Wah output buffer query for non true-bypass Crybaby

[ringworm]

I'm going the whole hog and am doing the true bypass mod, removing input buffer and adding output buffer (Fuzz Central's).
Does anyone know where I can hook up the +9v pad on the buffer to the crybaby pcb (rev F, G or H)? I never use a mains adaptor on the wah just a battery.
Also what fets are good for the buffer? I think I only have a 2N3819 and 2N7000 lying around.

[zombiwoof]

http://www.stinkfoot.se/andreas/diy/mods/dunlop.htm

Al

[ringworm]

Thanks for that Al. I think I'm gonna give the buffer a whirl without the TB mod and see how that goes first... save a switch and all that.

[ringworm]

Ok, need some pointers think I've got my switching all wrong.
Apologies for cannibalisation of original artists work, looking like this at the mo:

[zombiwoof]

Sorry, I just realized the link I gave you didn't really address your question, which was about the added buffer!.  Can't help you with the buffer question, but maybe someone else can.

Al

[ringworm]

I got it figured out. Please ignore the bad drawing. I realised I'd completely removed the clean input and also fixed the wiring from pot to buffer.
Neither of the other fets worked but I found a J201 and that has the buffer working but...
...sounds good on it's own but still sounds choppy w fuzz, maybe worse than it sounded with the input buffer/J201  .

[ringworm]

Question: how should the trimmer on this wah buffer function? http://fuzzcentral.ssguitar.com/mccoy/bufferlayout.gif
Mine reduces the volume of my wah from unity gain to silent, is this correct? I was under the impression that the buffer would provide a volume boost.

[Projectile]

Question: how should the trimmer on this wah buffer function? http://fuzzcentral.ssguitar.com/mccoy/bufferlayout.gif
Mine reduces the volume of my wah from unity gain to silent, is this correct? I was under the impression that the buffer would provide a volume boost.

When it says "slight" volume boost, it really does mean "slight." I wouldn't have bothered with the trimmer at all. It's going to be pretty close to unity gain without it.

[Projectile]

The input buffer on the newer crybabies work to eliminate the "tone suck" problems they had with the lower impedance input of the older models.
The "output buffer" (sort of a misnomer) mod goes towards isolating the output so it doesn't interact with the fuzz's input stage, and it  raises the output impedance to help prevent over-driving your fuzz box.

If you go with true bypass mod... your fuzz box will only see the guitar in bypass mode... but you'll still have a low impedence output when you switch it on.

If you remove the input buffer then you'll retrograde your unit by importing the tone sucking problem. Doesn't sound like a good idear to me.

I recommend leaving the crybaby's input buffer... and then add the output buffer mod. Bypass then becomes optional.

The Foxrox Wah Fuzz Buffer seems to be popular.

And then there is the DougH version...

Not true, if you want your fuzz to work alone after the wah when it's bypassed.  If you don't change the switch to TB, the input buffer will still be in the circuit when the wah is bypassed, causing problems if you use the fuzz alone.  I repeat, IMO the best thing to do is do the TB mod, add the output buffer, and disable the input buffer.  There will be no tonesucking if you remove the input buffer and do the TB mod, it's the fact that the board is still connected in bypass with the SPDT switch that causes the tonesuckage, with the TB mod it's a straight-through signal.  Then you need the output buffer, which is only switched on when the wah effect is engaged, if you want the wah to work well with fuzz after the wah.  There's two different problems to address here, and the input buffer only addresses one of them.

Al

Zombiwoof,

You are confusing electronic switching type circuits such as found on Boss and Ibanez pedals with the mechanical switching on the crybaby. In the Boss and Ibanez type circuits the buffer is in fact still in the signal path when the effects are switched off and they benefit from true bypass, but on the crybaby this is not the case. As others have stated, if you use a transistor with a high enough input impedance, the input buffer is effectively removed from the signal path when the effect is off and true bypass is not necessary. There will be no "tone sucking" and the wah will not effect any fuzz pedals you place after it. Period. 

[zombiwoof]

The input buffer on the newer crybabies work to eliminate the "tone suck" problems they had with the lower impedance input of the older models.
The "output buffer" (sort of a misnomer) mod goes towards isolating the output so it doesn't interact with the fuzz's input stage, and it  raises the output impedance to help prevent over-driving your fuzz box.

If you go with true bypass mod... your fuzz box will only see the guitar in bypass mode... but you'll still have a low impedence output when you switch it on.

If you remove the input buffer then you'll retrograde your unit by importing the tone sucking problem. Doesn't sound like a good idear to me.

I recommend leaving the crybaby's input buffer... and then add the output buffer mod. Bypass then becomes optional.

The Foxrox Wah Fuzz Buffer seems to be popular.

And then there is the DougH version...

Not true, if you want your fuzz to work alone after the wah when it's bypassed.  If you don't change the switch to TB, the input buffer will still be in the circuit when the wah is bypassed, causing problems if you use the fuzz alone.  I repeat, IMO the best thing to do is do the TB mod, add the output buffer, and disable the input buffer.  There will be no tonesucking if you remove the input buffer and do the TB mod, it's the fact that the board is still connected in bypass with the SPDT switch that causes the tonesuckage, with the TB mod it's a straight-through signal.  Then you need the output buffer, which is only switched on when the wah effect is engaged, if you want the wah to work well with fuzz after the wah.  There's two different problems to address here, and the input buffer only addresses one of them.

