First time builder

[Jmsteele187]

Ok, I've done quite a few mods over the past few years, but have never built any pedals from the ground up.  I Have almost all the parts I need to build a red llama.  Some how I managed to not order the 51pf caps, but they are on the way.  I also ordered a bread board, to meet the $5 min order, when I ordered the caps.  I'm planning on using the layout from generalguitargadgets, which I'm assuming is a proven layout.  Should I still breadboard the circuit first?  I have absolutely no experience breadboarding.

[bloxstompboxes]

If you plan on tweeking the circuit, test out mods, or learn more about how the circuit works, then I would say to breadboard it first. It's easier to test things out that way. Otherwise, there's no reason to bother with it.

[GibsonGM]

Yeah, what Blox said...other than to LEARN how to breadboard, you can do it however you like.   

Maybe find a very simple thing to start with, like a 1 transistor booster, for beginning breadboarding, and build the Llama to enjoy right now...

[Jmsteele187]

@Blox,  other than putting the input/output caps on switches with larger value caps, to allow for more bass, I'm not sure what kind of mods I can do to this circuit.  A tone knob might be nice, but I'm not sure how to go about it.

[bloxstompboxes]

You could try the tone control from the big muff pi. Very few components involved, but it is passive so you might lose volume. Look at this link. http://www.beavisaudio.com/techpages/BigMuffToneControl/

If you loose too much volume you could add an active tone control like ones found on the tube screamers.

[slashandburn]

Being somewhat new to all this myself, can I double check if an output buffer would be another solution to the volume lost by adding a passive tone control?

[Jmsteele187]

Thanks for the ideas for a tone knob.  I may consider adding one in.  Here's another question I have about the red llama build.  I also want to add a light to sound light plate, like Madbean did with his fleet beacon/ sea urchin.  How is the best way to incorporate the two circuits?  Should I run the input to the LTS straight from the input jack, or from the output of the red llama circuit?

[GibsonGM]

Not really, slash...the output buffer's real purpose is to 'condition' the signal - by changing the impedance - for the circuit which follows it.  What's really happening in a buffer is that it has the ability to source CURRENT (drive things) rather than outputting voltage.  This makes it ideal for matching impedance, or (simply put) the AC resistance between circuits (or parts of circuits).  

You can use a BUFFER to DRIVE a tone stack, yessir (as you would be sourcing current for it - it then cannot "load down" the thing that's driving it by "sucking" the voltage out of it due to its inherently low impedance - that impedance thing again - the buffer says "here ya go, take what you want, I don't care!" kind of)...but "output buffer" is sort of different, as it will come after the tone control(s) at the pedal's output.   To do the same job for the NEXT circuit following it.  But it can't "make up" lost voltage, as it has a very low gain, often less than unity!

*** In a perfect world, you'd DRIVE the tone control(s) with a buffer, and have a stage after it to recover any lost signal level ("recovery stage").    Usually that isn't done, too many stages, you see that mostly in amps and such, so...

We find ourselves with a clipping/gain stage, followed by the active tone control that DOES 'kick up' the lost voltage, which is in turn followed by the output buffer...which is what you see in a Tube Screamer or clone.      The 'buffers' in a TS are to, again, match the impedances at the in- and outputs better (the opamp isn't set up for high input impedance, and the buffer takes care of that.  The output buffer presents a low output impedance to whatever follows the pedal as well as better matching the tone section's output impedance to the next thing down the line).  Neither buffer is 'required', just good practice and contribute to the classic TS tone.

Many times you can just 'tack in' a tone control after a clipping/gain stage, and add a recovery stage (see last transistor of the Big Muff Pi for this), and you get away with it...

Good question!  

[GibsonGM]

Just saw your post, JM - if you want to play that much, go ahead and breadboard it
Whether you need to split the signal to avoid loading down the Llama input depends on the input impedance of the LTS circuit.  The higher the better.     I'd make the Llama and then just TRY it, won't hurt anything!   You have to build both circuits anyway.  Worst that'll happen is it'll make the Llama sound like the tone's been turned down or something.

[slashandburn]

Thank you Guitar Mike!  Sorry to hijack your thread JM!

[Jmsteele187]

Just saw your post, JM - if you want to play that much, go ahead and breadboard it
Whether you need to split the signal to avoid loading down the Llama input depends on the input impedance of the LTS circuit.  The higher the better.     I'd make the Llama and then just TRY it, won't hurt anything!   You have to build both circuits anyway.  Worst that'll happen is it'll make the Llama sound like the tone's been turned down or something.

How would I go about figuring out the input impedance of the LTS?  I plan on using this layout that deadastronaut put together.  Except, I'll be adapting it for perfboard instead of vero.
http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/chickpea/sound2light2.jpg.html

[GibsonGM]

YW, slash.  This is the place to learn, and there is a TON of good info here!  I remember just NOT GETTING IT about how to do exactly what you want to do, ha ha.  After a while you start to see commonality in designs, and you just start using that pattern yourself.

JM - don't even bother try to figure out anything.  Just tap off your input jack, see if it changes the sound of the Llama.  The lama should have a high input impedance, as it's a CD4049.  The LM386's typical 50K input Z might not be too bad.   If you have them both boarded, and tap off the input jack and notice a 'bad change' in the Llama, come back and we'll find you a way to BUFFER the 386    I think it'll be fine, tho.

[Jmsteele187]

Sounds good, I'll do that.  Thanks for the info.  Now I just have to play the waiting game with the mail man, till he delivers the rest of my parts.

[duck_arse]

the red llama uses a 4049/4069 etc hex inverter. if you string a resistor from input to output (with due care, unlike my typing) you get an amplifier. the llama uses 2 of the 6, so you have 4 left-over ...... whats? amplifiers? buffers for tone controls? led drivers for sound-to-light (maybe 3 channels)?

and you wonder if you need a breadboard? the world is your shellfish.

[Jmsteele187]

The question wasn't so much do I need a breadboard, as much as should I breadboard this project, since I'm already using a proven layout.  The breadboard is on its way, weather I need it or not.

[duck_arse]

breadboard it, yes. it may prove too hissy or something, you can "better" the values before commiting to solder.