Hey all, for those of you who have built an Aion Blueshift, have a DC-2, or are lucky enough to have a SDD-320 (!)

What is the deal with mono output vs summed stereo? Stereo output sounds amazing both recorded and live. The mono output sounds basically like a mild flanger...through my amp. When recording mono to my desktop one channel at a time (left, then right, leaving the other jack empty) and combining it into a single stereo track, it sounds noticeably different than the actual L/R signal from the pedal--more bassy. (It makes me wonder a bit if leaving either jack disconnected is just a single mono signal that I'm basically doubling?)

Any idea exactly how this thing works? The only reference I can find to mono operation is to only use the mono jack for mono output, and to leave the other one disconnected.

https://aionfx.com/app/files/docs/blueshift_documentation.pdf


Looking at the diagram, it looks like connecting the right stereo output grounds out a 9V signal to Q3, which I think is controlling whether or not the right signal gets mixed into the left one right before C49. But man, this is above my head.

I have no idea how to use this thing and I think I was expecting more of a traditional chorus...it sounds great for recording but for live I think I need to build a CE-2 next :> (I have an MXR234 but I haven't fallen in love with it as much as I was expecting)

Also, I would love to have a wet/dry blend on this pedal to get that very mildly modulated SRV sound, but the fact that all this fits into a single 125B is a miracle already, so I don't think it's reasonable to expect anything more...!

I can't speak to the Aion circuit, but I've been down this rabbit hole lately. True stereo chorus output to me means two separate chorus circuits, each complete with it's own delay line. That's not the case with most 'stereo' chorus circuits...most have the wet output and the either just the dry output on the other side or a phase-shifted version on the other side. The giveaway on these arrangements is an audible volume drop on one channel.

The thing that is so awesome about the Dimension C chorus is that it actually does the two distinct delay/modulation lines so the stereo output sounds incredibly good. I recently got the Boss DC-2w and it has proper stereo outputs plus stereo inputs. It's pretty much the best stereo spread I've heard, even though many folks don't consider the Dimension C to be true chorus.

I have a Roland Jazz Chorus 55 which I love and the chorus, whether in fixed or manual mode is really great--that classic JC sound. But it isn't true stereo. It sounds more like a Boss CE2 or CE3 with the attendant volume drop.

So, yeah I guess I didn't answer your question for you but hopefully the comparison of true stereo vs. faux stereo chorus makes some sense.

The DC-2 is, for my money, the king of chorus pedals.  By providing a delay signal that simultaneously swings both sharp and flat, via two counterswept paths, it creates the illusion of being what Aion describes as "motionless".  It's NOT motionless, but the countersweeping makes any pitch-wobble far less noticeable.  The other thing it does is that, where standard single-BBD chorus pedals provide ONE additional "voice", the DC-2 provides TWO additional voices. which is more like a true vocal chorus.  Ideally, it would be best if the two BBDs were independently swept by separate unsynced LFOs, that were sometimes sweeping oppositely, sometimes in-phase and sometimes a little differently.  You'd still get the "motionless" aspect, but the feel would be a little richer.

The TC 3RD Dimension is a mono version of the DC-2.  It does use two BBDs, but only provides for a pooled mono output via a single jack.  Previously, Behringer had marketed the CC300, which was a truer clone of the DC-2, and to my mind maybe even a little better.  It was true stereo (2 ins, 2 outs), and the radio buttons used were cheaper, permitting ANY combination of any number of buttons to be pressed, from none to all 4.  "No buttons" is my own favorite setting on mine, yielding a lovely slow Leslie-like swirl.

But now that you got me thinking about it, I have a couple of MN3011 tapped delay chips that I keep planning to turn into a kind of reduced version of the old A/DA Stereo Tapped Delay.  The original allowed one to assign the taps, at different numbers of non-arithmetically-related stages, to whatever "side" one wanted.  It occurred to me just now that pooling the taps on one channel and delaying them just a smidgen with a second BBD, using another unsynced LFO, might provide some exceptional rich chorus.  And in this case, you get not only two additional voices, but 6 of them.

Quote from: Mark Hammer on June 10, 2024, 04:56:51 PMBut new that you got me thinking about it, I have a couple of MN3011 tapped delay chips that I keep planning to turn into a kind of reduced version of the old A/DA Stereo Tapped Delay.  The original allowed one to assign the taps, at different numbers of non-arithmetically-related stages, to whatever "side" one wanted.  It occurred to me just now that pooling the taps on one channel and delaying them just a smidgen with a second BBD, using another unsynced LFO, might provide some exceptional rich chorus.  And in this case, you get not only two additional voices, but 6 of them.

Oh man, I just learned about the MN3011 a few days ago from looking up the Rockman pocket amp. The price! Insane. But if you got 'em I say use 'em, they do no one any service sitting there gathering dust. That sounds like a fantastic project, if maybe a bit over my head.

Quote from: dano12 on June 10, 2024, 04:49:30 PMI can't speak to the Aion circuit, but I've been down this rabbit hole lately. True stereo chorus output to me means two separate chorus circuits, each complete with it's own delay line. That's not the case with most 'stereo' chorus circuits...most have the wet output and the either just the dry output on the other side or a phase-shifted version on the other side. The giveaway on these arrangements is an audible volume drop on one channel.

The thing that is so awesome about the Dimension C chorus is that it actually does the two distinct delay/modulation lines so the stereo output sounds incredibly good. I recently got the Boss DC-2w and it has proper stereo outputs plus stereo inputs. It's pretty much the best stereo spread I've heard, even though many folks don't consider the Dimension C to be true chorus.

I have a Roland Jazz Chorus 55 which I love and the chorus, whether in fixed or manual mode is really great--that classic JC sound. But it isn't true stereo. It sounds more like a Boss CE2 or CE3 with the attendant volume drop.

So, yeah I guess I didn't answer your question for you but hopefully the comparison of true stereo vs. faux stereo chorus makes some sense.

This all tracks with what I've read (no pun intended). From what I've heard, the CE1 was basically just the circuit yoinked out of the JC 120 and is still one of the better regarded ones. Really getting tempted to build a CE-2 clone now.

I think the MXR 234 is basically a CE-2 with some extra tone controls, but it still seems...*different* and I'm not sure why. You can see ye ol 3102 and 3107 here though: https://stompboxelectronics.com/2023/07/18/repair-room-20-mxr-analog-chorus-repair/

Back to my question, I'm thinking the phasey sound might be normal on the lower presets--a few other people have mentioned it on various forums, to various degrees. It sounds like I should really be using this as a recording tool/stereo rig anyway. It seems wasted as a mono pedal...

When it comes to both chorus and flanging, small differences in delay range - a msec or two in this direction or that - can make a big difference in the resulting sound.  Most choruses are obliged to have the same basic elements, so their delay range is often what differentiates them from each other.

Quote from: tootsMcgee on June 10, 2024, 06:05:15 PMusing this as a recording tool/stereo rig anyway. It seems wasted as a mono pedal

I share that sentiment and am building a little stereo amp/cab specifically because of that:

Quote from: dano12 on June 11, 2024, 06:32:26 AM

Quote from: tootsMcgee on June 10, 2024, 06:05:15 PMusing this as a recording tool/stereo rig anyway. It seems wasted as a mono pedal

I share that sentiment and am building a little stereo amp/cab specifically because of that:

Woah, super clean build! Love the plexiglass front.

What drill press is that? I'm getting pretty tired of hand drilling my enclosures. I've gotten accurate at it but it takes ages.

1) Tayda is selling 30W/ch class D amplifier boards for $1.53USD.  They're really more like 10W/ch but for that price, fully assembled, helluva deal.

2) Appreciation of stereo is enhanced the further apart the speakers are.  I have a Fender SK20 "stereo chorus" amp.  It uses a pair of TDA2030 power-amp chips, feeding a pair of 8" speakers, whose apexes are maybe a foot apart, if that.  If you're anywhere less than 4 ft away from it, the stereo chorus sounds huge and delicious, just like a JC120.  Further away and it all turns to mono. Ideally, regardless of what speakers are used, aim for the maximum practicable distance between the two speakers, or perhaps angle the speakers a little so that listening from a little farther away doesn't "mon-ify" the stereo.

QuoteWhat drill press is that?

Exactly my thoughts. Is that home made? Or does it have a name/type? I've never seen one like it.

Quote from: tootsMcgee on June 11, 2024, 12:05:12 PMWhat drill press is that?

