SMALL CLONE DELAY TIME; stock 150pF cap?

[matt239]

Anybody know what the actual (or nominal) delay TIME is with the stock 150pF cap?

Or what it becomes with mod values: 89pF, or 220pF?

Or what it is in the CE-2?


- I'm guessing the time is a little longer in the Small Clone, vs. the CE-2.  ?

[Scruffie]

IIRC the Small clone clock sweeps from about 45-60khZ which is 11.3mS - 8.5mS but that was a long time ago I measured that so I could be off.

To get more precise you'll have to check the actual clock frequency with the stock and other caps.

[matt239]

Thanks!
- That's a little shorter than I would've guessed. I always thought the clone sounded different due in part to a longer delay time that most.
I thought it might be 20ms+

What would be a good way to measure?

Anybody else have some info?

[Scruffie]

As I said, could be off, it was over a year ago, those numbers just seemed familiar

Frequency counter on a DMM and pin 10 of the 4047 is the way to check, then 1024 / (hZ x 2)

[Mark Hammer]

Nah, most choruses will occupy some chunk of the 3-16msec range.  Once they get below that, it starts to sound a little more flanger-like.  And once they get above that, the delay starts to be audible.  Some might cover the 3-8msec range, another 5-12msec, and so on.  A significant share will use a 512-1024-stage BBD and a triangle wave LFO.  What tends to set them apart are the differences in what part of the delay range they use, and the rolloff of the lowpass filtering used for quiet performance in that delay range.  You'd be surprised at how big a difference in feel is created by sweeping from 3-8 instead of 4-10.

[matt239]

As I said, could be off, it was over a year ago, those numbers just seemed familiar

Frequency counter on a DMM and pin 10 of the 4047 is the way to check, then 1024 / (hZ x 2)

You're probably right. I was just making a wild guess.   11ms is still toward the longer time among choruses.
I don't have a fancy enough DMM to have a frequency counter..

Nah, most choruses will occupy some chunk of the 3-16msec range.  Once they get below that, it starts to sound a little more flanger-like.  And once they get above that, the delay starts to be audible.  Some might cover the 3-8msec range, another 5-12msec, and so on.  A significant share will use a 512-1024-stage BBD and a triangle wave LFO.  What tends to set them apart are the differences in what part of the delay range they use, and the rolloff of the lowpass filtering used for quiet performance in that delay range.  You'd be surprised at how big a difference in feel is created by sweeping from 3-8 instead of 4-10.

I feel like I can't really perceive a discrete echo until over 30ms. (assuming the display on my DLL is accurate.)
I like setting my DLL w/modulation, @ 24ms. You have to set the depth knob low to avoid wild de-tuning, but it sounds very lush.

[PRR]

> perceive a discrete echo until over 30ms.

Hass-Effect echo is in the 35mS range (many variables).

What Mark is saying is that much over 16mS the player feels the delay between the pluck and the sound. Like playing on one side of a large stage into an amp on the far other side. Other (perhaps less percussive) performers sometimes tolerate longer delays without complaint than direct-action guitar players.

You can learn to work-through quite huge delays. Switching a radio newscaster's headphones through a tape delay was tons of fun. The newbies would funk-out. Some old hands merely gave the engineer a dirty look, without a burble in their delivery.

[12Bass]

For bass, I tend to like using a delay time just short enough so that it is not a discernible repeat.  That might be in the 14 - 20 ms range.  However, sometimes a more "flangery" 2 - 5 ms delay can also sound nice.  It just depends on what frequency range you want to hear affected by the sweep.  Notch filtering moves up in frequency as the delay time gets shorter, while the sound gets more "warbley" as the delay time increases. 

[Mark Hammer]

Modulating delays that are just long enough to be perceptible AS delay is a big part of "the Pat Metheny sound".  Before it magically transformed to a state of disrepair, it was something I enjoyed doing with my old rackmount MXR digital delay.  I imagine it is easily achieved with any of the many PT2399-based delays with modulation.

12bass is absolutely correct about the location of any notches depending on the delay range.  But a person can have their cake and eat it by simply introducing a bit of high-pass filtering in the delay path such that, regardless of delay range, the wet signal is not chock-a-block with warbly bass.

I will qualify that by emphasizing that the same amount of modulation applied to a longer delay WILL get you a more wobbly wet signal.  However, if one judiciously applies some high-pass filtering to the wet signal, before mixing wet and dry, the most irritatingly wobbly bits get attenuated and moved to the psychological background, where they are not nearly as irritating.  This is a very useful trick for chorus optimized for bass, whatever the delay range used.  I nearly always stick a bass-cut toggle into a chorus build for just that reason.  Doesn't have to be fancy; just a switch that lets you drop the value of the last series cap in the delay path by around 80% or so.

[matt239]

Yeah, I'm kind of a modulated delay junky. (I have a few, & I'm building an Echo Base, & have an Abductor on order from Rob...)
I even like quite long delays with modulation.
You just set your modulation depth lower & lower with increasing delay times, but get the same net effect.
- It's also never mixed 50/50. I mix the delay in lower, just like you tend to do with any echo..

I really miss having a mix knob on choruses that don't have one. - It's a simple matter to add a wet level control to a d.i.y. build though.
It is also really lovely to EQ the wet signal separately on delays, reverb, chorus.

I have a love/hate thing with choruses, & I generally can't stand flangers. I tend to like it better & better, the longer the delay gets, until it's almost, but not quite, an echo. 
- Flanger & chorus can sound a little boxy, and kind of dull your attack.  - This can be a useful effect when you want it, but usually I try to avoid that.

- I like to try to get some of the lushness, & interest of chorus, but still preserve the feel/tone/dynamic, of my original signal. - Longer modulated delays do that for me, & when I use delay times in the chorus range, I like to mix the wet signal a bit lower, & cut some upper midrange out of it.

Small Clones have always been one of my favorite choruses. I'm sure it's because of the longish delay time, & the high frequency roll off.
I'm building one with a mix control, & wet tone controls.

I was just curious to know the nominal delay time of small clones. Do we think it's about 11 to 12ms? - If Scruffie is remembering correctly? Sounds reasonable to me.. 
Seems like the definitive answer must be out there. Or we could calculate it?

I may build one with a smidge longer delay...  - Or put TWO in a box, in parallel, with slightly different delay times, or THREE! for  a kind-of Tri-Chorus feel..
  - Uh-oh, feature creep...