I pride myself in being mojo free in my designs. But sometimes I think I take this motto a little too far. For example:
Do you guys consider Ge diodes as a mojo component? What about JRC 4558's? I'm working on a pedal that sounds great with Ge diodes and the 4558 but my no mojo credo has me putting TL072's and 4148's instead. Both sound fine but I wonder if I'm doing myself a disservice by not even considering "mojo" components. Does it sound better with the GE and the 4558? Maybe or maybe not. But to me it is almost not worth it so I can keep my motto. Now I understand that certain "mojo" parts have particular characteristics that are desirable (like clipping thresholds in diodes) but you can almost always find a modern or cheaper part (schottky diodes instead of Ge) to use in it's place.
Why do I have parts I consider "mojo" parts if i don't use them? We'll it's always worth trying but I have only once found a situation where the part really did matter. That was when a NTE 938 (LM308 substitution) stomped all over a 741 in a simple dirt box. But. with more filtering or in a live setting, I probably wouldn't have noticed.
This also expends to high end parts as well. I tried some 833's and Burr Brown chips and while it sounded great (maybe too much lowend) it didn't seem worth it either.
Am I crazy??? Does anyone else feel this way?
I don't consider thoughts like that. When I build something I look at specs and cost. Though experimentation to make your own mind up on a part is critical to developing your understanding on subjects. Mojo too me just signifies that the part has a spec that people are not aware of like diodes sound different due to their internal resistance and capacitance from one too another. Once you understand the spec you can simulate it with different parts and have more control over the outcome.
Quote from: Pablo1234 on February 26, 2012, 02:32:28 PM
I don't consider thoughts like that. When I build something I look at specs and cost. Though experimentation to make your own mind up on a part is critical to developing your understanding on subjects. Mojo too me just signifies that the part has a spec that people are not aware of like diodes sound different due to their internal resistance and capacitance from one too another. Once you understand the spec you can simulate it with different parts and have more control over the outcome.
But why go through the trouble to simulate if the mojo part sounds fine to begin with?
This is the question I've been asking myself. I take a hard stance against designing with obsolete parts because I want to know that I could always build another one in the future if I want to revisit a design but some parts are still wildly available decades after production.
I say that you're thoughts are spot on...as long as you're LED's are blue. :icon_biggrin:
Curtis
I don't buy the mojo with opamps, my philosophy is that what matters here is noise/current use/headroom, the bandwidth of most opamps is waaaay past audio, whatever famous sound you get is from circuity around it (I'm going to link this awesome demonstration here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpTv2jAree8)
Diodes however do vary, germanium diodes to have a certain characteristic that makes them different for clipping from say regular 1n4148... but I don't believe that warrants digging up boxes of NOS germianium diodes from the 60s.
I think for very few dollars you could stock enough ge diodes to cover future production. A few dollars more would cover the 4558s.
Personally I would put a premium on what sounds good but I build pedals to use not sale.
IMO, "mojo" parts are there for bragging rights. "Ge Fuzz" is not mojo, unless you start touting "features military spec NOS CVxxx transistors!" then becomes mojo.
4558 makes different sounds in certain circuits, nothing "mojo". If you have a choice between chips, and they sound the same and function the same, just use the more common chip and save the 4558 or whatever for where it can be better utilized.
Take the Rat, for example. If you build it with an LM308, there's nothing "mojo" about it. Just compare the 308 against any other chip and you'll see there's no mojo, just pure "Doing What it's Doing". Mojo is "metrosexual". Mojo is "Flambouyant Gay". Mojo is "Jersey Wannabe Tough Guy". Mojo is just image, not about the particular part. Don't NOT use a 4558 because of a fear that it may be "mojo". If it sounds good, use it. If it looks pretty, then consider the circumstances... does it sound good? lol.
BTW, Ge, Si, and Schottky diodes all have their individual characteristics. Schottky works great when you need the low Vf of the Ge, but you aren't worried about (or you desire) the sharper sonic qualities. Ge works wherever you want or need it to, low Vf and "fuzzier" clipping than Si. No mojo in it at all. As a matter of fact, I have some OA85 NOS diodes that sound totally different than any of the Ge's I've bought online. I've been using them in a "Zen" circuit with Schottky's and 2N5458 fets and 4558's. They are a bit too soft for my taste, but they add just a bit of fizz to the underlying tones and sound great with guitar. I tried 3 different Ge diodes, and these were the only ones that gave me a sound that I couldn't get just by swapping out a Ge/Schottky with a regular Si diode. So, in that particular circuit, I use a couple "mojo" items, but it's simply for the sound.
