hey guys, i just bought this on ebay for 20 bux...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200764886673&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:US:3160
anyone know anything about it? i know the board has been replaced, gonna hopefully find a schematic so i can make an appropriate clone of the original circuit.
found it on discofreq's website, with a great gut shot.
(http://files.effectsdatabase.com/gear/thumbs/fal_treblebooster_003.jpg)
any info anyone can help me with is appreciated!!
http://www.effectsdatabase.com/model/fal/treblebooster
here's the shot inside the one i bought...absolutely not the same circuit, and looks almost like a commercial board.
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/falboard1.jpg)
That is a little weird, I haven't seen too many (if any at all) screen printed/solder masked pcbs from the 60's
It's certainly not the same circuit, I see two transistors in the one you bought and one in the old one.
It's a pretty neat looking box!
yah, it's definitely something else in there...
guess i'll have to wait to see what....but i really wanna try and put the original circuit in this puppy!!
it does indeed look cool!
Who knows, that little circuit may sound great and you can throw it in another box.
Sorry I can't be of any help, I had never even heard of a fal treble booster. I just checked the post because you have such good taste in effects.
"a 1967 Goya catalog
The original English Treble Boost. Precision made. $24.95
More info at http://www.effectsdatabase.com/model/fal/treblebooster#ixzz1vpJojthl
"
suck factor is the lack of guts. total suck. gonna have to find one of these things somewhere, so i can clone it and re-stuff this thing. it doesn't look like too many components,
but can't see the trace side.
i blew up the guts, but my eyes are way too spent to be sure of what i think i see.
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/FALtrebboost1.jpg)
i knows i'se an idiot....
but do ya think it's a rangemaster clone?
(http://www.lynx.net/~jc/rangemasterInv.gif)
"http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?977469-my-rangemaster-pedal-keeps-going-*POP*-when-I-turn-it-on"
Quote"I also have a faithful clone of the Dallas Rangemaster, a vintage FAL treble booster and it doesn't even have a switch, just plug and play that noisy bastard pedal "
[/size]
i realize it'll never be original, but i'd still love to try and restore this thing!!
Hi jimi, look for a circuit with 4 resistors, 6 caps and one tranny. Resistors might be 1K, 4K7, 10(or 100)K and 56(or 560)K. There's two blue electro's, one is 5uF, the other might be 20uF as a guess. The two mustard caps would be small value, can't read it. The tropical fish cap at the bottom is maybe 0.1uF but you can google for reading tropical caps. The little brown cap at the top might be mica and small value. I could be miles out with this but it might help in the absence of other posters. It might be similar to the rangemaster but we have 2 caps left over...
thanks ian, i really appreciate it...
hopefully one of the gurus will pop in. i know i've seen a similar looking board before.
Hi
Regarding the original, the big electro is probably for smoothing the power supply. One end of the top (mica?) cap looks to be soldered to the DC input, maybe as an extra filter to ground.
The input cap will be small, given that the input impedance is moderate in a common emitter circuit, and it is a treble-boosting circuit. Maybe the trop fish cap is for input (from the cable to its right?).
The two resistors with orange 3rd bands (1k multiplier) are almost certainly the bias resistors (68k and 10k), which must always be the highest values, while the others (red band, 100 multiplier) are likely to be Rc and Re (4.7k and 1k, respectively). For Rc and Re with a ratio of 4.7:1 there would be a gain of 4.7 (ie a small boost), but I suspect that the 1k is bypassed by the 5uF electro next to it, to get lots extra boost.
Those mustard caps are a bit of a mystery, as just one of them would be needed for output.
Of course, these are all guesses.
cheers
thanks brett,
makes sense...
i'm gonna have to mess around with it some when it gets here, still scouring the web for info...
gonna try and sign into my old HC account and ask the guy who said he has one if he can send me some gut shots, and hopefully the trace side of the board.
the guy on hc can't help, but synthi on the forbidden forum had one:
Re: fal treble booster from 67
Postby Synthi » Today, 08:52
I bought one ( € 1!) a few years ago, it's a rangemaster clone, but the resistors are different, base resistors are 6k8 to -, and 10k to ground, collector resistor is 4k7 , emitter resistor is 1 k. The input capacitor is 2 capacitors in series, both 10 N. There are 2 outputs, one is the cable, output capacitor is 100N, the other output is the small connector in the top of the picture, output C is 47 N. Transistor is a NTK216. I cannot read the valus of the elco's , I think it's 100 for the big one and 25 for the other ( emitter).
