Hi guys!
I ve the some problem of most of you, i ve a mxr flanger clone with a bad sad1024 probably. I ve decided after many years to' resuscitate it...i ve bought a mn3007 and i build a daughterboard following the layout founded here..
I ve seen the new Schematic to fill mn3007, but im not surehow to' link daughterboard to' mxr pcb...someone could explain it a little more simplified..?
Thank you in advance!
I drew a schematic for an MXR flanger retrofit with MN3007... but I don't know what daughterboard you're talking about.
Anyway, you should have 6 connections:
db in to SAD's pin 2
db out to SAD's pin 11 or 12 (watch out MN needs a pull-up resistor to Vcc, you'll want the 20k level trimmer DC decoupled)
db +V to SAD's pin 7
db GND to SAD's pin 1
db clock1 to SAD's pin 8 or 10
db clock2 to SAD's pin 3 or 14
Tank u Fender !
I ve used this board
http://thmq.mysteria.cz/em3007/PCB_v0_1_layout_1200DPI.png
I think it Will fit with your instruction, right!?:)
Uhm i ve 7 connections, not6!
Vcca & vccb...
you can connect them both toghether with +V
Fede ma sei italiano?! :icon_biggrin:
Quote from: Fender3D on September 07, 2011, 05:33:03 PM
db out to SAD's pin 11 or 12 (watch out MN needs a pull-up resistor to Vcc, you'll want the 20k level trimmer DC decoupled)
Could you explain this a bit?
Is this incorporated in the retrofit layout that is linked above?
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on September 07, 2011, 07:15:13 PM
Quote from: Fender3D on September 07, 2011, 05:33:03 PM
db out to SAD's pin 11 or 12 (watch out MN needs a pull-up resistor to Vcc, you'll want the 20k level trimmer DC decoupled)
Could you explain this a bit?
Is this incorporated in the retrofit layout that is linked above?
Same question
Edit
Given retrofit schema:
(http://thmq.mysteria.cz/em3007/em9v_sad_repl_v0_1.gif)
Full thread: http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=78270.0 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=78270.0)
Federico's note is correct but does not apply here, because there is an output buffer (Q1) yet. On the other hand it requires "pull-down" resistor at the output (e.g. 10k to the ground as in EM, which is this retrofit mainly designed for), completing Q1 output buffer (simple emitter follower (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_collector)). MXR Flanger's 22k trimmer will do too.
Quote from: slash_83 on September 08, 2011, 03:26:43 AM
However this board IS NOT CORRECT :
R3 value is not 1k but 14k,the resistance in the upper part of the board
It's R2 not R3. Layout should be correct.
T.
Thank for ur explanation,
So, can i use this board following Federico's reply?!
To minimise danger of possible confusion let me rephrase Federico's post - for this retrofit (db) it's:
db IN to SAD's pin 2
db OUT to SAD's pin 11 or 12
db VCCa + VCCb to SAD's pin 7
db GND to SAD's pin 1
db CLK+ (or CLK-) to SAD's pin 8 or 10
db CLK- (or CLK+) to SAD's pin 3 or 14
Good luck, T.
PS: Please, if you will finish it, let us know how do you like etc. I'm curious how it will perform in MXR Flanger - thanks!
PS2: 4049N does not mean non-bufferred here (try both variants if you can, but I'd prefer bufferred version) - it's just leftover from some Eagle coding (same applies for 2N3904L btw.).
I'm gonna be that guy... 8)
Does anyone have a PDF file for the PCB layout? Something that can be used for toner transfer.
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on September 08, 2011, 08:54:14 AM
I'm gonna be that guy... 8)
Cool! :)
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on September 08, 2011, 08:54:14 AM
Does anyone have a PDF file for the PCB layout? Something that can be used for toner transfer.
..of my retrofit? PCB_v0_1_1200DPI.png (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/em3007/PCB_v0_1_1200DPI.png) / PCB_v0_1_1200DPI_mirror.png (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/em3007/PCB_v0_1_1200DPI_mirror.png) should be printed in proper dimensions if good picture viewer (e.g. IrfanView for Windows) is used for printing - it is set inside the picture that it's resolution is 1200DPI.
For double-checking physical dimensions of the PCB are:
26 x 37 mm; 1.0 x 1.5 inches Good luck to you too, T. :)
Sorry mates just awake... it's been a looooooooooooooooooooooooong nite tonite...................
