difference is your preference for thicker fuzz and I usually choose a buzzing fuzz...though, as you wrote, I did make RC Q2 adjustable so I have both.
Buzzing fuzz... means DZZZZZ ? OK, I think I see - my version here then is more GRRRRR... I you see what I mean too ! Just for the occasion and if you have the time to, have a look to my
The MinuteMan Fuzz topic (if it's not already done) and have a try : it's a simple unit and any lo-Hfe Si Q would work, even if the 2N1613 is great... And let me know your advice on "thickness" or "buzzing" then ! I have sometimes problems with vocabulary related to distortion - for example the difference between "fizz" and "buzz"...
S'pas ?QuoteBut the 22K R across the 47K vol pot should make it much more trebly than mine...that's pretty much the same as a 15K pot? How about a 20K vol pot with 60K resistor across? Wouldn't the sweep be a little better...
Yes, probably, but not so much I think - I added the 22K resistor only for a personal trick : having the correct average output level with the average position of the pot, nothing more...
But yes, it's very trebly, piercing fuzz like that, and the LO position makes it very different, in a kind of FF way, without the mud and fart - and this just at the stomp of a FSW.
A+!
Quote from: tubelectron on August 05, 2011, 10:31:19 AM
@Mark Hammer,
QuoteT'emploi des "affichages" drôles. Très "steampunk"!
"Démarrage", for the non-French speaking among you, would be akin to "launch", "ignition". When you put the key into the ignition of a car you "démarre" it.
Good, Mark - many French native people are unable to write the French like you do (even counting with the incorrect spelling here : Tu emploies)...
Chalice!! (Merde! pour nos cousins continentales) Vous avez raison. C'est pourquoi je ne vais pas reussir mon éxamen de deuxième langue. Malheureusement, mon fils a perdu mon Bescherelle bien-aimé. :icon_sad:
Merçi bien de vos compliments. I am a beneficiary of governmental
formation linguistique. I used to engage in more conversation with my Francophone colleagues, but of late have been reduced to writing apologetic notes to angry people on behalf of my manager, whose English is poor, let alone his French. I have to "vouvoye" a lot, and have become
quite diplomatic in my phrasing. :icon_wink:
There are probably many surplus places that have old equipment with similar kinds of labels that can be used on pedals to add some professional-looking "mystery" to them.
Excellent, Mark ! Looking at your profile, I saw that you were from Ottawa, Canada, not so far from the Quebec region when French remains spoken...
Tout s'explique !QuoteThere are probably many surplus places that have old equipment with similar kinds of labels that can be used on pedals to add some professional-looking "mystery" to them.
to add some professional-looking "mystery" to them : exactly - I would even add "history" (like the "DEMARRAGE" plate from this abandoned cable-car). And it turned to be a good way for me to achieve the decorum of my stomboxes, by the way : no need to invoke uselessly the God of Paint, only mechanical skillness and certainity.
A+!
Quote from: tubelectron on August 05, 2011, 10:31:19 AM
@Lucifer Trips,
QuoteThat sounds very cool. I also try to shoot for a similar criteria as your #1-5 above. Though, I see our biggest difference is your preference for thicker fuzz and I usually choose a buzzing fuzz...though, as you wrote, I did make RC Q2 adjustable so I have both.
Buzzing fuzz... means DZZZZZ ? OK, I think I see - my version here then is more GRRRRR... I you see what I mean too ! Just for the occasion and if you have the time to, have a look to my The MinuteMan Fuzz topic (if it's not already done) and have a try : it's a simple unit and any lo-Hfe Si Q would work, even if the 2N1613 is great... And let me know your advice on "thickness" or "buzzing" then ! I have sometimes problems with vocabulary related to distortion - for example the difference between "fizz" and "buzz"... S'pas ?
Everybody's definition is different for buzz, fizz, grrr, etc....it's is too hard to communicate without sound....but the buzzing fuzz I was referring to for this is closer to a fat 60's bumblebee...not a thick, saturated fuzz...and not metallic and clangy (which I got at 4.5v)
Funny, I did breadboard your MinuteMan Fuzz a short time after you posted, but I got a dull, muddy sound. I looked at the schematic very quickly (and forgot what you wrote) and in my mind I just assumed since this thread was germanium that your MinuteMan was also germanium...and you used 2N1613, but in my mind I was thinking the classic 2N2613.
Anyway, after I checked the voltages and realized they were way off, I looked at the schematic more carefully and saw my mistake.
I'll switch the transistors to silicon soon and let you know...
Ah, yes, LuciferTrips,
The Minuteman Fuzz is an all-around design for all-around transistors - a Ge conversion is certainly doable, with some tweaking - a good idea to dig with AC127 (NPN Ge) or AC128 (PNP Ge, reverting the polarity of the supply) or any other Ge available... Notably russian ones : have you any experience about soviet transistors, by the way ?
Nonetheless, thanks for your trial details in the Minuteman Fuzz post +++
A+!
Quote from: tubelectron on August 16, 2011, 04:43:50 AM
Ah, yes, LuciferTrips,
The Minuteman Fuzz is an all-around design for all-around transistors - a Ge conversion is certainly doable, with some tweaking - a good idea to dig with AC127 (NPN Ge) or AC128 (PNP Ge, reverting the polarity of the supply) or any other Ge available... Notably russian ones : have you any experience about soviet transistors, by the way ?
yes, the Russian I've used have very low leakage. They do not have as soft or mushy a sound as US and Japanese ones...so not the best for a warm sounding Fuzz Face, but still can sound very good. I find they are better used in a Fuzz Rite variant or a booster like the Rangemaster.
Quote
Nonetheless, thanks for your trial details in the Minuteman Fuzz post +++
A+!
It's fun! I always like trying new variations of fuzz
thanx
Quoteyes, the Russian I've used have very low leakage. They do not have as soft or mushy a sound as US and Japanese ones...so not the best for a warm sounding Fuzz Face, but still can sound very good. I find they are better used in a Fuzz Rite variant or a booster like the Rangemaster.
Ah, OK -
what were the russian model refs you used ? Most of my Ge are NOS European (AC125,6,7,8, AC132, 141,180,87,88...ASY27...) and so I was thinking about buying some CCCP models.
A+!
Quote from: tubelectron on August 19, 2011, 04:27:29 AM
Quoteyes, the Russian I've used have very low leakage. They do not have as soft or mushy a sound as US and Japanese ones...so not the best for a warm sounding Fuzz Face, but still can sound very good. I find they are better used in a Fuzz Rite variant or a booster like the Rangemaster.
Ah, OK - what were the russian model refs you used ? Most of my Ge are NOS European (AC125,6,7,8, AC132, 141,180,87,88...ASY27...) and so I was thinking about buying some CCCP models.
A+!
I've recently used P416B & 1T308B. Both hfe's ~ 50-90. If you want to do a FF/variant with them, you can still get a warm sound if only used for Q1 with Jap, US, Euro for Q2