Building for profit vs. Charging for labor & time. What's the difference?

[Torchy]

I build pedals for friends and friends-of-friends. I charge money for the builds for the cost of components and hardware (switch/box) etc. This is itemised and non-negotiable. The only charge I add is for painting/decals etc because that is my own work.

[nelson]

Here is an ambigious area.

What about barter?

I traded an opamp muff and an Ugly face for a vintage polyphase.

Is that profit?

Is that ethical?

I am not sure. I have wanted an original polyphase for years and I didnt have the money.

[Mark Hammer]

This is going to be a fairly narrowly circumscribed argument, but let's distinguish between what it would cost ME to *have* the parts, and what it would cost YOU to *buy* the parts.  I try to be frugal with my hobbies, so I tend to buy things when I find them cheap, and do what I can to cut costs.  If I find a chassis I can use for $2, with a bit of rejigging, I use it.  If I find a surplus board with a bunch of chips and caps on it that are potentially useful, I buy the board and put in the labour to salvage the parts.  If I get given a busted piece of equipment and there are salvageable parts, I put the remains at the end of my driveway at some point.  Sometimes, stuff hangs around for ages.  I picked up some MN3207/MN3102 sets for $1.50 a chip a couple years ago and they are still waiting for a purpose in life, just like those SSM2040s I got cheap in 1982.  Sometimes people just give me stuff out of the kindness of their hearts (and I will once again thank my many benefactors here whose generosity always seems disproportionate to me).

In short, if approached as simply parts/inventory, my "cost" neglects the time and effort it took to score them at a decent price, the time and effort involved in learning how to use them or even recognize them when they came available, and all the materials needed to acquire the skill to make good use of them.  I'm not saying I'm a business that needs to recoup overhead and operating costs, but if YOU were to simply try and buy all those parts, doubtless it would end up costing you many times more than what they seem to cost me on the sales slip.  But that's not exactly what they cost me, is it?

So, what should I charge YOU?  I keep meaning to put a bunch of my pedals up for sale locally (my opening salesline was going to be "My kid needs college tuition more than you do.  Buy my pedals."), but every time I walk into music stores and see something like a Fab Flanger for $20, I kind of wonder if I have priced something I made fairly.  At the same time, I know how much work I put into a pedal and the last thing I want is to feel *bitter* about how little someone paid me to make it.  Of course, at the same time, I think "Well how much could THEY sell it for if it lacks any name recognition?  How professional a pedal is it in their eyes?  How much more could they buy for the same money or maybe even just a little more?".  Do I like analog?  Sure.  If I charged somebody $80 for a one-off that does one or two things reasonably well, is that $80 less they have to spend on a ZOOM or Digitech pedal that does 20 times as much for maybe $10-20 more? 

So, all I ask is that I don't feel screwed over.  I think about what it might cost THEM to put the same thing together, starting from scratch, and without the inventory of bulk-purchased components.  My cost might be $23.58, because I bought 10 or 25 of something a long time ago, but THEIR cost might well be $75 if they had to buy one of each part now.  In that sense, I *am* only charging them "for parts", but really and truly it includes my labour, knowledge, and patience in getting the parts.

Of course, there is a difference between something a person commissions, and simply clearing out your shelves to make room for new stuff.  And there is also a difference between "making something for a friend" (the way so many here have mentioned making a pedal for a birthday or Christmas present for somebody), and making something for a stranger or person who sees what you have and asks "Where'd you get that?  Really?  Do you think you'd be able to make one for me like that?".  Here, the request is kind of an invasion of your time, in which case you ought to be compensated for it fairly.  What "fairly" amounts to, though, would depend on whether you're Pete Cornish, or Joe Blow, on whether you are a starving musician, someone with a 3-bedroom home and a decent job, or a student who really ought to be more focussed on boning up for that calculus exam.

[nag hammadi]

i think it boils down to this:

do what you think is right.  ask if in doubt.

i they say it is cool, it is cool.

no one is going to pay more for the pedal that you made for them than what they think it is worth to them.

everybody is happy.

whay such a stink?

make sure whoever did the layout or whatever is cool with it, then stop worrying about it.

[RaceDriver205]

ZOOM or Digitech pedal that does 20 times as much

My god, has anyone played through those cheaper DSP multifx pedals? I went in the shop and tried one, and the guitar started yelling at me: "Enough of this madness! I wasn't made to churn out this unlistenable filth! Chuck that thing in the bin NOW!".
Er, my point is they don't sound good. They're only good for a drum machine and a tuner.

This is my attitude to this all:
"Uncle Sam always brought wonderfull cakes to family parties. The family would always comment on how generous he was in bringing these big expensive cakes for everyone to enjoy. His nephew asked him, "Why do you always bring such nice cakes, Uncle?". He replied, "Why, so I get a piece of course!".

The moral of the story is, if you've gone and got yourself something nice that can be shared around, share it around! Does anyone go and design layouts and circuits, and not use them themselves? I hope not! Thats mad!
If your not deliberately going to use your layouts to make money, let someone else!
Again, charge what you want.

[nelson]

Does anyone go and design layouts and circuits, and not use them themselves? I hope not! Thats mad!
If your not deliberately going to use your layouts to make money, let someone else!
Again, charge what you want.

I have released layouts I havent used myself, yet.