BTW ciao slash_83 Biella here...
here's my schematic http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=79154.msg652910 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=79154.msg652910), it's basically the same Tomas' stuff, I didn't use 4049, C3, DC filters, and used a slightly different bias control.
Both will achieve the same goal.
Quote
Could you explain this a bit?
Is this incorporated in the retrofit layout that is linked above?
long story short:
the main difference between SAD1024 and MN3007 is the former being a N-channel silicon gate BBD while MN's P-channel
Their output MOSs Drains (?) are connected to Vdd which is positive for SAD and negative for MN.
their Sources (?) must be negative for SAD and positive for MN (pull-down resistor / pull-up resistor).
Tomas' board has R4 as pull-up resistor, then buffered. Q1 will need a pull-down resistor, MXR's trimmer will do just this.
Ok guys, thank you both for ur explanations.
Im waiting for mn3007, im counting down,db is ready. When i ll do it i ll post my impressions.
Now i ve an eh deluxe electric mistress stock ( i ve only change ceramic caps with film caps)
I ll do a comparation
Quote from: Fender3D on September 08, 2011, 09:20:23 AM
Sorry mates just awake... it's been a looooooooooooooooooooooooong nite tonite...................
BTW ciao slash_83 Biella here...
How many hours of Time zone there Are between Biella and Messina!?!?! ahahah ;)
:icon_mrgreen: lol waiting for the Bridge... :icon_mrgreen:
I used Tomas MN3007 daughterboard as is, hooked up just as he mentions above- sounds great ;) Takes a little fiddling with the timing cap (C21 on the vintage schem), though- I wound up with a nominal 22pF. Even then it takes some careful trim adjustments to eliminate a "bouncy" sound on the bottom of the sweep- but this might be true of SAD versions as well...
Today i ve tried to' change all opamp i ve used all tl082 new.
Finally sound from guitar go throught effect and exit to' amp ; probably some bad ic stopped signal before.
I ve not connected mn3007 cause im waiting for yet.
It mounted sad1024.. No effect..sound exit without any modification.
I think that,sad excluded, the rest of circuit is ready to' rock!
Am i right?!
Tl082. X 4. Are good to' make oscillation for the bbd?!
Sorry for my english and for my bad explanation, but i think u could understand what i mean! :)
Only U5 will oscillate (LFO), other IC are just filters or buffers.
1458 (4558 either) is a "stupider" op amp than 0x2 series ... it will oscillate for sure and should be cheaper...
you may use 5532 or 072 for filter (lesser noise).
hook an LED + 4k resistor from U5's pin 1 or 7 and GND to check LFO (speed LED)
Quote from: jdub on September 08, 2011, 09:56:56 PM
I used Tomas MN3007 daughterboard as is, hooked up just as he mentions above- sounds great ;)
Nice, thanks! :)
Quote from: jdub on September 08, 2011, 09:56:56 PM
Takes a little fiddling with the timing cap (C21 on the vintage schem), though- I wound up with a nominal 22pF. Even then it takes some careful trim adjustments to eliminate a "bouncy" sound on the bottom of the sweep- but this might be true of SAD versions as well...
Probably yes..
even I'd have to at least hear it to be able to understand what's going on.. post sample if you want to elaborate it more.. Cheers, T.
I ve checked it!!!
I think is ok
It lamps more quickly as i turned cw speed pot, but i ve noticed that a500k pot is not so good.. There is not excursion to' calibrate speed very well!
Quote from: Thomeeque on September 09, 2011, 09:17:48 AM
Quote from: jdub on September 08, 2011, 09:56:56 PM
I used Tomas MN3007 daughterboard as is, hooked up just as he mentions above- sounds great ;)
Nice, thanks! :)
Quote from: jdub on September 08, 2011, 09:56:56 PM
Takes a little fiddling with the timing cap (C21 on the vintage schem), though- I wound up with a nominal 22pF. Even then it takes some careful trim adjustments to eliminate a "bouncy" sound on the bottom of the sweep- but this might be true of SAD versions as well...
Probably yes.. even I'd have to at least hear it to be able to understand what's going on.. post sample if you want to elaborate it more..
Cheers, T.
Actually, Tomas, thank
you for the excellent daughterboard layout ;) Beautiful work. Also, the "rubbery" sweep thing on the MXR is discussed here http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=78741.0 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=78741.0). Apparently, this is common when the controls are maxxed out (especially regen and manual) and
not specific to a 3007 retrofit.
Quote from: Fender3D on September 09, 2011, 07:48:00 AM
Only U5 will oscillate (LFO), other IC are just filters or buffers.