ETA: I'd have more space without the horse pill diode, but it just sounds good! Also, went through TL072, NE5532, LM358, and 4558. 4558 sounded the best. 5532 was too "bright", let way more distortion from the upper spectrum come through. TL072 sounded too "soft", and the 358 just sounded like the 5532, for the most part (if you A/B them, you can hear the difference, but it's not enough, IMHO, to nitpick on).
(http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/6917/img0081zv.jpg)
Just to add to my level of commitment to "No Mojo". I use cheap ceramic caps for anything under .47uf. Why? Because I have a boat load of them!
Quote from: Bill Mountain on February 26, 2012, 02:24:50 PM
...but I wonder if I'm doing myself a disservice by not even considering "mojo" components.
yes, of course you are. your main concern is that is sounds good...so use anything at your disposal to that end.
In Texas, we have a saying: if it's true, it ain't braggin'.
If a part does what you want, and really, truly has some difference that's measurable and repeatable, just because other people li..., er - claim non-measurable and uniformly good, if non-specific benefits from it does not automatically make it wrong to use it. If you're only putting it in because it makes good advertising copy and other people blather about it, that's li... er, attributing magical powers it doesn't have.
Mandrake/mandragora root does/did have medical uses quite beyond its use as a mojo hand. Using it for a love potion is nonsensical at best.
If it works, use it.
Little known fact about mojo; Like honey, it lasts forever without preservatives.
I have a jar of mojo in my pantry. It's just right of the sky hook, behind the bucket of steam.
Quote from: digi2t on February 26, 2012, 08:00:28 PM
Little known fact about mojo; Like honey, it lasts forever without preservatives.
I have a jar of mojo in my pantry. It's just right of the sky hook, behind the bucket of steam.
I buy it by the gallon:
(http://www.lacajachina.com/product_images/x/773/47_1___69754_zoom.jpg)
Quote from: CynicalMan on February 26, 2012, 09:12:40 PM
I buy it by the gallon:
(http://www.lacajachina.com/product_images/x/773/47_1___69754_zoom.jpg)
Damn! Find that on Ebay? How does the lot test? That's not blacktopped Mojo you bought, isi it?
I'm just waiting for someone to start selling relic'd transistors that have been run hot then dunked in whiskey.
the opamp would be a bit of mojo. but the GE diodes would be preference. it's measurable. the forward voltage is much less than regular silicon (so, more clipping, less volume) and a bit higher than a schotkky. clipping on a scope even behaves differently (so maybe even some frequencies are compressing differently too? important for a distortion).
i like this description for the opamps, they will all do "the same sort of thing". however, they are different functioning opamps for different situations. the tl072 has a FET buffer, so if you're building a true bypass TS (as oppose to a buffered bypass factory mod) then maybe it WILL effect the tone. then again, haven't tested.
i don't think using solid core cloth covered wire compared to stranded thin copper you ripped out of a gameboy will make a difference here though...
i did a write-up on my thoughts on this matter a while ago: http://www.dazatronyx.com/tech/quality/ (http://www.dazatronyx.com/tech/quality/)
Quote
Mojo is "metrosexual".
Damn right. Old components often look nicer. More interesting. Cool shapes/colours/text.
Even to the uninitiated, mojotastic stuff is more visually pleasing than 'standard' plastic stuff, I reckon. Probably doesn't ever sound different enough to justify the extra few pennies but it just looks nicer.
That's me waving at you from the shallow end of the pool.
Quote from: CynicalMan on February 26, 2012, 09:12:40 PM
Quote from: digi2t on February 26, 2012, 08:00:28 PM
Little known fact about mojo; Like honey, it lasts forever without preservatives.
I have a jar of mojo in my pantry. It's just right of the sky hook, behind the bucket of steam.
I buy it by the gallon:
(http://www.lacajachina.com/product_images/x/773/47_1___69754_zoom.jpg)
+1 :icon_lol:
The JRC4558 only has any mojo when used in a Tube Screamer, anywhere else it's just A. N. Other opamp. Deliberately not using it in a TS is just admitting that it has mojo, it's inverted mojo. Like inverted snobbery, inverted mojo is just as bad as mojo :)
Quote from: slacker on February 27, 2012, 01:43:37 PM
The JRC4558 only has any mojo when used in a Tube Screamer.
Huh ??? The 4558 attracts chicks only in the tubesceamer ?
Just 2c here, but I just got my GE diodes and have comparing them to an asymmetrically clipped set of (2 3mm red LEDs and 1 1n4001) in my Kay Fuzz-Clone. The difference is audible and definitely a different character. More colors for the palette is a good thing.
