Japanese book is A-OK, says author

[Peter Snowberg]

I've said it before but I'll say it again....

Print media falls into a different category than physical circuits. You can't fax a pedal to somebody.

Colin, your attitude about this stuff is EXACTLY why I don't freely give out my schematics and/or code in most cases.      

-Peter

[ExpAnonColin]

I've said it before but I'll say it again....

Print media falls into a different category than physical circuits. You can't fax a pedal to somebody.

Colin, your attitude about this stuff is EXACTLY why I don't freely give out my schematics and/or code in most cases.      

-Peter

So then I'll delete the entire schematics and datasheet archive, save 10 or so files, because they're the only ones I have asked permission to post?

That's the part I don't understand.

-Colin

[Mark Hammer]

Colin,

Let's say your girlfriend or your *mom* gets a little drunk at some point and someone takes some naughty pictures of her (apologies for the crudeness of the examples).  The pictures get posted somewhere.  You (or whomever) finds out and demands they be taken down.  They are, but is that the end of it?  Not likely.  The net is a barn door that, once open, is VERY hard to close because it is an international one and there is no accounting for the behaviour of those who have had electronic access to the materials, no matter how briefly and no matter how conscientious the original poster is.

I certainly can't wag a finger because, quite honestly, it would be a double standard on my part.  I think the point Peter and Jun are trying to make, though, is that if there IS a concern over permission, AND only one of the authors has consented, then indicating one will post something until such time as they are politely asked to remove it (and politely comply with the request) is pretty much as good as NEVER taking it down.

Again, this is certainly not a scolding, because I know I deserve one myself.  But I think it is the point Peter is trying to make.

I will say that I'm familiar with the book and not all of the projects are winners.  What you are able to post may well be the most appealing content to people here, so there is nothing really substantial lost by posting some and holding back the rest.

[ExpAnonColin]

Mark,

I understand your point completely, and it is sort of "too late".  My point that I'm making is that I would also be creating a great double standard if I was to delete the ones that I don't have the author's permission for but keep up all the various other projects from other sites.  Then the question becomes "is it really OK to copy online designs and not scanned designs?"

I guess my main point is that morals vary from person to person.  If we're all going to be terribly strict about it, then we aren't going to get very far in terms of the sharing of out of print information.  I was only trying to do a service to those of us on the board who want more schematics.  I do understand that it's immoral and unethical and possibly quite illegal, but really that's not going to stop me, because I'm only trying to help. I'm not selling the schematics, and I'm not trying to do any harm.  In the case that someone posted nude pictures of my girlfriend, they probably WOULD be doing this person harm.

Really guys, I'm just sort of tired of the ongoing ethical debate.  I'll try to do what I can to please you, but really, it's impossible to draw any sort of line that makes sense.  Equally as nonsensical is arguing about where the line should be drawn, I mean, we could go on for hours.  I think it really boils down to, either I post my own designs on my site and nothing else, and do a great inservice to any of you all who enjoyed having the schematics there to download, OR, I could go on posting schematics within reason that are more simple designs, the sort of thing you'd find in datasheets, like a dual OA LFO.

Ethics is a sticky topic, and I don't like sticky topics, so I guess I should probably stop being unethical... time to go prune the schematics archive, I guess.

-Colin

[Peter Snowberg]

Thank you Mark, you crystallized my thoughts eloquently.

Colin, you'll see notices posted on many schematics saying something about "permission refused to host elsewhere". It's sad that this is required, but it is in order to get people to listen.

I do understand that it's immoral and unethical and possibly quite illegal, but really that's not going to stop me, because I'm only trying to help.

Ever hear the phrase, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" ?

The metaphor is the important part there, not the belief system that it was spawned within.

Again, your attitude is why I WILL NOT post my work. Now how is that helping anybody? It's not.

If a given schematic has any information about the origin of that drawing, you need permission for sure. That is where copyright law comes into play. You didn't make it. If it says "Public Domain", then please by all means post it to your site.

Take care,
-Peter

[ExpAnonColin]

So basically you're posing the question, "Should you be unethical and help out some guys on the forum, or even be ethical and post your designs to help out some other guys, or should you be ethical and keep your designs to yourselves and slow the passing of information?"

As far as my beliefs go, because in the disclaimer before the archives I clearly states that I do NOT claim ANY ownership over ANY of the files from other sites, and I do not make them seem to be my own or sell them in any way, I honestly think that the difference between having one design on one site and the same design on another, given that one site claims direct ownership and the other site clearly states that the schematics are not it's own, and having it on one site alone is nothing but the number of sites with the schematic.

However, in the case of the japanese book I see your point and will now delete the file to help alleviate any future useless arguments.

-Colin

[puretube]

Hey Colin (in a friendly voice...): nobody here, and nobody from out-side would blame you or fame you for being the author of the stuff you posted; and for sure, a lot of people appreciate the fact that you did so;
and it`s not about envying you might claim that you were the "originator", or insinuating that you might make a "fortune" by publishing the stuff.

It`s the plain fact, that if s.th. (=something, b.t.w.,)
has been online (no matter for how long),
it`s of not much interest anymore to possibly make some money out of it
for the ones that need to make money out of it.
(ferinstance by contributing to a book...).

So, the complaint is not "giving it to all",
but "stealing it from one".

[ExpAnonColin]

Puretube, I'm not sure I understand you-Are you saying that the files I have on the site aren't worth posting because they wouldn't make any money if I had tried to make money with them?

Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying.

-Colin

[Peter Snowberg]

As far as my beliefs go, because in the disclaimer before the archives I clearly states that I do NOT claim ANY ownership over ANY of the files from other sites, and I do not make them seem to be my own or sell them in any way, I honestly think that the difference between having one design on one site and the same design on another, given that one site claims direct ownership and the other site clearly states that the schematics are not it's own, and having it on one site alone is nothing but the number of sites with the schematic.
-Colin

You lost me in the wording there.