Looking at the picture
I see brown black orange 10K
and maybe under the yellow wire blue grey? orange 68K
I should note Brett mentioned 68k in this thread
6.8k and 10k as a bias divider is a low input resistance about 4k and then that is in parallel with the input of the transistor , 68k and 10k is higher about 8.7k and in parallel with the input of the transistor
I simmed two Si NPN 2N2222 versions (10k, 6.8k) (68k, 10k)
The 68k, 10k divider and 4.7k , 1k has the collector at about 6.7VDC.
thanks gus...
one day i will try to get it right...i still don't understand enough to follow this too well..
but i'm trying, and learning...slowly.
hard to teach an old dog new tricks!!!! ;)
A guess from the pictures and posts in this thread. I simmed it as a NPN Si transistor because I don't have a Ge transistor model.
I added a simple guitar/cable sim volume and tone control at max. Voltages in blue are from the sim.
(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=47613&g2_serialNumber=1)
Green input, Blue output
(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=47616&g2_serialNumber=1)
wow, thanks gus!!! what an awesome 50th birthday gift!!!!
;)
thank you, my friend!!!
gonna vero this together and try it gus...thanks for the help my friend!
i will report back...
namaste!
drew up a vero, gonna go build it and try it out...gonna play with some GE transistors and see what happens...
here's the vero:
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/FALtreblebooster.png)
and a pnp version:
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/FALtrebleboosterPNP-1.png)
not verified yet, but it looks good to me...gonna build 'em up and will report back.
peace!
and thanks, gus!!
What I posted is a GUESS of how the cap and resistor values are setup. Other people posted good information in this thread. I CHANGED the transistor to a NPN Si and made it +9 so one could build a Si version of the circuit. The sim shows the transistor biased more to cutoff.
All I did was make a sim using information from others posts to check the DC voltages at the Base, Collector and Emitter.
A question is what are the divider resistor values? The picture shows possible values of 10K and 68K, however 6.8K instead of 68k and the transistor being a NTK216 and the value of the cap going to the small connector is in the Synthi part of a post.
Are there different versions one with a 68k and one with a 6.8k?
The low input resistance might be part of the design to load the guitar so the circuit would not be too loud without a volume control.
I have not found information for NTK216 on the web. I don't have a book with NTK numbers, is it a PNP Ge?
hi gus,
i don't know if it's a pnp ge, but in the pic, it kinda looks like an ac 128 or something... i've just gotten done with another project, so i'm gonna build up the circuit you simmed and socket damn near everything, so i can mess with it.
i think it seems like you're on the right path from my limited understanding.. we'll see what happens. i will write down all the other values people guesstimated and have a play with it.
i really appreciate the help, my friend!
honored!
peace!
ok, i built it...i socketed the power +/- and electros.
didn't even bother with silicon, went straight to the germanium. first thing i tried was an ac128.
LOVE. TUMESCENCE!!!! WOOD!!!
also tried various other ge's, 2sc's, 2n 404's, mp16's, nte whatevers... but the ac 128 is the one.
MAN, what a sound...phat and fuzzy, cleans up brilliantly via guitar knobs, nice natural warm treble boost with prominent octave overtones...
i'm gutting the FAL and putting this in. night and day difference...this thing sounds like the late 60's. it's the only way i can describe it.
so...gus? i think you nailed it bro!!! well done, and thank you!!!
thanx for doin all the work! ...a cool Rangemaster variant. Did you make a note of the voltages?
so you have this:
(http://www.luciferstrip.com/fuzz/fal-treble-boost-schematic.jpg)
yep, that's it. all she wrote bro!!
i'll write the voltages down tomorrow, and check the hfe of the ac128
seems like the hotter the transistor, the better it sounded. not harsh at all!!
