Ok, ive got a pnp germnium here.
Q1
C: 8.9
B: 9
E: 9
Q2
C:4.82
B:8.9
E:9
What's going on here friends?
Am getting a sound, and it is fuzz, but i have to turn up to 11 to hear it. on the amp and the gat
I think you are missing a ground trace.
Q1 Collector should be around 1 volt.
And the emitter should be 0v as well as
Q2s emitter.
Are you measuring from ground to each transistor's
leg or from -9v. Red battery should be ground and where
your meter probe red should be. The black probe should be
on the transistor leg.
John
Quote from: John Lyons on August 15, 2011, 10:54:01 PM
I think you are missing a ground trace.
Q1 Collector should be around 1 volt.
And the emitter should be 0v as well as
Q2s emitter.
Are you measuring from ground to each transistor's
leg or from -9v. Red battery should be ground and where
your meter probe red should be. The black probe should be
on the transistor leg.
John
Oohh, Ok i might just try that again. I had black to neg on batt, and was using red probe to mesure
ok. NEW MESURMENTS
Q1:
c 1.8
b 0
e 0
Q2:
C 4.15
B 1.8
e 0
Looking better. :D
I misspoke on Q2 emitter. It should not be zero but some voltage.
Q1 base should be at least some voltage. Check your soldering, may be a short
between base and emitter.
should i be getting any volts on the input? Not getting aything on ether side of the cap
Quote from: MrTonesNZ on August 15, 2011, 11:51:01 PM
should i be getting any volts on the input? Not getting aything on ether side of the cap
Yes, the other side of the input cap = Q1 base.
Here are some sample voltages from GGG:
Q1 Collector 1.4v
Base 0.6v
Emitter 0.0v
Q2 Collector 4.5v
Base 1.4v
Emitter 0.8v
Need a schematic reference, say PNP pos Gnd. [standard for Ge's..
The black wire should be the 'supply' wire
the + side of the battery should connect to 'Gnd.' with +Gnd. FF, best way is to follow through with the DMM, test that the +pole of the battery connects where 9V+ is shown.
Here's the schematic i'm using.
(http://www.muzique.com/lab/fuzzface6.gif)
I'm getting 0. volts on the input, and i think that could be the problem. But what is my solution????
Fixed the bias a bit, and that rectified volume a wee bit, but still very quiet. However when plugged in front of another pedal (doesn't have to be turned on) It's like the most discustingly amazing fuzz tones I've ever heard. I keep having this same problem time and time again and I can't understand why! Driving me completely mental :'( I've even managed to bias it to the general guitar gadgets specs, and still get quiet. Is it normal for a FF to have such a volume drop? Or am i still screwing it up? And since i love the tone so much after an effect, is that because the other pedal is acting as some kind of buffer? If so, i may try to attach an input buffer. Somebody please put me out of my misery :(
That's a positive ground circuit. You should have negative voltages, not positive I believe.
Quote from: aron on August 17, 2011, 06:09:19 AM
That's a positive ground circuit. You should have negative voltages, not positive I believe.
Not if the red probe is connected to pos-gnd. I get negitive volt's if i do it the other way, it's just the same except with"-" next to it. That sound right to everyone else?
Quote from: aron on August 17, 2011, 06:09:19 AM
That's a positive ground circuit. You should have negative voltages, not positive I believe.
Sorry Aron, You obviously know what you're talking about, was i right about wht i've said though?
Just going by what john said
Yes. If you flip the probes, you should get the same numbers just with a negative sign in front of them. So that's not really a problem. But, technically, they should be negative numbers.
-Joe Hart
Quote from: MrTonesNZ on August 16, 2011, 09:40:51 PM
Here's the schematic i'm using.
Output cap should be .01µF instead of .1µF, but that's not related to the volume issue..
Quote from: Electric Warrior on August 17, 2011, 06:55:57 AM
Quote from: MrTonesNZ on August 16, 2011, 09:40:51 PM
Here's the schematic i'm using.
Output cap should be .01µF instead of .1µF, but that's not related to the volume issue..
Yea i've noticed that looking at other schematics, what difference DOES it make?
Output cap (and input cap) alters the frequencies that are let through the circuit. Tone shaping.
-Joe Hart
Quote from: MrTonesNZ on August 17, 2011, 07:03:30 AM
Quote from: Electric Warrior on August 17, 2011, 06:55:57 AM
Quote from: MrTonesNZ on August 16, 2011, 09:40:51 PM
Here's the schematic i'm using.
Output cap should be .01µF instead of .1µF, but that's not related to the volume issue..
Yea i've noticed that looking at other schematics, what difference DOES it make?
the larger, the more bass...but back to the problem...you wrote: "I've even managed to bias it to the general guitar gadgets specs, and still get quiet. "
Do you now have near correct values for voltages on Q1 & Q2 ? You no longer have 0 on both sides of the input cap?