I think I know where you were going, but I'm not sure.

Maybe you don't see a difference because you don't have a lot of experience yet. I don't say that as a put-down at all. I say it because at 16 years old, you probably haven't entered the work force as a designer yet. Just wait 'till you have your intellectual property stolen and get back to me about your feelings then. Maybe nothing will change, maybe you will be upset, or maybe you will take massive amounts of psychedelic drugs and determine that the whole concept of I.P. is B.S. and we should all live in a commune. I don't know. Even hippy communes don’t work without respect.

If you want to be an archive for other people's work, you already know the steps. Just keep making them and I wish you maximum success in that endeavor.

take care,
-Peter

[Mike Burgundy]

*nice*

[ExpAnonColin]

OK, let me see if I can reword (you're right, what a terrible runon)

I was laying out 2 scenarios:

1)
1 site, by the owner of the file hosts the file.
Another site hosts the same file but does not claim ownership and clearly states it's not theres.

2)
1 site, by the owner of the file hosts the file.

In the first scenario, the second site is, in a beaurocratic sense, being illegal.  BUT, because of the fact that they do not claim ownership and clearly states it's not they'res, from an ethical standpoint (at least mine) they are not at fault.  They are simply raising accesibility to the file.

In the second scenario, that's the idea situation, but only the people who go to the one site have access to the file.

I don't think that posting a simple bandpass filter design that can be found in many datasheets that has been drawn up by someone else is nearly as big of a deal as you are making it out to be.  I am not disrespecting or attacking the drawer of the schematic in any way.

-Colin

[puretube]

- no it was not that - sorry, kinda late here... bedtime/xplain tamorra

NO BAD FEELINGS....



(but still serious opinions)

[Peter Snowberg]

What you're talking about is covered under copyright law under the heading of "fair use". You can find many of the specifics very easily on the web these days by searching for US Title 17. Fair use is in chapter 1 section 107, IIRC.

Your compilation of other people's schematics falls greatly under the definition of being a non-profit library, but this is the area where the amount of funding you have for an attorney actually sets what you can and can't get away with.

In addition to your existing disclaimer, you may want to add that you are posting them under "fair use" guidelines. (just make triple sure that you actually are)

Legally you may be in the clear, but will I contribute my designs to your library? After this thread.... no. Will I be any looser about posting my code or schematics, No. Quite to the contrary.... you make me want to share some information even less. I will be very sure to add a notice saying "permission refused to host this schematic elsewhere" to anything I do post. This is a sad thing for this hippy-dippy engineer.

I'm not talking about simple bandpass filters here, you don't need to appoint yourself as "librarian for the world", and LINKS allow you to share that information indirectly.

Take care,
-Peter

[ExpAnonColin]

Well, if this has made you decide even more not to post any of your designs, then I'm very sorry that it makes you feel that way.

-Colin

[troubledtom]

colin................. !!!!!!    you phucking bad ass !!!!!!!!!!!!!
      peace to YOU!!!!!!
            - tom
ps: after all the bitch'n and shit [ from other people ] you come up smell'n like a rose!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :twisted:

[Mark Hammer]

A little over a 15 months ago,  I started asking people here (well, the old version of "here") and at Ampage to send me their sentiments, guidelines, and rationale for the posting of schematics and other "at-issue" content.  My intent was to put them together into a sort of pros and cons FAQ document that would not take any particular stance, but simply summarize as many reasonable arguments as people had presented so that someone pondering whether they ought to or ought not to post something could walk through it, as sort of a checklist, and do what they did after having thought through everyone's side of the debate.  My goal was not to corner people into adopting one view, but to be thoughtful about it.

You haven't seen the FAQ, have you?  That's because the sheer volume of factors to list made it such a huge undertaking that it simply fell into the 3rd tier to-do basket.  Big, big, project (bigger than a Storm-Tide Flanger!).

Peter's views certainly represent one portion of what would have been in it.  There are a variety of interests that make posting stuff openly dangerous for *someone*.  Publishers have different interests than designers, who have different interests than authors, who have different interests than the families of authors, who have different interests than large manufacturers, who have different interests than boutique manufacturers.  In turn, people who just want to learn have different interests in seeing stuff than do people who want to make one thing for themselves, who have different interests than people who want to make a grey market income selling clones of name pedals, who have different interests from competitors who want to find out how the competition does it, etc, etc. I think this gives one a taste for how many different  points of view there can be.....and why I never finished preparing the document.

On the other hand, as much as we've niggled about the finer points of what ought to be and ought not to be posted from the book, I have to take my hat off for Colin, who actually did the homework and DID receive clearance from the author.  I know he puts me to shame.  I'm pleased it was not all that painful for him and that it worked out fine.  Amidst all the hubbub, hopefully one of the things folks will remember is that you CAN ask and get permission, and there doesn't have to be lawyers or royalties or any BS, just. simple civility

[puretube]

Puretube, I'm not sure I understand you-Are you saying that the files I have on the site aren't worth posting because they wouldn't make any money if I had tried to make money with them?

Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying.

-Colin

No: I meant to say, that after s.th. already is available for free
(be it printed or online),
no one will go to the bookstore anymore to pay for that.

So there will be no buyers for that book, which makes it sense-less
(= not worth of) printing a new edition.

My concern never has been that you might wanna get money out of
posting the stuff
- I`m sure you never even thought of that (you just wanna do some "good" and spread your findings among the hungry diy-ers) - ,
but that the original writers/publishers/printers/bookstores...
have their income chopped off.