Prices and BBD reliability question

[jimbob]

I was thinking about building a Smallstone but i went to smallbear to chk prices and couldnt believe how  expensive the parts are. Mayby im a cheapo but man, thats some money. I ussually only order from steve and always thought his prices were very reasonable--but is this kinda thing normal? what are so special about these parts to command such a price? And it also says--NOS-new old stock no warrenty--should i be worried about buying a 16.00 $ part that may or may not work? IS this Smallstone build really worth it? an opinion / i know.

[Brian Marshall]

You can buy a new RI small clone for about $80.

[R.G.]

I'm confused - there are no BBDs in a small stone. Which IC are you thinking about?

[jimbob]

oops--my mistake..i meant the ad-3208--still though! $$$$$$$$$

[ExpAnonColin]

Do you mean the BL3208/MN3208?  That's the BBD.  I thought small clones used MN3207.  They're both very cheap.

-Colin

[george]

$10 for a pair of BL3208's isn't bad, compared to trying to buy an AD-9, DM-2 or DM-3 off of ebay (at least $150) ...

of course your going to need 2 NE571 (another $10) other components, pots a case etc but I expect you can still build one for less than $150

CA3094Es for a Small Stone are dear but what do you expect, they don't make them anymore and they're probably rare as rocking horse poo ...

[jimbob]

the small stone parts seem pretty cheap--the delay parts are=15.95 per ic--im just used to building cheaper parts/effects. Not complaining rather curious is all..in fact im sure ill eventually pay the price for these parts..Im used to seeing parts/ic's like jrc4558 for 40n cents than i see a part for 15.95 and was stunned..Im sure its still a hell of a lot cheaper than buying the completed original..atleast hes even able to get these..

[george]

in fact im sure ill eventually pay the price for these parts..

go on - you know you want to ...  :twisted:  

Im used to seeing parts/ic's like jrc4558 for 40n cents

yeah, you should the other thread in this forum about the $50 JRC4558 on ebay ....

[Mark Hammer]

A few things to consider about BBDs....

1) Like any LSI chip (and with 4096 or even 2048 stages, there is a whole lot more stuff on a BBD than there is on a quad op-amp or compandor chip), the more you try and pack onto it, the more expensive it is to produce, not least because  - just like CPUs - there is a high rejection rate.

2) The overwhelming majority of BBDs are essentially out of production for several years now, and a great deal of the NOS supplies that may have been stashed around the world seem to have been bought up by a few select pedal manufacturers.  This means that whatever is left over is: a) not the sort of thing that a distributor can turn around and return to the chip manufacturer for a replacement, and b) there are plenty of customers who are willing to pay large sums because the component enables them to revive a prized piece of equipment.

3) Other than maybe the case and stompswitch, the BBD is probably the single most expensive part in any analog delay pedal.  Always has been, always will be.

Steve's prices ARE reasonable.  On the other hand, if you are both lucky and a strategic shopper, it is always possible to find a lower price on *anything*, no matter who your normal retailer is.  Remember that: a) it's Steve's livelihood now (i.e., not a cottage business anymore), b) his sign does not say "Billions and billions served", and c) he does adjust his prices depending on what things cost him, and to his credit those price changes go in *either* direction.  I know he actively searches out better deals for folks and when he finds them they become available.

But this is not about Steve/SBE.  It's about the cost of BBDs and pedals.

For a while now, I have been advising people interested in building longer delays to seriously consider abandoning analog.  Not because it is bad or not as good, but because the difference between sound quality of the Princeton or Holtek delay chips, and any analog delay chip/s, once you factor in all the usual lowpass filtering, is negligible, if even there at all.  The difference between cost and availability of current production digital delay chips, and analog ones is substantial, and when you think how easy and cheap it is to get much longer delays from the digital units (I get 800msec from a Holtek chip I bought for $5 at Radio Shack), unless you somehow stumble onto a hidden stash at an unsuspecting retailer, the wise thing to do is to leave the large capacity chips like SAD4096's, R5101s, and MN3005/3205s to those who need them to bring a vintage piece back to life for someone who depends on it.

