Band of Gypsies OCTAVIA; RM or Tyco??

[Bluesrock]

Hi all!

What's your opinion; was it the transformerless Roger Mayer Octavia or the Tycobrahe Octavia that was used during these performances?

Thanks!

Best Regards,
Koen

[al3151]

I say Roger Mayer just because he was Jimi's homey.

[Craig V]

I'm not 100% sure about this, but the Tychobrahe Octavia didn't come out until 1972..... So.... Roger Mayer.

[Bluesrock]

Thanks guys!

From what I read on the net, they based the Tycobrahe on the earlier RM design (= with transfo). Also, the octavio supposedly used a 24V supply, whereas the 'new' RM and the tyco use a 9V supply. From what I can see on the photo's there isn't a power cord going to the octavia, so probably this is a battery operated unit, probably 9V... Right?!?

What I really should know is which of these two sounds most like BOG, so then I know which one to build!

Best Regards,
Koen

[eaze]

See this...

http://www.emplive.com/create/pedals/octavio.asp

[Craig V]

You can see that pedal from the above link on the cover of "Band of Gypsys" or the "Live at the Fillmore" cd.  I get confused which cause they are basically the same concert.  I think it's the Fillmore cd cause he's playing the guitar in between his legs.

[Bluesrock]

I already got that link, but thanks anyway.

Yes, it sure is that one...but what's inside??
There's no sign of a power lead, so it'll be 9V...But with or without transfo??

Koen

[Craig V]

I think Roger Mayer didn't use a transformer in his.  

On that EMP website, it says "Izabella" used an octavia - I really think that's just wah and the Univibe.


I have a Tychobrahe clone model, and it can do the Hendrix thing well.  The RM might be better suited, though, because it runs cleaner, not as fuzzy.  No octavia pedal I've played gets the octave sound below about the 7th fret.  The same thing happens on "Who Knows."  

BOG is one of my favorite records.

[Bluesrock]

Thanks for you reply's!

I'll start with the RM; no transfo is easier!
I'll let you know how it works out!

Best Regards,
Koen

[RedHouse]

Ok I would have guessed it was an RM Octavia just because the guy worked for him at that time BUT having just built both an RM Octavia and Tycobrahe Octavia I decided to Pepsi-Challenge them and answer the question for myself.

Having a copy of Band Of Gypsys in my CD player and grabbing my Strat I can for certain say I'm convinced the RM is the one, the Tyco while kinda close just isn't the sound.

Specially on the song "Who Knows" when Jimi comes in after Buddy Miles  does his scat thing, there is the purest, best example of the octavia he ever recorded (IMHO) it's definately not Tycobrahe type.

Then, as the cronic experimenter I am, I hacked an input to the octavia section of the RM octavia just after the fuzz section (where the .1uF cap is) and tried using my modified Ge FuzzFace as the input, wow, to me it sounds way better, so much that I'm gonna build a RM style octavia that uses the older Fuzzface circuit as the driver instead of the PNP/NPN fuzz in the RM octavia.

[Bluesrock]

Thanks Redhouse for that great comparison! You convinced me!
I haven't started building yet, but it will be soon!

About the Ge FF in front: could it be that the tranny's in your octavia are a bit weak? So the signal is not strong enough?

Best Regards,
Koen

[petemoore]

On Your RM Octavia Mod., using a FF front end...
 Where did you 'cut' the front of the RM?
 To save looking and typing...is it right before the 'middle' MPSA transistor, where the base is connected to a 330k [to ground]  and a 470k to 9V?

[RedHouse]

Bluesrock, I don't believe my 2N5087 and 2N5088 transistors in my RM-Octavia are weak, perhaps just the opposite as weakness just isn't the issue but as with all silicon based fuzz/distortion circuits they can be shrill/harsh. If you've built silicon based fuzz circuits you'll know what I'm talking about.