I don't know, but Google Image suggests:

https://www.amazon.com/NovelLife-Precision-Benchtop-Drilling-Portable/dp/B0BKZRD2P7
https://www.amazon.com/BERXOL-Benchtop-Portable-Electric-795/dp/B0CHSFN7S4
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Mini-Drill-Press-Precision-Table-Drilling-Machine-Portable-Benchtop-Driller-CNC-795-Motor-B10-Chuck-Tool/5167888274
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256806175089016.html
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256806922437535.html

Similar products under different names and on different markets. $70-$100. New (2024) has the motor mounted up, before it hung down as in Dano's image.

Quote from: tootsMcgee on June 11, 2024, 12:05:12 PMWhat drill press is that?

It's a small belt-driven unit from Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0BKZRD2P7/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I use it for light drilling on small parts, also PCBs and acrylic. I would not recommended it for enclosures, it lacks the power and ins't designed for that.

It's a really great augment to my proper bench drill press.

Quote from: Mark Hammer on June 11, 2024, 01:10:20 PM1.53USD. 

You can't afford not to at that price

Quote from: Mark Hammer on June 11, 2024, 01:10:20 PMAppreciation of stereo is enhanced the further apart the speakers are.

The same amp will power a pair of 8" cubes which should allow better separation. So much plywood, so little time.

We tend to overlook speaker spacing, as if it doesn't matter nearly as much as the speaker itself.  Years and years back, before many of you were born (seriously), our band decided to put together our own P.A. system.  We had the chops, and 2 of us had access to the departmental woodshop at the university.  We made a setup with some 15" Goodman's woofers in folded horn cabs, and tweeter cabs with a quartet of Philips dome tweeters in a 5-sided front-slanted cab, with 2 tweeters facing out in each direction for better dispersion.  When the tweeter cabs (we made two of each cab) sat atop the bass bin, it yielded the standard EV Voice-of-the-theatre strident screech (we had no plans to insert an EQ of any complexity in the path).  When we moved the tweeter bin a foot higher, though, all of a sudden it turned into a high-fi speaker system with relaxed and pleasing bandwidth, and none of the squawk.  Sit the tweeter bins back down, and again you want to plug your ears.  Speaker spacing matters.

Many corporate decisions about combo and similar amps seem to be made on the basis of how much lumber is required, and how much can be saved by doing this or that.  As consumers, we certainly appreciate the lower cost, not to mention the lower weight, and how compactness fosters storage/cartage convenience.  But speaker spacing CAN be important.  Not just with respect to stereo imaging, but also to sound image coherence, and what waves sum with what others or cancel what others.

Quote from: Mark Hammer on June 11, 2024, 01:10:20 PM1) Tayda is selling 30W/ch class D amplifier boards for $1.53USD.  They're really more like 10W/ch but for that price, fully assembled, helluva deal.

2) Appreciation of stereo is enhanced the further apart the speakers are.  I have a Fender SK20 "stereo chorus" amp.  It uses a pair of TDA2030 power-amp chips, feeding a pair of 8" speakers, whose apexes are maybe a foot apart, if that.  If you're anywhere less than 4 ft away from it, the stereo chorus sounds huge and delicious, just like a JC120.  Further away and it all turns to mono. Ideally, regardless of what speakers are used, aim for the maximum practicable distance between the two speakers, or perhaps angle the speakers a little so that listening from a little farther away doesn't "mon-ify" the stereo.

I know it's nothing like it at all but that looks like a mini JC-120 and I have an unquenchable need for it all of a sudden. I might keep an eye out for one locally.

Quote from: dano12 on June 12, 2024, 06:19:36 AMI use it for light drilling on small parts, also PCBs and acrylic. I would not recommended it for enclosures, it lacks the power and ins't designed for that.

Good to know, thanks! I'll stick with my hand drill for now and just suck it up and do a few at a time until I get the space for a press.

It's not a great amp, but it makes a terrific test bed for stereo FX.  Not immediately visible, the send/return loop is stereo.  So, for instance, I can set a phaser to wet-only, for vibrato, and feed that to only one side, providing the equivalent of separate wet/dry phaser outputs.  And since the wet chorus signal only goes to one side, that wet-phaser signal could be sent to the other channel.  If you have stereo pedals, you can forego the preamp section of the amp, and just feed those two outputs to the return jacks.

Overall, its more handy than it is good-sounding.  I was surprised such a thing existed when I stumbled onto it.  There are a number of "stereo chorus" amps out there, of various sizes and powers,  whether any of them provide the same patching options as this, I couldn't tell you.