AC across a capacitor will see' an increase impedance as frequency drops...ie that cap is a HP filter, the highs get through unimpeded, or relatively unimpeded, the lower frequencies less so or low frequencies = none.
Smaller value cap there will let a smaller proportiion of lows through.
Make sure the + button on the battery will follow/connect to Gnd. as shown. The - from the battery goes to the 'top' power rail .The voltage polarities during measurement then don't 'matter' [if they're correct], the ground rail being the reference and voltage measurements being proportions that matter...the _ on the DMM screen can be or not...[the voltages can be measured 'backwards'] or just invert the probes.
Quote from: LucifersTrip on August 17, 2011, 07:16:41 AM
Quote from: MrTonesNZ on August 17, 2011, 07:03:30 AM
Quote from: Electric Warrior on August 17, 2011, 06:55:57 AM
Quote from: MrTonesNZ on August 16, 2011, 09:40:51 PM
Here's the schematic i'm using.
Output cap should be .01µF instead of .1µF, but that's not related to the volume issue..
Yea i've noticed that looking at other schematics, what difference DOES it make?
the larger, the more bass...but back to the problem...you wrote: "I've even managed to bias it to the general guitar gadgets specs, and still get quiet. "
Do you now have near correct values for voltages on Q1 & Q2 ? You no longer have 0 on both sides of the input cap?
Correct! Replaced the 8k resistor with a 100kpot, huge i know but it's the lowest i have on hand, also realised that i was bypassing the 22uf cap, but i fixed that. And with the 100kpot managed to dial up almost perfect GGG specs. Did help the Vol a wee bit, and with the amp cranked i got an "ok" tone, but got nothing with guitar vol below 8.
Quote from: LucifersTrip on August 17, 2011, 07:16:41 AM
Quote from: MrTonesNZ on August 17, 2011, 07:03:30 AM
Quote from: Electric Warrior on August 17, 2011, 06:55:57 AM
Quote from: MrTonesNZ on August 16, 2011, 09:40:51 PM
Here's the schematic i'm using.
Output cap should be .01µF instead of .1µF, but that's not related to the volume issue..
Yea i've noticed that looking at other schematics, what difference DOES it make?
the larger, the more bass...but back to the problem...you wrote: "I've even managed to bias it to the general guitar gadgets specs, and still get quiet. "
Do you now have near correct values for voltages on Q1 & Q2 ? You no longer have 0 on both sides of the input cap?
Correct! Replaced the 8k resistor with a 100kpot, huge i know but it's the lowest i have on hand, also realised that i was bypassing the 22uf cap, but i fixed that. And with the 100kpot managed to dial up almost perfect GGG specs. Did help the Vol a wee bit, and with the amp cranked i got an "ok" tone, but got nothing with guitar vol below 8.
nothing? how do you mean? does it cut out or clean up?
Quote from: petemoore on August 17, 2011, 07:17:32 AM
AC across a capacitor will see' an increase impedance as frequency drops...ie that cap is a HP filter, the highs get through unimpeded, or relatively unimpeded, the lower frequencies less so or low frequencies = none.
Smaller value cap there will let a smaller proportiion of lows through.
Make sure the + button on the battery will follow/connect to Gnd. as shown. The - from the battery goes to the 'top' power rail .The voltage polarities during measurement then don't 'matter' [if they're correct], the ground rail being the reference and voltage measurements being proportions that matter...the _ on the DMM screen can be or not...[the voltages can be measured 'backwards'] or just invert the probes.
Yea thanks pete. But i'm 99% sure ive grounded right. As i say, this is attempt 3.
Ive got the "-" of the power supply connected between to the resistors on the top left, and all the ground points are attached to "+" And I've checked several times that my Caps are orientated correctly.
Quote from: Electric Warrior on August 17, 2011, 07:34:57 AM
nothing? how do you mean? does it cut out or clean up?
Cuts out, Or is very faint, and sputtlery
In general the volume is significantly low comared to bypassed signal
Volume pot wired backwards or wrong taper ???
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on August 17, 2011, 07:52:30 AM
Volume pot wired backwards or wrong taper ???
Haven't even got a vol on it. Just straight out. Shouldn't be a problem should it?
Hold up, just cheaked levels again.
This is what im getting, after tweaking.
Q1
c 4.9
b .14
e.0
Q2
c4.7
b 4.9
e 4.7
Q2's Collecter seems to like it around 6, i get twice the volume. But still same problem, hardly anything with gat vol @8. So sorry, not quite GGG specs. Q1s collecter seems rather high, is this my problem? How can i wind it down? I tried upping the 33k, to 100k, which got it to arround 3, but i diddn't notice any significant change in sound, so i went back.
Anyway. It's 4.10am, i'm clinicly insane, no state for building fuzz faces :icon_eek:
Start from the basics. Is the transistor oriented properly?