If you want to talk about chip inflation, around 1980 0r 81, I bought a 5-pack of SSM2040 filter chips from a guy in Dallas who was selling them at 5 for $10 (the ad can be seen in DEVICE at my site).  *When available*, they currently sell for around $50-60 each.  The reason?  Because it was used on the Prophet 5 synth and folks who have one love them and will spend just about any amount to keep them alive.  They can make terrific phasers, as the schematics in DEVICE demonstrate, and as companies like TC Electronics amply demonstrated, but I think I can make a decent phaser other ways, and would prefer not to let themgo to waste on my projects.

[jimbob]

Thanks all!!~

[pippas]

If you want to talk about chip inflation, around 1980 0r 81, I bought a 5-pack of SSM2040 filter chips from a guy in Dallas who was selling them at 5 for $10 (the ad can be seen in DEVICE at my site).  *When available*, they currently sell for around $50-60 each.  The reason?  Because it was used on the Prophet 5 synth and folks who have one love them and will spend just about any amount to keep them alive.  They can make terrific phasers, as the schematics in DEVICE demonstrate, and as companies like TC Electronics amply demonstrated, but I think I can make a decent phaser other ways, and would prefer not to let themgo to waste on my projects.

HOW much??? - I've still got a tube of these things left over from a home built synth project I did in 1981 - I was going to bin them!

Time to think again, perhaps?

[Mark Hammer]

I imagine you could e-bay them and make yourself a wealthy man.  There are places that specialize in finding suitable buyers for them.  For example, Synth-Tech in Fort Worth, Texas sells CEM and SSM chips....when they can find them http://www.synthtech.com/cems.html

They have a list of what synths use what chips here http://www.synthtech.com/cem/cemsynth.html

Depending on how many you have, you may want to keep some for yourself and attempt some of the VC-Phaser projects in DEVICE (hammer.ampage.org) or Thomas Henry's "Smooth Phaser" project which uses a hypertriangular LFO and a SSM2040.  On the other hand, my sense is that the chip is likely wasted on a phaser in terms of tone alone, where it wouldn't be expected to deliver much more than a Small Stone or Ross 13600-based phaser would.  It would shine more in 4-pole filter situations or those circumstances where you really need the flexibility of a multi-mode reconfigurable filter in a small package.

I have 4 working ones, but I keep waffling over whether to keep 'em or sell 'em.

[pippas]

Mark - thanks for the links - think I'd better have a closer look at what's still considered valuable!

I worked as a service tech for a music company in the 1970's, and we used to fix a whole pile of stuff  - like Hammond organs, Leslie speakers ,Moog synths, MXR pedals..... etc - just 'regular' kit then!

When they closed down I ended up with a shed load of spares that seemed to be virtually worthless as the music world went 'digital' - binned most of them about 10 years ago!!!

NOW I come onto sites like this and find that some of that kit is still highly regarded, much rarer, and in some cases worth money.

Quietly crying in a corner at the moment!!!

Thanks again for your reply.

[Mark Hammer]

Well if you want, you can be my new "best friend".  :wink:

[Mark Hammer]

By the way, you wouldn't happen to have any CEM chips, would you?

[pippas]

Not any more!!! (crying is louder now)  -  had some CEM 3340's that I used for the synth I mentioned - got binned with all the rest about 10 years ago!!

All I kept was a Moog Prodigy mono synth , a Boss CE2 chorus pedal and a small tube of SSM2040s. :cry: (there are actually only 8 of them - the rest of the tube was filled with 4066's for some reason I forget now) :cry:  :cry:

If only i'd known!! - was out of the business by then, and was convinced everything was 'digital' -  I even binned about a dozen TDA1022 bbd's!!!

BTW - I read your comments in another thread about the clipping from the opamp in an MXR Distortion+ - that brought back some memories - I remember comparing an original ( with germanium diodes) with a clone that someone knocked up using a CA3140 opamp, and 1N4148's -  absolutely no contest - MXR knew what they were doing