So just for the sheer fun, learning experience and also to save space on my board, I built two of a well known boutique pedal and shove them into one box for myself with no intention of selling it or building more than one example. But now someone else saw it and wants me to build another one exactly like mine for him. What should I do or should I not do?
The cloned pedal is still commercially available but I did some minor changes to the output cap and added an additional pulldown resistor. And due to limited availability, I didn't use the same materials as the originals for some components. No change in tone and no modification to the core design. And cosmetically it doesn't look even remotely close to the original.
I did a quick search but couldn't find any that is similar to my case (being a dual pedal, slight mod and all that). I also don't live in the States so I don't know how that could affect how the copyright law works (I'm not a legal person). I do have a lot of respect to the original builder and would like to not cause any grief to him.
I understand that this has a moral and legal aspects to it, I'm interested to hearing (reading) what you guys recommend. Thanks in advance!
you're not building these things in volume or to make a living
so long as you're just doing one-offs, I can't imagine you'd run into any legal problems
build another and sell it for parts plus labor
You have a few major options.
1. Just do it, and live with the consequences - if any. The unlikeliness of getting caught at this or there being enforceable legal remedies means that this is what most of the effects boutique industry does.
2. Contact the people who made the thing you cloned, and ask permission nicely. Then either follow their wishes, or do whatever you want. This does tend to limit your plausible deniability, though.
3. Say "No" to the guy who wants one. Think about whether the money and/or aggrandizement is worth the worry.
4. Teach the guy who wants one to make his own clone, and extract your "payment" in beer, introduction to lissome ladies, etc.
One thing that I am absolutely, positively, SURE about...
You WILL NOT be the first, second, or 100th person to do this! :icon_lol:
Quote from: R.G. on July 02, 2012, 10:16:59 AM
4. Teach the guy who wants one to make his own clone, and extract your "payment" in beer, introduction to lissome ladies, etc.
Had to look that one up! :icon_eek:
Go for it... it's always good experience to build for other people.
Quote from: Boxxy
You's trollin
;D joking
Here's a place to start: http://www.muzique.com/clones.htm (http://www.muzique.com/clones.htm), although it's mostly discussing U.S. law.
I'm not a legal person either (that's my disclaimer), but my opinion is that doing what you are describing wouldn't have any legal consequences.
Ethics are a different matter. It sounds like you've already put some thought into this. Worst case, you could always ask your friend to buy the original pedals (so the original builder is not harmed), and trade them to you for your custom-built version. As long as you don't resell the original commercial pedals, your friend has what he wants (your cool custom pedal), the original commercial builder has what he wants (your friend's money), and you have what you want (a clear conscience).
If your friend's intent was simply to circumvent the high retail cost of the commercial pedals, then you probably need to exercise your own ethical judgement about it.
paypal me £145.000 then i'm sure you'll be ok,.... ;)
Careful... it may be a sting.
Seriously though, I've learned a lot by making pedals for my friends. I don't think my amateur clones are taking a bite out of the commercial pedal market. Also my friends are cheapskates, so its not like they are gonna shell out for new stuff anyways. I think about it like this: if I want pizza and go to the store and take ingredients off the shelf without paying, that's probably wrong. But if I want to make a pizza and use the recipe from the restaurant I used to work, I'm not going to lose sleep at night (especially with a belly full of pizza and homemade fuzz faces)
Build it for them.
The "well known boutique builder" could pay a lawyer $300 to send you a cease and desist letter.
It's highly unlikely this builder has $300 to spare, though..... ;D
build it for them dude. When I build stuff for my friends I usually trade for other musical gear, primarily other broken pedals they have, guitar pickups, etc. But if you want to charge them money for it that's ok too. The "boutique" builder probably ripped the circuit off from somebody else anyway...
listen to the Resident Guru.
The point is beleaguered here; http://www.muzique.com/clones.htm If everyone applied your standard of ethics the DIY world for effects, guitars, amps, TV's, beer, etc.. would not exist. If dozens of companies big and small, can build variations [sometimes direct copies] of effects, and a dozen more companies sell circuit boards, parts and kits to build clones, then you building for yourself and a few friends is fine.