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 30, 2012, 12:18:09 AM
yep, that's it. all she wrote bro!!
i'll write the voltages down tomorrow, and check the hfe of the ac128
beautiful...I'll breadboard shortly and compare
Quote
seems like the hotter the transistor, the better it sounded. not harsh at all!!
yep...the input (especially) and output caps are larger than the Rangemaster
funny thing about this is that not enough people own it (like the Rangemaster) to know if it sounds "right"
Jimi - I'm a bit confused.
What is the circuit we are hearing in your "stupid pedal tricks" demo?
You say it's a best guess, but would like to make it EXACT. As far as I can see the demo is posted before Gus's layout. So what exactly is the circuit in the demo - just curious?
lion
So the"final" built circuit does not have a .005uf(.0047uf) input cap? Two .01uf/10nf in series like Synthi wrote as the input caps would be .005uf. The only part in Synthi writeup that does not match is the 6.8k or 68k, the third band looks orange in the picture.
Note that the frequency transition of transistors will show up, moving the peak in Gus' graph to one side or the other, and/or narrowing the peak.
For example, a Matsushita 2sd352 will be more like a mid-high booster because of its very low Ft, an ACxxx will be more on the treble side but not so trebly, a Matsuhita 2sb175 will reveal more highs, and a silicon will be very bright.
Salt and pepper to taste :)
mac
hi guys,
all will be revealed...
i DID make a mistake on the vero, i'm late for a gig, so will have to fix it tomorrow...the output cap should be. 047u, not p...my bad.
the input cap i used.1, it's probably why it has such a nice fuzzy goodness...when i saw the 2 caps at the beginning of gus's sim, i thought that was supposed to show the capacitance of the guitar on the circuit...i'm still fairly new at this despite doing a lot of builds. monkey can see, monkey can do, but monkey can't articulate what he sees and does, ya know?
the existing video demo is for all intents a hornsby skewes treble booster, which works out to be really close to what gus figured out...so that's what's in the box right now. i'll be taking it out and replacing it with the circuit gus helped me with when i get a chance, and stick the other booster (which is silicon/npn and nowhere even close tonally) in it's own box.
i thought the .1 cap seemed kinda big for a treble booster...probably why it has such a nice sounding fuzz. i'll change it to .oo47 when i get the chance that should be close enough to the original circuit i guess.
that said, it IS a nice circuit and works great as gus envisioned...fix the one mistake in value on the output cap, and you should be good to go.
more later...i gotta all-day show outside...and am recovering from seeing the wall last nite. ;)
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 30, 2012, 11:51:34 AM
i thought the .1 cap seemed kinda big for a treble booster...probably why it has such a nice sounding fuzz. i'll change it to .oo47 when i get the chance that should be close enough to the original circuit i guess.
I changed the schematic to .0047
thanks lu!
here's the corrected verified vero layout for the FAL treble booster as close as i figure we can get at this point. ;)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/FALtrebleboosterPNP-2.png)
i used this layout, for a transistor i used an ac128, hfe of 217. tried mp16b, 2n404, several 2scxxx's, 2n3906. to my ear, the ac128 won the shootout for tonefulness..
i socketed the power supply points, transistors, and electros so i could try it as pnp or npn...the pnp ge was so nice, there was no looking back.
i DID build mine with the input cap being .1u...very warm, lively fuzz. i'll make it a standalone box, and build the correct version of this circuit and house it in the FAL box.
voltages i got with a ps of 9.44vdc
e 8.44
b 4.75
c 4.73
so...do you think we can call this one done? lu, have you breadboarded this thing too?
really nice little circuit...i'm kinda a newb, was the hornsby skewes as close as i thought it was?
i went back and looked at this some more, and came to a realization.
mine does not HAVE the "small connector"...all there is is an input jack and an output cable. and the battery door, the battery was originally an "m" size...3.2v, obviously this one is set up to run for 9v...so no, i guess we still don't have the original circuit.
but...if it's out there...it'll turn up eventually! ;)
fwiw, some pics of mine:
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/293812_3878932784701_830517473_n.jpg)
see? no third connector...input, output wire, that's it...
