How many of you do this for a living?

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

Bob Moog, Roger Mayer and Mike Matthews get my salutations for being at the cutting edge of this with the right balance of book smarts and applied experiencial smarts at the right time

I don't know about Roger Meyer's commercial experience, but Mike Matthews & Bob Moog learnt 'the hard way'. Bob Moog lost control of his company and even his name (he has his name back now, after a legal battle) and Mike Matthews tried to stand up to union standover guys who wanted his shop unionised & they forced him to bankruptcy. There is a lot more to gettign a company going than being a good engineer, unfortunately! Most of the famous electronic music pioneers have been broke (or unemployed) at least once.

[mattv]

There is a lot more to gettign a company going than being a good engineer, unfortunately! Most of the famous electronic music pioneers have been broke (or unemployed) at least once.

I got a "vintage synthesizer" book at the used book store. It had all the business stories of Moog and Matthews and the Arp guys and who ever else. Man, that book is depressing.

[djmartins2]

Sad stories about all these guys businesses.
EH is the one that makes me the maddest!
If I was him, I would have out crazied the union guys,
but I am a fighter who won't back down if the law
won't protect me when I am in the right.

The leeches will always come out to suck your blood if
you are doing really good!

Stay small and low profile and you'll do better...

I am a mechanical engineer, and let me tell you I make
my money because far too many in this field are
total idiots and incapable of doing real engineering work.
I wouldn't trust them to design a shoe lace!
So I get to clean up thier mistakes and try to
get something out the door that stands a chance of working.
All of it ends up being piss poor design, but I'm not the boss....
I see it all as a total waste of resources, but that is how
most everything is done today.

Maybe that's why I drive antique cars and love antique guitars
and music.

DJ

PS - I must confess that I do have a Variax and a Podxt and have nothing
but good stuff to say about them!
Amazing stuff, great design work, and to hell with the purists
who can't appreciate the digital modeling stuff.
But I still make analog pedals for fun!

[donald stringer]

This is an interesting post to say the least. When I was a kid there was three thing I wanted to be#1 a race car driver, I desighned more cars on paper..... the second thing.. a scientist , I wanted to study anything ,it was all very intersting for me to see how things worked, how to manipulate numbers, levers gears . I mean the whole gammut of things even remotely connected to becoming a mad scientist . As I envisioned it in [1968] I could see in my minds eye the scientist in his lab in some euphoric state of bliss, totally unconnected with the outside world, at least that is the way I saw it. I was a library geek to some extent. The third thing was a rock star and a love for music . I let the rock star part go but kept the love of music. I let the mad scientist part go but still enjoying new learning curves[ it is a little amazing in how one thing seems to lead to another and twenty something years later having them all come back together, ...all for the love of music. I have said  that to say this I am about the biggest blue collar sheetmetal fabricator there is [non-unionized] that is. They tried to put a union in our shop but that idea was quickly put down. The owner said ,read my lips this is my business and there is not going to be a union here. We have blue collar workers wanting to break into electronics business and we have  tried and true electronic genius right here on this forum saying dont do it the same way I did it. What I am thinking and this is something that I actively put into practise is this, in the end you have to do it for the love of what ever your doing . Hey but that is not saying you cant do things for a living that you hate and not make a lot of money in the process, it is done everyday. So one way or another you have to trade something off. John Mellencamp once said that if all of it fell apart that he would go back to pouring concrete and somewhere there is a concrete worker saying ,man if I just learned how to play my guitar, ..now thats the way you do it, money for nothing and your chicks for free :lol:

[puretube]

.....Roger Meyer's commercial experience, but Mike Matthews & Bob Moog learnt 'the hard way'

: they broke the "they never come back" -rule.

[niftydog]

Hey!

I'm an electronic engineer working in broadcasting.  I also pose as a live audio engineer in my spare time.  I hope to combine my riggers ticket with electronics and perhaps join a team that installs antennas and such.  I love working at height!!!  Something liberating about dangling from a rope...

I would recommend some schooling, if for nothing else it gives you an excuse to spend heaps of time learning about stuff and practising skills.  It will also open your eyes to that which you may not have considered.

[brett]

Hi interesting thread.

Re Peter Snowberg's

I would argue that the ability to not only understand abstract concepts, but the ability to "relate" abstract concepts to each other and the real world is where inspiration is actually fueled.

Very interesting observation.  I've done some reading and actual research into creativity, personality types...that sort of thing.  Interesting stuff.  It's certainly true that with the exception of artistic types, creativity is fueled by an ability to "gut feel" concepts and manipulate their relationships (perhaps more subconsciously than consciously).  Hence, the Albert Einstein quote above, about no school being able to teach him what he needed to know.  About 20% of the population have this feeling of being more comfortable dealing with abstract thoughts than real-world situations.

RE: the relevence or otherwise of school.
One of the good things about my job as a researcher is that I can spend heaps of time in the library (or on the forum).  I also spend an average 30 hours per week just reading.   :shock:  And it's good pay.

How did I get into this unreal job?  12 years in school, 4 years for a Bachelor's degree, 2 (or 3?) for a Master's and just finishing off an 8-year PhD.  So that's at least 26 years in school.  Now, there was no electronics in that, but what I've learned is how to learn.  So when I read, I understand.  So school taught me nothing about electronics, but if I want, I can learn everything about electronics.  

What I've read in the posts above is that many people found school irrelevant and ineffective.  Sadly, that's often the case.     I wish schools and universities spent less time on content (which is out of date so fast, anyway) and more on the process of learning, and enjoying learning.
 
Was that too long and confused?  :wink:

[niftydog]

i can honestly say i learned NOTHING at that school.

we all think that from time to time, but you are reading and writing coherent sentences on this forum aren't you?!

...my friend in 3rd year Electrical Engineering. He said he can do the math and the schematics, but couldn't identify parts on a circuitboard, and that he'll learn that in field once he gets a job.

Wow.  Obviously doing this at a university then?  I did my diploma at a technical college and we got oodles of hands on experience.  In fact, we couldn't pass the course unless we conceived, designed and built a working prototype.

If I were him I simply could not focus purely on the theory.  I would go insane with curiosity.  Even if I wasn't lucky enough to have a job in the field, I would surely be doing kits and mucking about on my own stuff.  Also, people trained in this way tend to misunderstand how real components work; they keep expecting the "ideal op-amp" and perfectly matched transistors.

Your friend really should take it upon himself to do some hands on work.  Not many jobs out there for purely theoretical engineers fresh out of school!

I wish schools and universities spent less time on content (which is out of date so fast, anyway) and more on the process of learning, and enjoying learning.

I agree.  Most schools seem to be missing the point.  But, even my crappy school gave me enough exposure to the "real world" to help me decide which direction to go in.  But it could have been a whole lot better!

[Doug H]

I have an EE degree but I'm a software engineer- real time embedded stuff mostly, but I have done other things. Most of my training has come on the job, but the education provided an important background. I took 3 yrs of vocational electronics in high school too. (I was building my 1st fuzz box when a lot of you were still a gleam in your daddy's eye...)

I think the college education was important. It opened doors for me and gave me opportunities, gave me the background to move around and do different things (s/w instead of h/w for example), and most importantly I think it broadened my mind in a lot of ways. The problem with a lot of tech education is it can be very narrow, niche-y and specialized. Wonderful for the state of the art today, but what about tomorrow? As fast as it changes, it's good to have the background to keep moving.

Most of my training has come on the job, but the background is important. I still refer back to college textbooks from time to time for this pedal stuff, for example.

I've never been interested in running my own company. Just enjoy doing what I do. But I agree with Peter, get over to the business school and take some classes. It doesn't hurt to know more about money, I should have done that more.

Doug

[mikeb]

Someone else posting previously hit on it - doing higher education (post high-school) is a lot about teaching you how to learn, how to find and piece together what you need to solve problems, association .... and dedication and stubborness! Myself, I did a maths/software engineering degree, and have worked as a software engineer / architect for 10 years. However, currently I'm just getting by on making and selling pedals; and this is after a few years ago having a well-paid job, having a mortgage on a large house, and generally being in the 'rat race'. A lot of the 'image' of having a degree, and so on, is fulfulling the requirements for participating in the rat race of promotion, extra pay, more responsibility. Flexibility is very, very important - never stop reading, trying new things, talking to different people. For example, many jobs in my area have suddenly started going to India, where the labout is 75% cheaper and the quality (usually) is just as good.

You'll never get rich working for someone else at x$ per hour, but you WILL avoid a lot of the stress and uncertainly that come from starting and / or running your own company. I would say that MOST of the effort of running a company is actually in the admin/finance/marketing/sales areas - no matter what your product is, all these things are very, very important.

My advice, if it is worth anything, IS to do a post high-school degree, then let your own personal interests lead you on a never-ending journey of acquiring knowledge and understanding. Whilst having the 'paper' means a lot to potential employers, it can mean a lot, lot more if you take it as just the first step.

Mike

[brett]

Gee, that was well-said MikeB.

RE:

I would say that MOST of the effort of running a company is actually in the admin/finance/marketing/sales areas - no matter what your product is, all these things are very, very important.

I've been amazed at the administration required in selling about 5 pedals per month.  I spend an hour every night answering e-mail  :shock: .  (e.g. Could you build an XYZ?  Do you have sound clips? Web site?  Where are your retailers?  And the really annoying: this seems to have more/less/different "punch" than I thought it would - is it ok?)

Best thing is that I feel justified in spending so much time on pedals, and challenged in thinking about or building some of the gear that people requested.

But all in all, I think I'm quitting after about 20 more pedals...

[Sic]

"we all think that from time to time, but you are reading and writing coherent sentences on this forum aren't you?! "

I was reading and writing at 2 :p

[Sic]

Btw, thanks for all the very honest and heartfelt responses. It makes me feel part of something bigger hearing all these responses. sometimes i can get lost in myself.

Someone once said i was a hopeless romantic...

I like to consider myself a hope-FUL romantic.


I appreciate this post alot, thanks again

[Sic]

re-reading over my posts i can't help but feel that i have come across as arrogant and snobish. If i have offset anyones feelings in this manner, i do apologize.

I meant this as an exploratory post to see the different kinds of lives this cornicopia of people lead.

wow im tired... 14 hour day today, hehe...



-sic

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

What I've read in the posts above is that many people found school irrelevant and ineffective.  Sadly, that's often the case.     I wish schools and universities spent less time on content (which is out of date so fast, anyway) and more on the process of learning, and enjoying learning.  

Well I'll agree with that! in any school/college class, if people aren't actually interested in the subject, everyone's time is being wasted. But here's a hint: mathematics NEVER goes out of fashion!

[Peter Snowberg]

I didn't detect any snobbishness or arrogance. Don't worry about it Sic.

We're all here because even when we do this stuff for a living, we still love it as a hobby.

There aren't all that many people who spend their lives immersed in electronics from the creation end. Having this place which allows us to get together world-wide where we can mix electronics and music is a very special thing! I'm willing to bet that everybody who has contributed to this thread is encouraged whenever a younger person decides to look at making electronics their profession. Some of us may be shaking our heads.... but in a good way. :lol:

Welcome to the family! (...but you were already a part of it anyway )

Best of luck and take care,
-Peter


PS:

But here's a hint: mathematics NEVER goes out of fashion!

Wise words!

[puretube]

We're all here because even when we do this stuff for a living, we still love it as a hobby

YO !

[DouglAss]

I'd have to agree with pretty much everyone

I think it's good to remember that doing something as a bisusiness means it's a business...Widget Co is not in the biz of making Widgets they are in the biz of making money THROUGH making Widgets.

In a very realy way, the engineering is secondary (don't let my marketing team hear me say that...I'm engineering management and have to fight the engineering battles against the Sales/marketing division).

That's one of the problems engineering-based companies face...they think technology first and don't really flesh out the biz realities...like, oh, say the entire dot-com fiasco (not limited to that, nor did it start there -- it's been around forever)

Unfortunately, like any school -- biz classes may not relate to "real world" just as engineering classes (I know many teams that won't hire "straight through" MBAs)

I think the school value yes/no is a matter of personal application...in whatever field.  One can sort of passively take the classes and answer the questions on the test...or one can ask the prof for help with a notion or a side project or whatever.
You shouldn't be in school to be TAUGHT, you should be in school to LEARN.  One has to sort of actively mold the experience.
When I look at a jr's resume and see, say, a BS - OK that means you are trainable