Bottom line, build it.
I'd be curious to hear from anyone who was building for themselves and/or a few friends if they had any issues from the original manufacturers.
Don't know the laws in Sydney Australia but I think I heard they will only chop off your hands if caught...
Quote from: ekamal on July 02, 2012, 09:49:36 AM
The cloned pedal is still commercially available but I did some minor changes to the output cap
That's probably all that differentiates the still commercially available boutique pedal from a Tubescreamer/Big Muff/Rat/Fuzz Face [delete as applicable], so I wouldn't lose too much sleep.
You could get in touch with the designer and offer to pay them a reasonable licensing fee for your clone, and/or could put a note on the bottom of the pedal or something "Original Circuit Design By _____", that would be the good people thing to do.
I know Electro Harmonix licensed the Mu-Tron III circuit from Mike Beigel, the inventor, for their Q-Tron, in spite of a few minor modifications.
Hi all, thanks for all the replies, still mostly undecided at this point but probably will just build a one-off for my friend at cost plus labour.
What is a reasonable rate for labour?
Quote from: R.G. on July 02, 2012, 10:16:59 AM
You have a few major options.
1. Just do it, and live with the consequences - if any. The unlikeliness of getting caught at this or there being enforceable legal remedies means that this is what most of the effects boutique industry does.
2. Contact the people who made the thing you cloned, and ask permission nicely. Then either follow their wishes, or do whatever you want. This does tend to limit your plausible deniability, though.
3. Say "No" to the guy who wants one. Think about whether the money and/or aggrandizement is worth the worry.
4. Teach the guy who wants one to make his own clone, and extract your "payment" in beer, introduction to lissome ladies, etc.
Hi R.G., thanks for the options, as I said in the previous post, I'd probably go with the previous post. If someone else asks me to build another pedal then I'll post back ha.
I'd probably just follow your options sequentially, as in if I get additional requests and I have time to do it I will have to go option 2. If I get more requests and I have no time then I'll go with option 3.
Would be ideal to do option 4, I love sharing knowledge etc but would be hard to ensure that the guy will act legally, ethically and morally.
Quote from: waltk on July 02, 2012, 10:32:00 AM
If your friend's intent was simply to circumvent the high retail cost of the commercial pedals, then you probably need to exercise your own ethical judgement about it.
I think he's mostly wanting to avoid the long waiting period, he doesn't mind the retail cost at all.
Quote from: J0K3RX on July 02, 2012, 06:17:44 PM
Don't know the laws in Sydney Australia but I think I heard they will only chop off your hands if caught...
Sometimes they pluck your eyes out and force you to work in the dungeon with shackles, but don't tell the government that.. :icon_wink:
Disclaimer: I'm not an attorney, although I play one in my own mind... :)
The boutique has probably copied someone else's design and possibly made some modifications. Is this or other boutiques manufacturing it without liscenses? If so, it's a pretty good assumption that the originator is not concerned about licensing.
I think the biggest concern would be labeling it with the same or similar company name, effect name, and/or using similar artwork. Sounds like you wouldn't do any of that anyway.
Hey Ekamal, can you make one for me too ;) ;D
For this hobby don't expect it to work out to very much $$$ per hour. Unless you work really fast. I'd shoot for 100$ or so depending on the complexity of the circuit and wiring, the rarity of parts and the detail in finishing.
Quote from: Pyr0 on July 03, 2012, 05:47:48 AM
Hey Ekamal, can you make one for me too ;) ;D
Doh! :D
Quote from: Colonel Angus on July 03, 2012, 08:37:41 AM
For this hobby don't expect it to work out to very much $$$ per hour. Unless you work really fast. I'd shoot for 100$ or so depending on the complexity of the circuit and wiring, the rarity of parts and the detail in finishing.
Thanks Colonel Angus, not really looking at big $, just looking for a fair labour rate. So are you saying $100 just for labour?
I think if a pedal costs over 100$-150$ retail then I would expect very high quality or something rare/custom/unique about it. Realistically you will probably only be able to get 3-4 dollars an hour to be able to charge a price that is palatable, again this is based on an assumption of an average rate of speed. If you could throw together a working Ludwig Phase II in 5 or 6 hours, it might be a different story. Or if your pedal is something like this :(http://www.beavisaudio.com/techpages/blocksfragments/images/EHX_LPB_1_Booster_Schematic.gif)
which you could make in 5 minutes... charging 150$ for it... well, then we are back to the ethics arena
IMHO and my 2 cents...
If you can find whatever it is that you are building (even if it is not customized as you are saying) on eBay, craigslist, etc. for a certain amount.... that is about what you will get! :-\
Example...
If you are building a Phase 90 with depth mod, script/block mod, etc. then it may take you XXX amount of hours and materials which adds up... in your mind... to $75
The same non-modded Phase 90 is available on eBay for $35 shipped. (hypothetical)
Guess what.... you can expect to be offered $35 :-[
In this day and age of the internets, that is how it goes however, like the Colonel said, if you are making something that is rare or more in-depth or collectable, you may be rewarded ;D
At least that is what I have experienced! :icon_rolleyes:
1) Do NOT call it or label it with the name of the original. Much of what pedal-makers do not appreciate is a product of questionable reliability, or unspecified parts substitutions, besmirching the reputation of their product. So feel free to tell the friend that it is a clone of X or Y underneath, but whatever you put on the chassis in the way of graphics should clearly differentiate it. So keep the names distinct and have fun with it. For example, I have a Ross clone that I coyly labelled "Trey Chic" (a pun on Trey Anastasio, who uses one and popularized them as a result, and the French expression très chic, meaning "very fashionable"). My Big Muff Pi is a Fuzzy Little Tart.
2) If you are relying on someone else's layout, credit them openly.
3) You will likely make less than minimum wage for your efforts, unless your friend is the sort that leaves 25% tips to servers. That should not be a deterent to you making one, but will certainly be a deterent to you making enough to have an economic impact on the maker of the original.
4) http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=98104.0
+1
Not trying to be pessimistic, but here's an example:
Parts = $40
Time = 5 hrs
You sell it for $100
Net Profit = $60
Your hourly rate = $60/5 = $12/hr
Oh, don't forget you probably have to have a state tax ID and charge tax. Here in TX it's 8.25%. So take $8.25 off of the sale price and you gross $91.75 and net $51.75. Your hourly rate is now $10.35/hr. I don't know about you, but my time is worth a whole lot more than that. :)
Almost forgot Uncle Sam and state income tax. Take another $15% off the top for them.
Plan for occasional returns and replacements too.
If you're doing this as a hobby and doing one here and there, don't sweat it. If you go into business and you're selling them on the web, you'll need to do all the things that businesses are expected to do.
Edit: 5 hours might be low depending on what you're building. Also, if you're selling on eBay, don't forget charges for them and PayPal.
You make more than 10$ and hour :o :o :o :o
:icon_lol:
Quotethrow together a working Ludwig Phase II in 5 or 6 hours, it might be a different story.
Crap!! I must be REALLY slow. Thank God I wasn`t punching the clock on that one. :icon_mrgreen:
Seriously, I`ve only ever built two pedals for other people, both close family friends. No labeling or markings on the enclosure (other than for the controls), and I only charged exactly what the parts cost. First off, I wanted to do it for them, and secondly, it get spazzy sometimes when money enters the equation, especially where family and friends are concerned.
So, use your head.
I`m going back to work on my Ludwig..... AGAIN!!! :icon_lol:
Quote from: Mark Hammer on July 03, 2012, 11:08:36 AM
1) Do NOT call it or label it with the name of the original. Much of what pedal-makers do not appreciate is a product of questionable reliability, or unspecified parts substitutions, besmirching the reputation of their product. So feel free to tell the friend that it is a clone of X or Y underneath, but whatever you put on the chassis in the way of graphics should clearly differentiate it. So keep the names distinct and have fun with it. For example, I have a Ross clone that I coyly labelled "Trey Chic" (a pun on Trey Anastasio, who uses one and popularized them as a result, and the French expression très chic, meaning "very fashionable"). My Big Muff Pi is a Fuzzy Little Tart.
2) If you are relying on someone else's layout, credit them openly.
Excellent advice from Mark!! Those are often the crux of much of the moral dilemma that DIYers have in this situation.
My 2 cents for ekamal:
You are not producing that pedal and putting it on the market, you are building a pedal for someone who asked you to build it for them. This may be the only other of this pedal that you build, in which case, it's hardly going to impact the maker of the pedal you cloned. There is very little in effects pedals which is completely original, so I wouldn't bother asking the original maker. As others have stated, the pedal you cloned is very likely little more than a modified clone of yet some other pedal.
Here is an example. The MXR Distortion Plus and DOD OD250 are basically the same circuit, with the difference being the values of a few of the components. Neither company is suing the other. Same thing with the Vox and Cry Baby wah pedals. *
Build the pedal for your friend, but don't sell yourself short on your cost for parts or labor. Remember, you are doing a custom build at the request of a customer.
* This begs the question - at which point can you put a circuit in a box with your own brand and name on it and market it as your own?
Quote from: Electron Tornado on July 03, 2012, 01:06:56 PM
* This begs the question - at which point can you put a circuit in a box with your own brand and name on it and market it as your own?
At the point your conscience lets you.
What if you do it un-consciencely :icon_lol: ?
Quote from: Mark Hammer on July 03, 2012, 11:08:36 AM...
2) If you are relying on someone else's layout, credit them openly.
...
Agreed! I know of at least one bootweeker popular with the P&W crowd who has used layouts from tonepad, GGG, and madbean without giving proper credit to the layout designers. Said bootweeker even uses a rog circuit, again, without crediting rog for the circuit design.
Quote from: Colonel Angus on July 03, 2012, 01:58:28 PM
What if you do it un-consciencely :icon_lol: ?
That would be unconscionable... :icon_neutral:
I know you copied me and its ok :P ( obvouse sarcasm intended) This is a great thread! Some great advice too. I build things here and there for friends and I am just honest with them. I tell them everywhere i found ideas schematics layouts whatever. I charge what I feel is right for me. The bottom line is, what we do is hard and has a big learning curve. Not a lot of guys want to do it, so charge whatever you feel is appropriate. If they want to diy, help em out. I send a lot of people to this forum. I try not to copy to much, but circuites being what they are, its hard not to see similarity in a lot of them. I build with tubes a lot and the voltage amplifier is so basic how could it not be a clone of something right? Either way, congrats on building things so cool other people want them. you sound like a good dude and i am sure you will do the right thing.
+1...
now go build some amazing boot bling...and be proud!!!... ;) :icon_cool:
Quote from: ubersam on July 03, 2012, 03:17:20 PMI know of at least one bootweeker popular with the P&W crowd who has used layouts from tonepad, GGG, and madbean without giving proper credit to the layout designers. Said bootweeker even uses a rog circuit, again, without crediting rog for the circuit design.
When a P&W'er steps on one of his pedals, Jesus sheds a tear. :'(
whats a p&w'er ? sorry, im kinda slow..
Praise & Worship. Seems quite popular with some guitar players in the US.
I just like to say something here thats probably outside the box of the general consensus in regards to 'cloning for sale'.
There are of course moral issues involved with ripping off someone elses work directly / stealing a copyright name etc which i dont encourage. But...we are a talented bunch and it saddens me to think that we can't make money off our talent. The time love and attention i see some people on this forum putting into there builds can leave me speechless...And then you see guitarists raving about JOYO pedals and how great they are. They dont care about the quality of the parts used, additional mods, time spent building it, etc. They are only concerned with 1) whether the pedal sounds like whats its cloned after and 2) how much it costs. It just doesnt seem fair to me...