1458 (4558 either) is a "stupider" op amp than 0x2 series ... it will oscillate for sure and should be cheaper...
you may use 5532 or 072 for filter (lesser noise).
hook an LED + 4k resistor from U5's pin 1 or 7 and GND to check LFO (speed LED)
Quote from: slash_83 on September 09, 2011, 10:28:02 AM
I ve checked it!!!
I think is ok
It lamps more quickly as i turned cw speed pot, but i ve noticed that a500k pot is not so good.. There is not excursion to' calibrate speed very well!
Any suggestion?
Quote from: slash_83 on September 10, 2011, 06:47:53 AM
It lamps more quickly as i turned cw speed pot, but i ve noticed that a500k pot is not so good.. There is not excursion to' calibrate speed very well!
Any suggestion?
Sure!
Use the 500K "C" pot that is called for in the schematics. This would be a Reverse Log or Anti-log pot. That is what is used in the original flanger builds.
Good Luck ;D
Quote from: slash_83 on September 10, 2011, 06:47:53 AM
Quote from: Fender3D on September 09, 2011, 07:48:00 AM
Only U5 will oscillate (LFO), other IC are just filters or buffers.
1458 (4558 either) is a "stupider" op amp than 0x2 series ... it will oscillate for sure and should be cheaper...
you may use 5532 or 072 for filter (lesser noise).
hook an LED + 4k resistor from U5's pin 1 or 7 and GND to check LFO (speed LED)
Any suggestion?
I talked about op amps 'cause a 5532 won't work as LFO instead of 1458
Quote from: Fender3D on September 10, 2011, 11:00:02 AM
Quote from: slash_83 on September 10, 2011, 06:47:53 AM
Quote from: Fender3D on September 09, 2011, 07:48:00 AM
Only U5 will oscillate (LFO), other IC are just filters or buffers.
1458 (4558 either) is a "stupider" op amp than 0x2 series ... it will oscillate for sure and should be cheaper...
you may use 5532 or 072 for filter (lesser noise).
hook an LED + 4k resistor from U5's pin 1 or 7 and GND to check LFO (speed LED)
Any suggestion?
I talked about op amps 'cause a 5532 won't work as LFO instead of 1458
I ve used 4 tl082!
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on September 10, 2011, 08:12:00 AM
Quote from: slash_83 on September 10, 2011, 06:47:53 AM
It lamps more quickly as i turned cw speed pot, but i ve noticed that a500k pot is not so good.. There is not excursion to' calibrate speed very well!
Any suggestion?
Sure!
Use the 500K "C" pot that is called for in the schematics. This would be a Reverse Log or Anti-log pot. That is what is used in the original flanger builds.
Good Luck ;D
thank you!! ;)
Nothing to' do
Flanger doesnt work
I ve mounted mn3007 and nothing changes, sound exit from mxr without any effect
Pots don t do anything...
Mn3007 voltages Are
1 14.83
2 14.83
3 7.15
4 1.02
5 0
6 7,16
7 10,30
8 10.30
:'(
I ve re take them with 4049
Mn3007
14.84
14.84
1,68
1
0
6,43
9,86
9.84
4049
14,95
7,45
7.40
7.40
7.50
7.40
7.50
0
7.40
14,83
0
7,40
7,45
6,90
Voltage @ pin 2 (also @ pin 6) should be ~1/2Vcc, better check it with a scope or freq. meter looking for a square wave (~32KHz-~1MHz). You must have an issue somewhere betweem 4049 and MN 'cause voltage at pin 2 should be the same as at 4049's pin 10 AND 12
Quote from: Fender3D on September 13, 2011, 03:32:39 AM
Voltage @ pin 2 (also @ pin 6) should be ~1/2Vcc, better check it with a scope or freq. meter looking for a square wave (~32KHz-~1MHz). You must have an issue somewhere betweem 4049 and MN 'cause voltage at pin 2 should be the same as at 4049's pin 10 AND 12
I dont understand... I ve rechecked...
And i found different voltages
Now pin 2 is ok...same voltage as pin 11&12 of 4049!
I ve noticedthat mn3007 become a little hot...
My sensation is that problem is somewhere in the original board,because i ve the same problem when i used sad1024.
No effect...signal go throught effect but without modifications,pots doesnt work, if i swap some opamp nothing happens...
Only if i remove ic4 ( left- down ic) sound doesnt come out effect...i can play without ic1 ic2 ic3 ( 4013)ic5 and is the sane thing... Normal sound without effect!