No I meant to say that the Ge-FF front end added a real nice fullness to the RM Octavia, an Octavia by design has a very thin sound  but of course that would depend on how you use an octavia(when you back-off the drive/fuzz to the point where you can actually hear the pseudo-ring-modulation) I'm not talking about using it as a hyper-fuzz.

Anyway, today I went one step further and breadboarded an octavia portion of the circuit into a PNP design so I could sample it using a Ge AC125... it worked wonderfully, gave me some motivation to build an all-germanium Octavia. Really brough out the Band Of Gypsys "Who Knows" sound.

Pete, to answer your question I broke into the chain where the .01 cap is between the Q2 and Q3, reference Phillip's schematic, I can't post mine as I have no website but my RM octavia is the same as Phillips schematic shows here:
(Kudo's Phillip)

http://bryant02.home.att.net/schematics/mayeroctaviaschem.gif

In my opinion the RM Octavia wouldn't use MPSA13 transistors, I believe he uses BC549 and BC550 types (2N5088) but that's just my opinion. I know Phillip's schemo lists them as MPSA13's but I don't believe they are the darlingtons, way too much gain.

Note the assembly around Q4 is just an output buffer and is not important to the octavia sound, that whole portion can go away (optionally) I changed my caps to .1uF

If you compare the schematic of the RM octavia and an RM Axis fuzz you will notice the Q1 & Q2 part of the RM Octavia is simply an RM Axis Fuzz minus one 10k resistor.

Next you may notice the Q3 portion is actually where the "octavia" stuff happens.

Last one might notice the Q4 stuff is just a output buffer.

So all I did was grab all the stuff relating to Q3 and it's functionaity and proto-boarded it with an AC125 based FF front end, boy it sounded great (to me) then I modified the Q3 section to PNP and used another AC125 there, sounded even better!.

Note that IMHO, the Axis Fuzz isn't the best sounding fuzz in fact a Brett-style-piggyback Si FF sounds to me way better than an Axis.

[brett]

Hi.

I don't believe my 2N5087 and 2N5088 transistors in my RM-Octavia are weak

It seems a bit odd to me to use a 2N5087 and 2N5088 in the RM input section, then swap to Germanium.  

The original transistors in that circuit were 2N3906 and 2N3904 (ie same as the Axis.  The distortion section of this circuit is just an Axis).  With the drive control kept at a reasonable level, you can get quite a soft distortion out of an Axis (or an Axis).  For those that don't want to swap to a Ge Fuzzface input, try the 3906 and 3904 trannies, then reduce the 22uF bypass cap to 4.7uF, then reduce the feedback resistor to 33k, and by then it will be one soft little sucker.  (mine has the first two mods, with the 4.7uF cap on a switch)

have fun with it.  The RM octavia is one neat pedal.

[RedHouse]

Maybe I wasn't clear in my post.

Brett, I didn't build my RM-Octavia with 2N5087/5088 then swap to Ge's if that's what you're understanding from my post, what I meant to communicate here was that as an experiment I removed the .01uF cap that couples Q2 to Q3 and used that point as a break-out by soldering two wires long enough to reach my proto-board setup so I could easily switch in/out the fuzz sections comparing Ge and Si drive sections with  the octavia section (which is Q3 and the diodes) in a Pepsi Challenge kind of way (anyone remember those old commecials?) it was all done on my protoboard with my RM-Octavia board hanging off the side.

I'm not suggesting anyone else do it, or even saying it's a hot mod, I'm just reporting that I found some different tone to be had from this 'ol Octavia by sub'ing different drive circuitry, perhaps others might wish to try driving it with a TS808 or some FET based stuff like a Sweet-Thing etc.

[Vincent Volta]

Hey,
You should try a Foxx tone machine. Nevermind the originality of devices; I run my modded Firebird thru a tone machine clone thru a Mesa amp and get a " Fire" or "Purple Haze" tone fairly easily. Cheers