Al

Zombiwoof,

You are confusing electronic switching type circuits such as found on Boss and Ibanez pedals with the mechanical switching on the crybaby. In the Boss and Ibanez type circuits the buffer is in fact still in the signal path when the effects are switched off and they benefit from true bypass, but on the crybaby this is not the case. As others have stated, if you use a transistor with a high enough input impedance, the input buffer is effectively removed from the signal path when the effect is off and true bypass is not necessary. There will be no "tone sucking" and the wah will not effect any fuzz pedals you place after it. Period. 

I am not confused by the type of switching at all, and I don't have any idea what transistor Dunlop uses in the stock buffer (which is what we are discussing).  I don't have any wahs with the input buffer in them.   If what you are saying is true, why doesn't the stock input-buffered Dunlop Cry Baby work well with Fuzz Faces and the like after it?.

What I do know is that if you true bypass the wah and add the output buffer your wah will work with a fuzz after it.  Removing the input buffer is optional, but people have reported that if you leave it in there the wah can sound thin.  That's all I care about.

I hope the OP gets the result he wants (maybe he has, this is an ancient thread). 

Al

[ringworm]

I hope the OP gets the result he wants (maybe he has, this is an ancient thread). 

Al

I'm getting there... still not sure if I have the trimmer in the buffer correct, as I mentioned above any adjustments to the trimmer reduces the volume of my wah (all the way to zero if i keep turning) rather than making it louder. I've been very lazy with the mods... the wah is currently non-TBP with an output buffer but I have a spare switch lying around and am gonna pop it in soon enough and see how the TBP with output buffer fares.

[zombiwoof]

I hope the OP gets the result he wants (maybe he has, this is an ancient thread). 

Al

I'm getting there... still not sure if I have the trimmer in the buffer correct, as I mentioned above any adjustments to the trimmer reduces the volume of my wah (all the way to zero if i keep turning) rather than making it louder. I've been very lazy with the mods... the wah is currently non-TBP with an output buffer but I have a spare switch lying around and am gonna pop it in soon enough and see how the TBP with output buffer fares.

I'm sure you can change a component on the board to make it louder.  It seems you are getting the max volume possible with the trimmer.  Check the wah mod pages (or the GEO technology of wahs) to see which component change will give you more volume.  Did you buy a buffer board (like the FoxRox), or build your own?. 

Al

[ringworm]

Built my own from the FuzzCentral layout, link is a few posts above. Had a J201 in but got some 2N5457s and swapped it out.

[ilcaccillo]

You really should put in the true bypass switch with the buffer, and remove the input buffer components (or bypass them). 

The output buffer is only on when the wah effect is engaged, and off when the wah is in bypass.  This helps the wah work in front of the fuzz, and because the buffer is out of the circuit when the wah is bypassed, the fuzz will work right by itself. 

The input buffer was Dunlop's solution to the tonesuck the wah causes when it's bypassed, but doesn't help with the fuzz interaction.  If you put in the output buffer and not change to true bypass, and keep the input buffer, the input buffer will still be in the circuit when you bypass the wah, which means the fuzz will not work by itself after the wah.

You don't need both buffers if you change to true bypass and install the output buffer (and remove the input buffer), the TB and output buffer fix both problems, the tonesuck in bypass and the interaction with fuzzes after the wah. 

IMO that's what Dunlop should have done in the first place, but I guess they are too cheap for that.

Al

Old thread, but just would like to tell that this is the best and most relevant post and advice here

[thermionix]

Agreed.  I found this same thread when researching wah stuff last year.  Seems like some folks were misunderstanding each other on page 1.

[Fuzz-O-Rama]

Zombiwoof's reply is spot on, period. I cannot believe some of the replies that were posted. I will re-state Zombiwoof's reply as simply as I can.

1. Remove the input buffer components and add DPDT switch (Avail. Amazon, Dunlop original part). Input buffer component removal; Stinkfoot "True bypass for the Dunlop GCB-95 Crybaby".
2. Add Phillip Bryant's FET output buffer. Easily made with Vero/Vector board or purchase his.

When the Wah is not on, the guitar is connected directly to the Fuzz input, just as it should be.
When the Wah is on, the Fuzz works perfectly but is not interacting with the guitar's volume control impedance. Of course the volume still works. Clean-up is not necessary.

This modification works stellar and gives a hint of how Fuzz/Wah artists solved the Fuzz/Wah dilemma. Yes, there are a lot of secrets you were never privy to. You're welcome.

[ilcaccillo]

Yes,  I think zombiwoof was pretty clear and helpful, but seems a lot of people didn't understand the advice.

While we are at the topic of output buffers, I did the fuzz central output buffer, it works but I still have to try it with a fuzz face or similar pedal.

Did anyone ever tried or compared it with the Foxrox wha buffer or the Griffin Effects Wha buffer?

http://www.foxroxelectronics.com/FoxroxWahRetrofit.html

http://www.griffineffects.com/other-kits/194-wah-output-buffer-kit.html


The topologies are quite different form the fuzz central buffer, would like to know whats your experience with the different types of buffers in the Wha/Fuzz interaction

Thanks
Best Regards

Tiago