Most mojo you hear is someone's claims about something that they are making for marketing purposes. There are other uses here that are more tongue in cheek - using old components, point-to-point wiring, a reliced, or older style finish, etc. Parts or build techniques that are almost anachronistic are often considered to have some "mojo".
I wouldn't choose for or against using certain parts based on their perceived mojo, or perceived lack thereof, unless I wanted it for marketing. Use a component based on: the desire to use it, you happen to have it on hand, or (most important) it gets you where you want to go.
If you're really desparate for some mojo, there are places where you can mail order yourself your very own mojo hand. Just get your self one and then rub every component you use on it (before soldering), including every wire, then touch every solder joint, rub it on the PC board, and rub it all long the outside. make sure you touch the LED both when it's lit and unlit (it'll get you a little bit of mojo even in bypass). When testing the new pedal, your guitar and amp will know the mojo is there, but keep the mojo hand close, just in case you missed a spot. :icon_lol:
4558 vs tl072 and ge vs si diodes is not mojo. They sound different and there are good reasons why. Tl072 has fet input stage. Si vs ge diodes have different fwd voltages and v-i curves, for example.
Quote from: Electron Tornado on February 27, 2012, 04:10:49 PM
Most mojo you hear is someone's claims about something that they are making for marketing purposes. There are other uses here that are more tongue in cheek - using old components, point-to-point wiring, a reliced, or older style finish, etc. Parts or build techniques that are almost anachronistic are often considered to have some "mojo".
I've been thinking about this today. I love seeing the P2P wirings and stuff in the Pictures! thread, but it bugged me to see it in a production pedal. I think it comes down to the "mojo" involved. A lot of the P2P's done by DIY'ers are done so because of a variety of reasons, the last and least significant is selling point. It's amazing to me, though, how the instinct works. The TS P2P pedal made me facepalm before facepalm became the new "WTF?!?" (like, a couple months ago, or something like that...). I don't quite get why, other than it has Ibanez on it, it's green, it's a TS... oh yeah. P2P with a DIP made me like all "WTF?!?" I dug the True Bypass, though... that buffered crap hasn't been working out too well for them all these years. :icon_lol:
@Doug, I've found there are huge differences in sound between many chips, in my short experience. Most notable to me are ones that have clarity, such as NE5532, and the BA728N used for some time by Boss, ones that are "softer" and seem to have desirable individual like 4558 and LM308, and the TL Jfet input amps. It makes sense to me that they will vary somewhat, circuit to circuit, on how they sound, given how different the internal structures are. Like you noted, Jfet inputs vs. BJT inputs, being the most notable example.
The clarity thing came about when I was playing around with DS-1 circuits. I couldn't find anything at RS (it was early on, lol) that sounded as "clear" as my DS-1, and the 4558's I had pulled sounded like mud to me. Later I got NE5532's in my stash, and I love them for the apparent "clarity". I find in most circuits that LM358's sound much the same, with some distortion at higher boosts (crossover distortion?)... I just keep them on hand because outputs go to ground :)
did you ever stop to wonder about true bypass (mojo or not)? for a DIY/boutique builders it's ALWAYS the easiest way to hook up a bypass, and will naturally be the first path to travel regardless. there's the arguments for and against buffered bypass but it's certainly more work! (:
Quote from: darron on February 28, 2012, 06:38:33 AM
did you ever stop to wonder about true bypass (mojo or not)? for a DIY/boutique builders it's ALWAYS the easiest way to hook up a bypass, and will naturally be the first path to travel regardless. there's the arguments for and against buffered bypass but it's certainly more work! (:
I've stopped fighting the good fight about buffered bypass. True bypass is easier and I don't have to explain my use of a buffer to anyone even though my favorite bypass is a simple buffered bypass from my Roger Mayer pedal.
By the way, after some serious listening I went with the 072 and the 4148's. I wanted slightly more headroom so I used Si diodes and I couldn't tell the difference between the 4558 and the 072 in this circuit so I went with what I had more of on hand. I may add one Ge diode (don't know what they are but they have a green stripe and the parts store said they were popular for radios) for some slight asymmetrical clipping.
Quote from: Earthscum on February 27, 2012, 11:50:28 PM
P2P with a DIP made me like all "WTF?!?"
Excellent work.