I'd say if you can build a pedal to sell and make money off it that is worth your while making it in the first place, go for it. The thing is that most people that build to sell enjoy building them so much that the pitence of extra $$ they make goes towards more pedal parts or maybe a pedal for themselves? Build 2 get one free.
Money aside, although i havent sold many, when i have built a pedal to sell, i've found it tests my build quality skills and knowledge and i end up a better builder then when i started. Which for me is more important then the 20-30 dollars you 'might' make off the finished product.
Paul
I say build and sell if you can. Just tell folks where you got the designs and give credit where its due. That way they are paying for the parts and the labor...
Thanks all for chiming in, I'm taking it all in and have learned so much from your replies. More along the lines of what chromesphere said earlier, I've decided to build two and keep one for myself as a reward. I can always find use for it.
So the plan is:
- name the pedal with something different to the original but I will try to hint to the original pedal as per Mark Hammer's suggestion
- I will stick a piece of paper inside at the back of the bottom plate to give credit to the original work, including the original pedal builder and the PCB layout I'm using
- charge the guy parts + labour
It's always cool to have something I will have built on somebody else's board.
Good points in these 2 pages.
If I may add mine,
I seriously think we wouldn't have got rock music if Jim Marshall wouldn't copied a Fender amp with european parts...
He named it after his name, gave no credit at all and created a milestone for music.
If you give your customers something they can't find anywhere, then you're done
Quote from: Processaurus on July 02, 2012, 08:08:57 PM
You could get in touch with the designer and offer to pay them a reasonable licensing fee for your clone, and/or could put a note on the bottom of the pedal or something "Original Circuit Design By _____", that would be the good people thing to do.
I know Electro Harmonix licensed the Mu-Tron III circuit from Mike Beigel, the inventor, for their Q-Tron, in spite of a few minor modifications.
Well, those modifications were done with a little help from M. B. himself... :icon_wink:
most people who build things and use them will sooner or later run into someone who want to pay you to build for them...I value my time more than what is reasonable to charge for the work I do( with one off's, there is no way you can compete with any comersial product if looks and build quality counts and you put a realistic price on the hours you spend), so I just tell them it is called DIY for a reason and all the info they need are out there for free on the web...
..DIY, ok?
J
Quote from: Fender3D on July 06, 2012, 06:48:57 AM
Good points in these 2 pages.
If I may add mine,
I seriously think we wouldn't have got rock music if Jim Marshall wouldn't copied a Fender amp with european parts...
He named it after his name, gave no credit at all and created a milestone for music.
If you give your customers something they can't find anywhere, then you're done
And to take it a step further, wasn't Mr. Fender pretty much just using circuits published in the tube manufacturer's literature, there to encourage people to use their tubes.
dave
Quote from: davent on July 08, 2012, 12:44:23 PM
And to take it a step further, wasn't Mr. Fender pretty much just using circuits published in the tube manufacturer's literature, there to encourage people to use their tubes.
dave
A case in point is the PT2399. The datasheet has schematics for both echo and surround/delay circuits.
Quote from: Electron Tornado on July 09, 2012, 10:51:00 AM
A case in point is the PT2399. The datasheet has schematics for both echo and surround/delay circuits.
About this...
I'm seriously considering to issue a patent that will give me the sole right to apply power supply at pin 1....
^ granted... ;D
This whole thing just seem silly to me. So many mass produced pedals are near copies of other mass produced pedals. How many places can you get a fuzz face with a bias pot? I got a Bozz HyperFuzz a little while ago and was kind of shocked read in the instruction booklet that mode one modles the Dallas_arbiter FUZZ FACE, mode two the Maestro-FZ-1A, mode three the Octavia fuzz....they stated they're using different technology to do this but they actually claim to copy the brand and model. Did they cut a deal to be able to do this?
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on July 03, 2012, 11:03:39 AM
IMHO and my 2 cents...
