3PDT switches without a click..

[FUZZZZzzzz]

hi,

a friend of mine wants a truebypass feedbackloop. but he wants to have two 3pdt switches without the clicking noise when you switch it on..
something like the moog switches:


does anyone know where to find them?

[Processaurus]

Definitely.  The KATCHUNK of 3pdt's are distracting with mellower, quiet music performances.  The switch moog uses is a whole can of worms, because it isn't a mechanical bypass switch, it is a momentary switch that goes on to control some electronics that do the bypass.  Look up "wicked switches" at the Tone God's site, or "bypass with 4053" at geofex.com, if you aren't scared off by that.  Or the momentary switch could be used to control a latching relay circuit.

Those exact switches like the moog are available at small bear electronics, and are nice and smooth.

[gtr2]

http://www.jackdeville.com/clickless_switch.php

You'll pay for them though...

[FUZZZZzzzz]

thanks for the directions.. seems harder then i thought even banzaimusic dont carry them.

[Mark Hammer]

If you take a stompswitch apart, you'll see why it is nigh impossible to have a quiet switch, given the mechanism employed.  What you hear as click is essentially the shock of transitioning from one physical "posture" to another.

I haven't done any acoustic research on such switches, and I can't imagine there are massive R&D teams studying it either, considering how many silent and inexpensive alternatives there are.  That being said, there are essentially 4 sources of noise/click in the switch.

1) The sound of the inner rocker contact being forced up against the inner portion of the solder lug.  Metal on metal making rapid physical contact.

2) The sound of the plastic actuator that moves the rocker contact slipping, losing physical contact with one side, and pushing on the rocker contact.  As plastic on metal, the quietest of the 4 sources, I would imagine.

3) The tap of the shaft of the switch against the inside of the collet (threaded part) when the shock of abrupt rocker contact movement is transferred upwards. There has to be at least some gap between that shaft and the collet it moves through, to reduce friction when stepping.  Thay "play" around the actuator shaft permits some wiggle room, though, and can result in physical tapping.  If you've ever seen a 40 year-old stompswitch, you'll know that such wiggle-room accumulates/increases over time.

4) The "mushroom head" of the actuator striking the top of the collet when you've stepped down all the way.

Now, what could be done to make such switches quieter?  One obvious change is to dab a bit of something plastic-ey or rubbery around the top edge of the collet, after installation, to absorb the shock of the actuator mushroom head hitting it.  A second might be to line the inner surface of the collet, or maybe the outer surface of the plunger shaft, or both, with teflon or something similar, that could provide ease of vertical movement but absorb any mechanical vibration upon contact.  It is hard for me to imagine any solution to the noise produced by #1 and #2 above.  The solutions I proposed here would likely increase the cost of the switch measurably, which is why you won't see them anytime soon.

As noted, many manufacturers (Moogerfooger, Visual Sound, TC Electronics, T-Rex, et al.) have simply elected to use an actuator that provides some of the feel and appearance of a stompswitch, without the complications, sonic, electronic, and lifespan.

[MikeH]

Zvex offers 'soft touch' 3pdts as an upgrade (or at least he used to) that were quieter and had a nice soft action to them.  I asked where he got them and he told me, but the companys minimum order was- Eh, I don't really remember... I think in the thousands.  And they were really expensive too.

[MikeH]

Actually, here's the thread: http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=56157.0

[edvard]

Hmmm... From the picture at the head of http://www.clicklesstruebypass.com/ we can see:

1 8-pin DIP
- I'd say a 555 wired as a flip-flop (anybody got a circuit for that?), although Micrel makes 8-pin f-f's: link
1 Black box numbered TQ2-L-5V ATQ219
- This is a 5v DPDT relay made by Panasonic. Couldn't find it at Mouser, Digi-Key, or Allied.
2 Box caps
- .1 uf and 10n
1 Electrolytic

2 Transistors

4 Resistors


1 Diode

Shouldn't be too hard, now should it?
Maybe I should dig back into that Relay thread from a few weeks ago...

[ianmgull]

I remember a while back someone considering hacking a 3PDT in half and taking pictures of it. Soooo.... hmmmm...... Anyone feel like sacrificing a switch for the good of the community?? 

[tiges_ tendres]

Hmmm... From the picture at the head of http://www.clicklesstruebypass.com/ we can see:

1 8-pin DIP
- I'd say a 555 wired as a flip-flop (anybody got a circuit for that?), although Micrel makes 8-pin f-f's: link
1 Black box numbered TQ2-L-5V ATQ219
- This is a 5v DPDT relay made by Panasonic. Couldn't find it at Mouser, Digi-Key, or Allied.
2 Box caps
- .1 uf and 10n
1 Electrolytic

2 Transistors

4 Resistors


1 Diode

Shouldn't be too hard, now should it?
Maybe I should dig back into that Relay thread from a few weeks ago...

It's not a 555, its a pic programmed chip so that if the power goes out, it automatically bypasses.

Jack Orman has a similar project for this too.

[Mark Hammer]

It's not a 555, its a pic programmed chip so that if the power goes out, it automatically bypasses.

Jack Orman has a similar project for this too.

In fact one of the very virtues of traditional "true bypass" switching was that it permitted one to have an unaffected bypass if the power ever disappeared; something that, for all its other virtues, you can't normally do with FET-based switching.  Of course, even though it is a nice aspect, the "power-down advantage" is something which crops up a good deal LESS frequently than the assorted advantages of electronic buffered switching.

[edvard]

Wow, you need a whole PIC for that?

[tiges_ tendres]

Wow, you need a whole PIC for that?

http://www.muzique.com/news/true-bypass-with-relay/

Apparently so!

[Galego]

Wow, you need a whole PIC for that?

Yeah, with a pic they could have made it work so that you just clapped your hands and it switches on/off. Or maybe a random function, where the pedal would turn on and off as it pleased. 

[edvard]

OK, it looks like the PIC is programmed to do all the toggling and switch debouncing, etc, so that makes sense.
Either way, it looks like relay bypassing is less work than I thought, I'm going to look further into this...

Where the heck do you get those relays anyway?

[defaced]

Interesting circuit.  Can't say I'd bother with a latching relay though, but I kinda think the battery thing is silly too.  Would be super easy to duplicate.  

Omron G5V relays are very common inside amplifiers for switching.  Mouser sells them. Don't know if they do latching or not.  The G5V are non-latching.

You can also get alternate action switching with a TTL for those that can't program MCUs.  The circuit I linked to below is bistable, so don't think it'd work for a latching relay, but does work for non-latching.  That's a momentary switch in the schematic.  I don't seem to recall the values of R1, 5 and C1.  I need to find my TTL cookbook for that.  Maybe 1k, 10k and 1u.  You'd only want to use this with a circuit powered from a power supply.  Relay currents are not nice at 5v.  

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/7500/alternateactionclip.png

Anyone see why you couldn't do the same thing with transistors if you had to?  Not the most efficient way, but seems to me it'd work.  

[edvard]

That looks very similar to the flip-flop section of the DOD switch, first described by DOD founder David DiFrancesco in the June 1983 issue of Polyphony magazine: link
Boss does the same thing with transistors, there's an excellent article on it here: link

[Bitches Love My Switches]

For those looking for a soft touch/soft click 3PDT I have them the store https://lovemyswitches.com/3pdt-latched-foot-switch-soft-click/

They're made in small batches in Japan so the price reflects that. 

[jamesmarkjackson1979]

TH Customs do several kits for relay based switches

http://diy.thcustom.com/shop/nope-relay-true-bypass-kit/#comment-28858

And there are others

https://www.mammothelectronics.com/products/click-less-true-bypass-relay-module-kit

http://www.stompville.co.uk/shop/6-true-bypass-relay-kit.html