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/548744_3878772060683_1051415605_n.jpg)
and the ciruit board i vero'd up:
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/548157_3878746540045_162998743_n.jpg)
i DID change the input cap to .0047, didn't really make as big a difference as i thought it would...more treble significantly, but still a real nice warm fuzzy distortion when the guitar is cranked,
very clear and bright when rolled back.
sounds GREAT in front of my dod250 clone.
i compared it to the hornsby skewes tb i had originally put in there...it's really close to the same circuit. that was using a 2n3906, this one sounds much warmer/better to my ear.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on July 01, 2012, 04:40:11 PM
i went back and looked at this some more, and came to a realization.
mine does not HAVE the "small connector"...all there is is an input jack and an output cable. and the battery door, the battery was originally an "m" size...3.2v, obviously this one is set up to run for 9v...so no, i guess we still don't have the original circuit.
funny...i just finished a couple circuits and was ready to go for this...
Actually, what battery is in Synthi's ?
I would try two alkaline AA or AAA cells and see where the collector voltage ends up not changing anything else.
EDIT if I was to build a Si PNP treble booster I would use something like a TIP30
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/TI/TIP30C.pdf
molded on the plastic case, it says an m size battery, and some other presumably brit number for the same thing.
i bet at 3v it will be fine. will have to try. i could go with the m size and see what happens, just hate to waste the bread on an 9 buck battery if i don't need to.
the original pictures synthy posted are apparently a different revision from the one i've got.
haha...sounds cool...so, just to be clear, we're doin' Synthi's version that has a 9V supply, which is this:
(http://www.luciferstrip.com/fuzz/fal-treble-boost-schematic-2.jpg)
then, there's your box which has a 3V supply....which actually could be the same circuit, but we have no idea yet.
either way, I'll try it out later tonight
cool, lu,
lookin' forward to the results of your experiment.
i LOVE the sound of mine at 9v, i bet it gets a little fuzzier at 3.
;)
just got done with a ton of experimentation...
I started with a low leak 80 hfe ge, 80uA leakage with 9.6V adapter. K = K from base to (-). All voltages below are (-)
The transistor turns on at around 2V (collector), which for me was 38K (250K pot subbed for the 68K). The V increases along with K. I actually got a decent tone all the way from 2.5V to to 8.6V (250K), but there is sweet spot in the 5 - 6.5V range (~60 - 90K). The 68K gave me 5.2V. If you raise the V into the 6's, 7's, etc there's some treble loss...which might be better if you think it's too harsh at lower V.
With a lower gain transistor, you'll get a higher voltage on the collector, so you have to lower the K to get that 5 - 6.5V range. The lower gain ones (< 50 hfe) in the circuit are totally predictable...less volume, less sharpness, etc, but still sound decent. ...and it's the opposite with higher gain. In the end, I went with a 2N398A with gain 110 and leakage 100uA. It was a little louder & brighter.
Don't use anything with higher leakage. Just like with the Rangemaster, it adds hiss.
I tried silicon with hfe ~ 130 and the collector voltage was higher than with ge with the same K. So, you have to lower the K to hit the 5 - 6.5V range. For that transistor, I was in the 50 - 55K range for the sweet spot. It really wasn't as bad or harsh as I expected, but I didn't like it nearly as much as the ge transistor.
The silicon turned on around 20K (2.5V), so I can't see any way that 6.8K can be correct if the other values are accurate.
I tried a 3V supply with the 110 hfe ge and it worked right off. The K value for the sweet spot was the same as with 9V supply (~60 - 90K) and the voltage sweet spot was around 2V. Similar to using a low gain transistor, it simply wasn't as loud, sharp or bright...but still decent.
Final version:
(http://www.luciferstrip.com/fuzz/fal-treble-boost-schematic-final.jpg)
A little off topic
I use an external bias control when I build a Si treble boost. The resistor I adjust causes less of a change of input resistance and the high pass frequency. Second image shows the change with different input caps
(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=45925&g2_serialNumber=2)
(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=45928&g2_serialNumber=2)
cool. well done guys.
;)
now i just gotta work up a mojo layout for it. ;)