Ethics of selling pedals. Need help.

[sir_modulus]

I have been aproached by numerous people to sell my pedals to them. I use layouts/ schematics from all over the web, and make pedals(a lot) that are still in production(like i made my own version of Bassballs using 2 Dr.Quack's and a MXR Bluebox). I mod them a bit (change caps and stuff) but they still are much like the original. Is it right for me to sell, Am i cheating the company or the people who make the layouts. I need some help here and if someone could advise me that would be great.

LM 250+

[petemoore]

There's an artice at AMZ all about peddling pedals...

[sir_modulus]

I just read the whole article and what i am doing is not really bad. I'm not setting up a commercial business, so i think it's okay. I''ll keep monitering this so i know if anyone has something to add

[Marcos - Munky]

I think if you get the permission from the sites' authors that you got the layouts and schematics, there's no problem. And put the site address in some place of the box or the effect's manual if you do one.

[Fret Wire]

I think the problem with cloning, is when individuals claim it is their own design, and charge boutique prices. Nothing the matter with cloning, especially circuits that aren't made anymore,  if your upfront about it, and your prices reflect that.
   A good example is a script logo Phase 90. If someone wants that vintage sound, they have to pay vintage prices for aged electronics. Corroded PCB's, deteriated wiring, aged caps, sprung jack contacts, etc. If you offer a reasonable priced clone that sounds like the original, with some modern conveniences like LED and truebypass, there's nothing wrong with that. If you offer the same clone advertised as your own phaser design and charge $250, that's wrong.
  Just my 2 cents.

[StephenGiles]

So long as you don't adopt the appalling tactics of our respective governments it's not worth losing any sleep over.

[Fp-www.Tonepad.com]

Read our Legal page.

We have granted licences to use our layouts commercially to a couple of builders. Contact me by email if you're interested in using tonepad layouts to make pedals and sell them (and not violate the licensing agreement).

Fp

[Brian Marshall]

i think if you are going to do it you should at least buy the boards from they guys that make the layouts.

I am building a 440 clone for a guy for $50..... board was 15 box 7 switch 6 jacks and pots 5.... other components, and paint.... probably $10...  yeayyyyyy i made $5..... oh wait shipping...... ok im in the hole $1

[YouAre]

I say it all depends on your profit. If you have a flat rate for your labor, and charge for parts and shipping, i guess its ok. This is assuming the guys knows what you're building. But if you say its your own pedal and you mod like one cap, and charge a ridiculous amount of money for a little shit job, then you deserve what's coming to you...::coughcarcrashcough::

[sir_modulus]

I don't charge too much. Usually like $100 canadian max or $110 for like a fuzz face (thats like $75 US) And this is only cauz i finish the pedals real nice, and put good stompswitches and boards are all tinplated and stuff. My rate depends on the frills. I don't use layouts(like on tonepad), but take schematics and make my own. Is THIS wrong?

[Peter Snowberg]

> is THIS wrong?

As long as the designer of the circuit has released it without a "not for commercial use" or "for personal use only" clause on there I don't see a problem. You are charging for building a pedal for somebody and as long as you publicly say where the design is from it would be fine with me for many of my designs, but everybody is different. You obviously care about quality and I think that probably matters to some designers. If you are unsure about a circuit, e-mail the designer and ask if they are willing to talk about a license. It should be a reasonable amount and everybody wins. I imagine most people would just say go ahead.

You have to make lots of pedals to make a profit so unless that pedal is in production by a boutique builder and still supposed to be a trade secret it's probably fine.

Take care,
-Peter

[RDV]

You are charging for building a pedal for somebody and as long as you publicly say where the design is from it would be fine with me for many of my designs, but everybody is different.

I'd like to see some of your designs....for educational purposes of course. :wink:

I don't sell anything(except caps :wink: ) unless someone asks for something in particular, or giving gifts.

Regards

RDV

[R.G.]

I suspect everyone will have a different set of opinions.