Quote from: MrTonesNZ on August 17, 2011, 12:10:06 PM
Q1
c 4.9
b .14
e.0
Q2
c4.7
b 4.9
e 4.7
Q2's Collecter seems to like it around 6
thoough, you wrote 4.7 above. +1 to aron's comment above...and it looks like you needed to sleep on this one and start fresh the next day. before you start upping the 33K, just try to sort out the voltages first.
the FF works very well the way it was designed. the only thing you need to tweak at first is the 8.2K. you said you were using a 100K pot there. what's the pot value when you hit 4.5v on Q2's collector? You should get somewhat close to the 8.2k (say, 4 - 15k). if you're too far off (and your wiring is correct), it would be time to try different transistors
Trying to find a data sheet for my B172's, can't find one. But theres a circle, and above that theres a circle with an "A" inside it. This should be the emmitter right?
Get a DMM with 'hfe checker' [they don't test for leakage], stuff the three transistor leads in the four holes provided [so it's easier to get any orientation/pinout going] every way possible until a ballpark Hfe reading shows on the DMM screen. Draw the pinout [E C B markings on the DMM] on paper showing the orientation of the transistor mark/pinout.
It will only show a reasonable Hfe on one side or the other [PNP or NPN], when this happens, not only the pinout but the transistor polarity is shown and can be copied from the DMM markings the transistor pins are in.
Choose appropriate schematic, PNP...Positive Ground [if using PNP transistor].
To test for leakage and see other Rangemaster bias information, check out GEO.
Quote from: MrTonesNZ on August 18, 2011, 07:36:50 AM
Trying to find a data sheet for my B172's, can't find one. But theres a circle, and above that theres a circle with an "A" inside it. This should be the emmitter right?
If it is a 2SB172 transistor in the TO-5 metal can, then the leg that is closest to the little metal tab on the side of the can is the Emitter.
Google is your friend.... ::)
Quote from: petemoore on August 18, 2011, 08:03:02 AM
Get a DMM with 'hfe checker' [they don't test for leakage], stuff the three transistor leads in the four holes provided [so it's easier to get any orientation/pinout going] every way possible until a ballpark Hfe reading shows on the DMM screen. Draw the pinout [E C B markings on the DMM] on paper showing the orientation of the transistor mark/pinout.
It will only show a reasonable Hfe on one side or the other [PNP or NPN], when this happens, not only the pinout but the transistor polarity is shown and can be copied from the DMM markings the transistor pins are in.
Choose appropriate schematic, PNP...Positive Ground [if using PNP transistor].
To test for leakage and see other Rangemaster bias information, check out GEO.
Thankyou pete, took me a step further. I feel stupid as!
So i had the transistors in backwards :icon_redface: ....shame.....
Sound has cleared up a lot! and pedal no longer interacts with my other pedals, happy about that! And i now get a sound with vol rolled down
But!.. Still pretty quiet, and i get a sort of low pitched RF hum when im not playing, sort of kicks in after a few seconds.
And also, i noticed it takes 530k to get collector (the
real collector) down to 4.5. Thought that was strange.
Is a volume drop common with fuzz curcuits? thought it was meant to boost?
Happy with the sound though :)
Quote from: LucifersTrip on August 17, 2011, 05:08:18 PM
Quote from: MrTonesNZ on August 17, 2011, 12:10:06 PM
Q1
c 4.9
b .14
e.0
Q2
c4.7
b 4.9
e 4.7
Q2's Collecter seems to like it around 6
thoough, you wrote 4.7 above. +1 to aron's comment above...and it looks like you needed to sleep on this one and start fresh the next day. before you start upping the 33K, just try to sort out the voltages first.
the FF works very well the way it was designed. the only thing you need to tweak at first is the 8.2K. you said you were using a 100K pot there. what's the pot value when you hit 4.5v on Q2's collector? You should get somewhat close to the 8.2k (say, 4 - 15k). if you're too far off (and your wiring is correct), it would be time to try different transistors
So it takes 530k to get q2s collector to 4.5. New Transistors you think?
Q2 collector generally biases with it's Rbias resistor in a range between 5k6 and 18k. 530k is well outside that range.
Another issue is pulling the circuits output collector voltage up.
Start with testing for common ground nodes, work up to emitters measuring the R values between the nodes.
If reverse polarity was applied to a polarized cap, replace it.
The - mark of a capacitor always to the most - side of it's position in the circuit.
Quote from: petemoore on August 18, 2011, 09:50:43 AM
Q2 collector generally biases with it's Rbias resistor in a range between 5k6 and 18k. 530k is well outside that range.
Another issue is pulling the circuits output collector voltage up.
Start with testing for common ground nodes, work up to emitters measuring the R values between the nodes.
If reverse polarity was applied to a polarized cap, replace it.
The - mark of a capacitor always to the most - side of it's position in the circuit.
So i fick my DMM to measure resistance?
Sorry could you clarify this for me? I'm still new to this, only bought my DMM about a month ago. Thankyou so much for your help ;)