I hate this flanger.. I m not able to' make work this pedal... Never
ok
it will work (it must).
Sadly it's just scope time...
try this without daughter board
You must have:
clock at 4013's pins 1 and 2 it will look weird if you have not your pots @ 0 (CCW).
Apply any kind of signal and check it at A1's pin 2 (it won't be the same, depending on freq. ) No signal means U2 dead(you said you have signal @ out).
Apply signal at A1's pin 11 or 12. Check it at U1's pin 1 and pin 7 (no signal means either U1 dead, or trim level at GND :icon_mrgreen: ).
Connect db.
Clock @ MN's pin 2 and 6.
Apply signal at input and check it at MN's pins 3 then 7-8. check for signal at db out. (You may have or not have signal depending on bias)
This assumes you have no shorts or bad solders around. If you have bad joints then smoke'em yourself :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: Fender3D on September 13, 2011, 06:08:01 AM
ok
it will work (it must).
Sadly it's just scope time...
try this without daughter board
You must have:
clock at 4013's pins 1 and 2 it will look weird if you have not your pots @ 0 (CCW).
Apply any kind of signal and check it at A1's pin 2 (it won't be the same, depending on freq. ) No signal means U2 dead(you said you have signal @ out).
Apply signal at A1's pin 11 or 12. Check it at U1's pin 1 and pin 7 (no signal means either U1 dead, or trim level at GND :icon_mrgreen: ).
Connect db.
Clock @ MN's pin 2 and 6.
Apply signal at input and check it at MN's pins 3 then 7-8. check for signal at db out. (You may have or not have signal depending on bias)
This assumes you have no shorts or bad solders around. If you have bad joints then smoke'em yourself :icon_mrgreen:
Thank u Fender...pm i ll try as u said,
A few minutes ago i was trying to' use a probe starting from out pin and going back to' circuit.
Well, i ve noticedthat after r41 i hve no more sound...but the strange thing is this:
If i touch with my hand pin2 of ic4, and with one probe i touch other parts of circuit, i hear scretch from amp.
For example,if i touch pin 8 of bbd usually i ve no sound, but if i touch pin 2 of ic4 i hear sound..
Im sorry for my explanation ..i hope you can understand
hmm
MXR is a double face board...
maybe any up-down side connection is weak or worse
From pin 1. 2 of 4013 i ve about 7v ill check op amp tomorrow
You should check for a proper clock there, not just a voltage
Quote from: slash_83 on September 13, 2011, 02:48:23 PM
From pin 1. 2 of 4013 i ve about 7v ill check op amp tomorrow
Correct me if I am wrong BUT, if this is an MXR Flanger and you are measuring the clock output from the 4013, shouldn't it be closer to 15V on the output? I know the clock pulse that runs to the original SAD chip is supposed to be at Vdd (15V).
If you are getting 7V at the clock output from the 4013... and you are using an M117 flanger.... that is a problem :-\
yep but you do have a 50% duty cycle, then ~1/2Vcc
Quote from: Fender3D on September 13, 2011, 03:38:02 PM
yep but you do have a 50% duty cycle, then ~1/2Vcc
Is this because of the 3007 retrofit?
I know with the SAD1024, I read a constant Vdd voltage at the clock pins on the 4013.
Bottom line is that the ORIGINAL circuit measures ~15V on the clock in BOTH my vintage and clone units.
Maybe your DMM reads clock's RMS value (it's about 15Vac @32KHz to ~1MHz, scope will show you the true waveform from ~0V to ~15V also). When measuring DC, DMM will read the average voltage available then 15V @ 50% duty cycle ~7.5V
That's why I did suggest to check for a proper clock above not just a voltage.
Whether you have not a proper clock BBD may stuck.
I m waiting for an oscilloscope
Today i ve cleaned pcb and checked soldering... NoW I CAN HEAR a "bump bump" sound from amp...if i rotate spped pot it became more quick or more slow...maybe something is going right...
Slash 83, what layout was used for your clone? Did you build it yourself? I'm asking because I had some issues with solder bridges on my Shredaholic layout. Have you checked for bridges on both the mainboard and the daughterboard? Once I took care of the issues on the main board, it really was just a matter of plugging in the daughterboard and adjusting the trimpots, so I'm wondering if at least part of your problem might not be mechanical...especially if the MN3007 is getting hot... ???
I ve lost my patience. I ve disassembled it.. Dont ask me why..etc.. I ve had this pedal uncompleted for years..hoping someday i d have repair it..now my Time is finished..monday i ll go away for working...about 9 months.