If you can find whatever it is that you are building (even if it is not customized as you are saying) on eBay, craigslist, etc. for a certain amount.... that is about what you will get! :-\
Example...
If you are building a Phase 90 with depth mod, script/block mod, etc. then it may take you XXX amount of hours and materials which adds up... in your mind... to $75
The same non-modded Phase 90 is available on eBay for $35 shipped. (hypothetical)
Guess what.... you can expect to be offered $35 :-[
In this day and age of the internets, that is how it goes however, like the Colonel said, if you are making something that is rare or more in-depth or collectable, you may be rewarded ;D
At least that is what I have experienced! :icon_rolleyes:
$35 shipped....I wish that existed in Canada....but if your being requested to do a modded version you add the going rate for the mod. Is the $35 ebay price for a new or a used pedal? Your not building a used pedal your building from new parts so you charge the price for a new pedal plus the price of the mod...then the customer can decide if its worth it to them....cus otherwise is it really worth your time? not really.
Quote from: Canucker on July 11, 2012, 03:23:57 AM
$35 shipped....I wish that existed in Canada....but if your being requested to do a modded version you add the going rate for the mod. Is the $35 ebay price for a new or a used pedal? Your not building a used pedal your building from new parts so you charge the price for a new pedal plus the price of the mod...then the customer can decide if its worth it to them....cus otherwise is it really worth your time? not really.
The point I was trying to make is that you can indeed charge whatever price that you want for mods and/or pedals however, if the potential buyer can find the same "type" pedal on the flea-bay (modded or not... and varying conditions) then they buyer is only going to offer that much to you.
Sure... you can charge for the price of the new pedal, the price for the parts, and the price for your labor. Its not gonna matter if the buyer sees someone selling the same unmodded pedal for $40!!!! At this point, people dont care about your efforts and money invested. They only want the deal!!!
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on July 11, 2012, 06:56:41 AM
The point I was trying to make is that you can indeed charge whatever price that you want for mods and/or pedals however, if the potential buyer can find the same "type" pedal on the flea-bay (modded or not... and varying conditions) then they buyer is only going to offer that much to you.
Sure... you can charge for the price of the new pedal, the price for the parts, and the price for your labor. Its not gonna matter if the buyer sees someone selling the same unmodded pedal for $40!!!! At this point, people dont care about your efforts and money invested. They only want the deal!!!
This is true to a certain extent. It really depends on the particular pedal and what mods were done. There are other factors as well, such as how many others with the same mods are on the market, where you try to sell it, how good your advertising and marketing is. If someone wants to buy a pedal with the intent to mod it for re-sale, research the market for that pedal and be careful of how much you pay.
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on July 11, 2012, 06:56:41 AM
Quote from: Canucker on July 11, 2012, 03:23:57 AM
$35 shipped....I wish that existed in Canada....but if your being requested to do a modded version you add the going rate for the mod. Is the $35 ebay price for a new or a used pedal? Your not building a used pedal your building from new parts so you charge the price for a new pedal plus the price of the mod...then the customer can decide if its worth it to them....cus otherwise is it really worth your time? not really.
The point I was trying to make is that you can indeed charge whatever price that you want for mods and/or pedals however, if the potential buyer can find the same "type" pedal on the flea-bay (modded or not... and varying conditions) then they buyer is only going to offer that much to you.
Sure... you can charge for the price of the new pedal, the price for the parts, and the price for your labor. Its not gonna matter if the buyer sees someone selling the same unmodded pedal for $40!!!! At this point, people dont care about your efforts and money invested. They only want the deal!!!
I understand what your saying about people wanting a deal. I ran my own business for 15 years (nothing to do with this stuff but also custom work)... but if someone isn't willing to pay your asking price then your free to turn down they're offer, they're free to buy where ever they choose. You don't have to price match especially for something that isn't identical. Its up to the buyer to judge what the modded version is worth to them compared to the original. Its insane how many people don't value professional custom work....even crazier how many think it should be less expensive then mass produced stuff.
even crazier how many think it should be less expensive then mass produced stuff.
+1