Quote from: Bill Mountain on February 28, 2012, 08:09:31 AM
Quote from: darron on February 28, 2012, 06:38:33 AM
did you ever stop to wonder about true bypass (mojo or not)? for a DIY/boutique builders it's ALWAYS the easiest way to hook up a bypass, and will naturally be the first path to travel regardless. there's the arguments for and against buffered bypass but it's certainly more work! (:
I've stopped fighting the good fight about buffered bypass. True bypass is easier and I don't have to explain my use of a buffer to anyone even though my favorite bypass is a simple buffered bypass from my Roger Mayer pedal.
I build stuff true-bypass because it is easier. I have a lot of buffered bypass pedals and a mixture of both whenever I set up a pedalboard. I personally could not give a sh*t either way. Okay, I won't stick my boss pedal in front of my rangemaster or fuzz face, duh... Beyond that, the differences are so trivial it's not even worth discussing. Yes, the next time I play Wembley stadium I'll make sure I have at least one buffer to drive the cable distance. Until then, aside from the aforementioned caveats, it's a complete non-issue for me.
My basic procedure for setting up a rig is:
1) Plug stuff in.
2) Turn the knobs until it sounds good.
Quote from: DougH on February 28, 2012, 12:18:35 PM
1) Plug stuff in.
2) Turn the knobs until it sounds good.
*edit*
3) if not then rearrange boxes. if yes then go to 5).
4) go to 1).
5) profit.
Quote from: DougH on February 28, 2012, 12:18:35 PM
My basic procedure for setting up a rig is:
1) Plug stuff in.
2) Turn the knobs until it sounds good.
Same here! That's why I love these amps http://www.satelliteamps.com/News/News.html
If the pedal already has a buffer on the front end, like most modulation and delay type things, then buffered bypass is no harder than true bypass. It then comes down to whether you like the buffered sound or not.
Quote from: slacker on February 28, 2012, 12:50:02 PM
If the pedal already has a buffer on the front end, like most modulation and delay type things, then buffered bypass is no harder than true bypass. It then comes down to whether you like the buffered sound or not.
Or if you already have a buffered output. That makes it really easy.
I like my sounds raw and my parts , normal . ( As in buffered )
Not totally odd like massive paper and oil caps / massive film caps .
I mean , WHAT'S THE @#$%ING POINT ?
sonic exploration, open mindedness, fun, etc...
makes for more erotic gut shots?
You would be labelled weird if you got a fizzing sensation due to "erotic gut shots"
What i think are erotic gut shots are properly done PCB designs , Neat wire routing , properly made PCB's .
And a whole lot of consideration on the way to mount the PCB .
And noise shielding + blast shielding . Sometimes aluminium ain't enough :icon_razz:
Theres no such thing as Mojo, there are just components that are new, old, somewhere in between. Si diodes and transistors were made because production process and technology moved on, it became cheaper and more consistent with silicon than Germanium. LSI and SMD is making through hole components a thing of the past and again thats all about making things cheaper and fitting more on a piece of silicon.
Theres nothing wrong with using all technologies available, the ones that actually work in any given circuit.
The people that advertise mojo in there equipment makes there product so much better than anything else in my opinion is what I dislike.
Thee is a lot in the fact that an old technology valve amp can sound much better than a modern SS type, but would you go out and buy a 12" black and white TV under the old tech is better banner. Everything has its place and if it improves what your designing then use it , if it doesn't then don't.
Instant mojo is bad for ya.
LOL @ DavenPaget. So are Pete Cornish pedals XXX rated?
The "mojo" is in the fingers, not some magic transistor or opamp. :icon_wink:
Mojo is defininely an overused word and is basically a marketing slogan or used for bragging rights. After all, how many people are really going to see the inside of a pedal you built? I have taken old TV's and the like from the side of the road and recycled the usuable stuff in some of my pedals. Can I call these sometimes odd pieces mojo? How about the huge paper in oil .0056 mfd cap I just used in a fuzz? Is that mojo?
I think these parts look cool and can sometimes affect tone in a noticeable way. We humans have a strange way of tricking our brain into thinking two parts with the same value but radically different shapes/colors/etc really do sound different. My opinion - the economy is bad - get the cheaper part if it sounds close...
I respect the hobby builder who has a taste for aesthetic building. I understand that old, green, JRC or brown parts won't necessary sound better but: this is a hobby. Mojo is not in the parts but in the mind of who watch them. You can play Ouija, not believe in spirits and still have fun. If Ibanez make a point-to-point design of a Tube Screamer I'll enjoy it because I know that every one here will get the occasion to post and talk about their opinion.
Quote from: Colonel Angus on March 01, 2012, 03:40:58 PM
LOL @ DavenPaget. So are Pete Cornish pedals XXX rated?
Yep .
(http://alltheragefaces.com/img/faces/jpg/sweet-jesus.jpg)