I think i ll buy mxr 117 original.. :icon_rolleyes:
I don't know why, but I find this depressing. Next time you, or anybody else for that matter, has this sort of "can't be fixed" pedal problem I implore you to put it down and step away from it for a few days. Don't return to it until you can look at it and not have it make you angry/crazy. This fresh mindset is often all that is needed. Sometimes the issue just pops out at you when a more relaxed attitude prevails. Best of luck on all future builds; and on your long work stint, slash_83.
In closing I would like to share w/everybody a PM I wrote a prominent member of the "Modulation Community". It was about a small, simple circuit I just couldn't get to work. This was written after I took a couple of days off from messing w/it. I called this PM "A Comedy of Errors/Murphys Law Lives!". Enjoy...
OK, so upon close inspection this is what was going on...
Error #1:Take a bag of transistors marked 2N3904 and randomly grab one. Do not look at the actual part itself. (Hmmm...)
Error #2:Solder part into PCB according to component layout in "paint by numbers" fashion. Do not give it a second thought. "I don't need to cross reference no stinking schematic!"(Hmmm2...)
Error #3:When circuit doesn't work troubleshoot over and over, convincing self that the components chosen & layout are perfectly correct. "How dare this not work!"(Hmmm3...)
Wait, it gets better.
Error #4:Convince self that you did connect the emitter to the output. (Hmmm4...)"I've installed countless numbers of these things. I know which pin is which!"
The realization(s):I installed a 2N3906. Backwards. The component layout shows the 3904 installed backwards (Assist *****! ) Lessons learned. I really should have caught all of these things. Guess it's time to "raise my game" a notch. Nice dose of humility also... The good stuff: It works as advertised. no volume loss at the output except at the highest clock f's (very slight) but this is something we have known about for a while. I would still like to change the filtering to the parameters I mentioned earlier.
As you see the problem was solved after all. Patience & persistence, my friends...
Words of wisdom, Dave. For me, flangers have proven especially irksome; my first Electric Mistress required several "just walk away" periods. And, inevitably, the problem would be something that I had assumed was correct... needless to say, I nearly crushed that bloody thing underfoot many times. But I sure learned a lot.
Slash 83, I too am sorry about your lack of success. You're not alone in the frustration that DIY effects can bring :-\. Best wishes for your work travels.
Jumping on the "Step away.." theme:
When I finished my most recent M117 clone, I could not get the darn thing working. Passed clean signal only! :icon_mad:
It worked on the darn breadboard, WHY WON'T IT WORK NOW?? :icon_mad:
After 12.... yes 12 STRAIGHT hours of debugging I was at my wits end. The next day I put in another 10 hours... still no workie! :icon_mad:
It wasn't until I took an entire weekend off that it took about 5 minutes to find the problem.
It was the madbean layout for a 125B and when I trimmed the PCB to fit in the enclosure, it cause a microscopic hairline crack in the groundplane along the edge of the board which essentially removed ground from the BBD and the Clock chips. :icon_redface:
30 seconds of soldering and it was up and running like a champ! That was the first time in about 3 years that I had to put that much debug time and effort into a build but, the theory still stands true!!
WALK AWAY and calmer heads WILL prevail ;D
Come on "picciotto" :icon_wink:
Where's the italian-do-it-better spirit gone?
Follow your PCB against schematic (shredaholic's is ok), though job but good new is your SAD might be working (if the issue is on PCB).
This boring stuff will teach you a lot, you bet...
Thank u to' all guys..
I would like to' do it.. Not just for use this effect...but to' be' able to' understand what have i done and what i ve failed!
I thnk tomorrow i ll clean pcb or maybe i ll do another pcb.
Some of these components were recycled from an old pcb of a mxr flanger that didnt work too ( yes it was the2 pcb i ve Made of this pedal)
So... If i ll not Time to' do it i think i ll bring pcb and components with me @ work and in the spare Time ill do it!! :D
Thank u...
That's the spirit! :D
Hi everyone, I know this is a very old forum but I still hope you can help me. I have an old broken electric mistress v6 clone. The sad1024 is not working (I had it tested by a technician). I thought I could replace the sad1024 with the doutherboard I found in this forum. Can you tell me if it's okay? If it goes well, can you tell me how to connect it to the electric mistress PCB?
Thanks in advance
(https://i.postimg.cc/JtXN6s61/El-Mistress-Clone.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JtXN6s61)