The rules I've always used are pretty much right out of copyright law:
- commercial use of my layouts (and other copyrighted material) requires licensing
- I grant a non-exclusive license to DIYers to make a limited number of boards for their own use. OK, and their brother-in-law, and the kid down the street; Over half a dozen and I start getting the itch to call my junkyard-dog lawyer. 8-)
- commercial license is conveyed either by contract or by buying a licensed board (JD carries my stuff)
- your own artwork, not a derivative of my board layouts, is yours. Do with it what you want, even if it comes from a schematic found on my site. The embodiment of a non-patented circuit into new, original artwork is not a copyright controlled process AFAIK.
- I'm free to do my own layouts of any non-patented schematic that I find, with or without my own modifications.

[brett]

I'm free to do my own layouts of any non-patented schematic that I find, with or without my own modifications

I love this clause.  Yay!!  Let's hope that it's never taken away.

A bit OT:  I work in science and it is fast becoming overwhelmed by lawyers dealing with Intellectual Property issues.  My view of the history of patents is that they were a positive force for encouraging the development of many technologies in the 20th century.  But I think that in the 21st century, they are being used to make the wealthy wealthier and the powerful even more powerful.  One obvious example is the lack of access of poor nations (mainly in Africa) to drugs that have high prices, not because they are expensive to make, but because they are patented (and come mainly from Europe and North America).

[Mark Hammer]

A missing part of this is HOW you sell them.  If you're showing off gear to someone at a jam, and they say "Man, what a great sound!", to which you reply"Yeah, I know, and I made it myself", to which they reply "Are you interested in selling any of your pedals?", and you sell them one for enough to justify letting it go (i.e., price covers costs for parts and a few bucks for labour) then I don't see any problem.  If it is VERY clear that the unit is not the same as its source (i.e., there is nothing on the box that would confuse it with a commercial product), but that, at the same time, it is not "your brilliant invention", then I personally see even less of a problem.

Where I start to get uncomfortable is when people:
a) exploit the R&D of others who are not compensated in any manner for that legwork
b) create the false impression that a pedal is EXACTLY the same as an original
c) try to pass off something that isn't their own AS their own
d) try to actively market stuff in larger-than-one quantities.

In this regard, I'd be a little uncomfortable at making 10 copies of a Blackfire for sale.  When it moves from cost-recovery to revenue generation, that's a whole different ballgame.

I've sold my stuff in the past (and have a mountain of things to sell off to subsidize a major family trip this summer), but generally at parts-cost plus $5-10.  It is rare that I have legending on it which would give more than a hint of its origins if it is based on a commercial product, but like RG I usually pick a goofy name that hints at the origins.

For the folks here, certainly one of the issues is what you do about PCB layouts, which ARE intellectual property.  Case in point is Tonepad.  Francisco does a great job devising layouts for favourite pedals and I'm sure he works hard to produce them.  Churning out 12 copies of one of his layouts on a PnP sheet so you can mass produce a cheap fuzz that uses $5 worth of parts, is taking advantage of someone"s kindness, if you ask me.

If the maker is attempting to sell knockoffs of small production-run boutique pedals (where the original manufacturer depends on sales for their livelihood and not as beer money on top of a job), then it is even more of a no-no.

[sir_modulus]

I'm just selling this to my guitar teacher. Originally it was SUPPOSED to be a Big Muff PI. something went horribly wrong and I get absoloutley nutz more that fuzzface fuzz at max and like Tube Screamer OD at low settings (like 1/10). Well anywhoo, my teacher just wants to buy it and some others for like around $100 Canadian. It cost me like $50 canadian in total, + box finishing and etc... (that cost like $20 + tons of work) so I think it's a fair price.

[puretube]

the biggest problem might turn out to be the fact of having told the whole world...

[Lonestarjohnny]

Maybe EH will Claim you as a wayward son and use you as a tax write/off,   :lol:
JD

[puretube]

...rest of the world, that is... :lol: