lacquer and paint questions

[mojotron]

I bought one of everything (as far as paint..) at Wal Mart and a local car parts store ... and now I'm trying different finishes....

Does anyone know if the Plasti Kote lacquer clear coat and Metal flake is based on something like the ReRanch NitroCelulose lacquer. Maybe I'm getting too many fumes, but I'm really liking the Plasti kote lacquers - they fill evenly, and you can spray some really deep coats.

I finished some guitars in the lacquer ReRanch sells - smells the same - you don't forget fumes like those!!    - but is the Plasti Kote Nitro as well??

About 20 coats of that ReRanch lacquer is perfect for guitars - especially the neck!!

If so, I have to finish a guiar in this stuff...

Also, anyone used soak-off decals with SOL on a lacquer finish. The decal is attached to the lacquer very quickly - too quickly - and I keep getting the decals crooked... Does any on know any tricks for using these with lacquer? When used with enamel, I have all the time in the world to move things around...

Anyone use a lacquer clear coat over baked enamel? I heard that this makes things peel..

[petemoore]

I made a 'painting helmet' with forced air...
 Hair dryer [the old 'home beauty parlor 'base' kind with the tube/helmet].
 Tube
 Helmet
 "remote' hair dryer pumps fresh air through a [long'] tube and into a helmet...the helmet has a visor...keeps fumes from collecting around and inside your head 'n lungs...works great too...the poor mans painting booth. Looks real funny when it's worn also...

[mojotron]

...Looks real funny when it's worn also...

I could imagine... Like a '50's space dude... :shock:  :shock:  :shock:

I generally have been spraying the lacquer outside, then moving it inside under a lamp to maintain aproximately an 80 degree enfironment.....

[onboard]

I gave up on lacquer clearcoating for now, super finishing for sure - but some super fumes to boot. What about a lacquer colorcoat with an acrylic clear? Or are you going for that "showroom shine" on the pedals?  :wink:

Now if you're talking finishing guitars, lacquer lacquer lacquer lacquer lacquer lacquer.


Did I mention lacquer?

Oh yeah, no idea about Plasti Kote.

edit Why not give'em a holler?

[KORGULL]

mojotron wrote:

Anyone use a lacquer clear coat over baked enamel? I heard that this makes things peel..

I did this and everything seems fine.
More specifically, I used Wal-mart "color place" brand yellow enamel and Rustoleum "appliance epoxy" black enamel on the same pedal. Baked both colors seperately - several days apart - then clear-coated with Rustoleum Laquer; 3 - 4 coats 5 or 10 min apart (I think). For primer I used Rustoleum Latex Galvanized primer for aluminum and galvanized steel. It comes in a quart sized can. I just brushed it on but now have a small sprayer I might use next time.
I contacted Rustoleum some time ago to ask about using this primer/enamel/laquer combination. It took about a month for them to get back to me, but they said it was fine and to wait one week after the last coat of enamel before applying the laquer. I only waited 3 or 4 days (I already finished the pedal by the time they returned my E-mail) and it still turned out fine.
Go to the Rustoleum website, they have an address where you can Email technical questions. You'll get an answer eventually.

[nuttmeg1]

Cool! I finally feel like I can contribute instead of just poking around for info!

"I finished some guitars in the lacquer ReRanch sells - smells the same - you don't forget fumes like those!!  - but is the Plasti Kote Nitro as well??"

Plasti Kote lacquer (as with any lacquer you get at Wal-Mart/Autozone/Advance Auto...etc....) is acrylic automotive lacquer. Chemically, I don't know the difference. As for the fumes, acrylic seems to smell sweeter to me, whereas nitro smells more "tart". That may sound REALLY stupid. Sorry. Nitro shot with my gun cures faster and harder than the acrylic in a can.

"About 20 coats of that ReRanch lacquer is perfect for guitars - especially the neck!!"

Take this with a grain of salt. 20 is a bit overkill. I know that Melvyn His%^&* says to do that. The ReRanch stuff may also be "thinned" a little more than I like as well. Next time try 5 then level sand with 400 wet, 5 more and let it cure for 2 to 3 weeks before you level sand with 600, 1000, 1500, 2000, 0000 steel wool, and polish. You'll get a thinner, "new vintage" feeling, finish that will sound better on the body and even the neck.

"Also, anyone used soak-off decals with SOL on a lacquer finish. The decal is attached to the lacquer very quickly - too quickly - and I keep getting the decals crooked... Does any on know any tricks for using these with lacquer? When used with enamel, I have all the time in the world to move things around... "

Before you try to put the decal on, wet-sand the surface with 600(don't sand through). This will level the finish. Then, soak the surface with water. Soak the decal in warm water. When you slip the decal off, use a paper towel to blot the excess water as you slip the decal into position. Continue to blot it with the paper towel until the water and bubbles are gone.

"Anyone use a lacquer clear coat over baked enamel? I heard that this makes things peel.. "


You can shoot lacquer over just about anything, including enamel. It does not work this way in reverse. Enamel over lacquer is where the problems usually occur.

I hope this helps.

[maximee]

petemoore:
I would love to see you wearing the helmet...just for the fun of it...

[mojotron]

mojotron wrote:

Anyone use a lacquer clear coat over baked enamel? I heard that this makes things peel..

I did this and everything seems fine.
I contacted Rustoleum some time ago to ask about using this primer/enamel/laquer combination. .... they said it was fine and to wait one week after the last coat of enamel before applying the laquer...

I will likely do a summary of my experiments, I did one last night where I had a large label - which was made using acitate transparency film - and the lacquer clear coat puckered it up pretty bad - and that was under about 3 coats of polyurethene.... Which is not a setback at all - this is why I do experiments... I'll be trying something else on that enclosure tonight... But, lacquer over enamel is fine - like you said - it has to dry for a few days, I also baked mine between coats.... But, lacquer over Minwax poly clear gloss (from Walmart of course!!) over acetate film is not the way to go....

So, if I let these dry for a few days...
1) lacquer over poly - ok - nice finish
2) lacquer over enamel - ok - seems ok
3) lacquer over poly over labels - may not work - I know with acitate it does not

And, using soakoff decals and SOL
4) poly over enamel - GREAT!!   an outstanding fhinish
5) poly over decals w/SOL over enamel - very good - I could sell pedals done this way - I think a lot of people do, but the edges of the decals are fairly visible in the final finish - need to try a light sanding maybe?
6) lacquer over lacquer (Plasti Kote metal flake) - Great - but requires a long dry time (days) and good buffing w/machine polish to get the same gloss as poly - the finish is much deaper though - I would do a guitar this way...
7) lacquer over decals w/SOL over lacquer - Great - decals edges show the least
a) the decals are glued into the laquer as soon as they hit the surface - work quickly!!!  lots of trial and error :x
b) you really can only do 1 maybe 2 clear coats of laquer before the toner on the decals starts to loose it's edges and/or floats out of position... remember that a lacquer over coat is going to eat into the layers below.
c) fume city!!    I would say this is a negative thing, don't spray where you are breathing

Well... I'll have some pics this weekend...

[mojotron]

Cool!
"I finished some guitars in the lacquer ReRanch sells - smells the same - you don't forget fumes like those!!  - but is the Plasti Kote Nitro as well??"

Plasti Kote lacquer (as with any lacquer you get at Wal-Mart/Autozone/Advance Auto...etc....) is acrylic automotive lacquer. Chemically, I don't know the difference. As for the fumes, acrylic seems to smell sweeter to me, whereas nitro smells more "tart". That may sound REALLY stupid. Sorry. Nitro shot with my gun cures faster and harder than the acrylic in a can.

Coolx2.... Ahhh yes.. I remeber reading a bit on this... I wonder if these would work for guitars?

"About 20 coats of that ReRanch lacquer is perfect for guitars - especially the neck!!"

Take this with a grain of salt. 20 is a bit overkill. I know that Melvyn His%^&* says to do that. The ReRanch stuff may also be "thinned" a little more than I like as well. Next time try 5 then level sand with 400 wet, 5 more and let it cure for 2 to 3 weeks before you level sand with 600, 1000, 1500, 2000, 0000 steel wool, and polish. You'll get a thinner, "new vintage" feeling, finish that will sound better on the body and even the neck.

Well normally 20 coats would be overkill for sure - I was using super light coats and did a lot of sanding... I think the finish on my guitar is actually not that thick... but anyone who is trying this should try to develop a technique before finishing any expensive parts... this is an easy thing to do, but if you have high expectations for guitar finishes - do some homework and practice.... there are countless judgement calls in finishing a guitar - approach finishing guitars like an artistic exercise. Stomp boxes are infinately simpler!!    

"Also, anyone used soak-off decals with SOL on a lacquer finish. The decal is attached to the lacquer very quickly - too quickly - and I keep getting the decals crooked... Does any on know any tricks for using these with lacquer? When used with enamel, I have all the time in the world to move things around... "

Before you try to put the decal on, wet-sand the surface with 600(don't sand through). This will level the finish. Then, soak the surface with water. Soak the decal in warm water. When you slip the decal off, use a paper towel to blot the excess water as you slip the decal into position. Continue to blot it with the paper towel until the water and bubbles are gone.

Great, I will try this and let you know how it works.. Do you use the wet sanding w/600 on enamel and lacquer?

Thanks this does help!    

[nuttmeg1]

I would sand the color/base coats with 600 before aplying the decal. On pedals, the 'mirror shine" isn't as important as a guitar. 2 or 3 coats of clear and you're done. If you want to get crazy, by all means do the 10 coats-wetsand-polish. I can't wait to see your finished pedals. I'm sure they will be KILLER!

[mojotron]

I would sand the color/base coats with 600 before aplying the decal. On pedals, the 'mirror shine" isn't as important as a guitar. 2 or 3 coats of clear and you're done. If you want to get crazy, by all means do the 10 coats-wetsand-polish. I can't wait to see your finished pedals. I'm sure they will be KILLER!

Keep in mind - what I will post later in the weekend are experiments - so they might not be that killer - but I like them a lot considering the enclosures cost me $1.60 each.... I'll post them as a separate thread, as they are the summation of several threads. Now that I have a few boxes put together and I've had a chance to drop them as well as bang them with tools.... But, the lacquer on lacquer seems to hold up quite well to abuse.... I am doing one more experiment to try your technique above with decals on lacquer later in the month I will be shooting hammonds - so this has been a great exercise for that.  

I wish I had taken some pictures of my failures, they really tell a story of what not to do...  :oops:

[hairyandy]

I've been using Rustoleum's Clear-Coat Enamel and so far it works great over their hammerite and metallic finishes.  It dries really fast and allows you to do many coats quickly.  I haven't been sanding at all but I do buff the final result out on the big polishing arbor at the guitar shop where I work.  I usually do about 7-10 coats of the clear enamel.

Here's some shots of some recent ones that I've done.  The graphics are color laser printed onto Avery 8665 labels...

[mojotron]

To everyone... THANKS FOR ALL YOUR HELP! I hope this is helping all of us!

I've been using Rustoleum's Clear-Coat Enamel and so far it works great over their hammerite and metallic finishes. ... The graphics are color laser printed onto Avery 8665 labels...

hairyandy.. these look great!! Your approach seems very streight forward...

So, for these you pretty much clear coat over the Avery clear labels?

Do you bake these at all while coating?

Do you use primer at all or just sand the aluminum and clear coat over that?

Sorry for all the questions ... I am very curious about finding the best method for a durable finish.

[Khas Evets]

My current approach is:

1. Clean metal primer (1-2 coats, dry for 24-48 hours)
2. Hammerite (2-3 coats, dry for 7 days)
3. Label with Avery clear labels
4. Crystal clear enamel (3 coats, dry for 3+ days)

I'm happy with the results, but the dry time of around 10 days is killing me. I may look into the baked enamels if this increases dry time.

[mojotron]

My current approach is:

1. Clean metal primer (1-2 coats, dry for 24-48 hours)
2. Hammerite (2-3 coats, dry for 7 days)
3. Label with Avery clear labels
4. Crystal clear enamel (3 coats, dry for 3+ days)

I'm happy with the results, but the dry time of around 10 days is killing me. I may look into the baked enamels if this increases dry time.

So, are you guys using the labels for InkJet or Laser??
And, then printing with Laster or InkJet??

I have a few printers, both inkjet and laser... The InkJet labels are pretty easy to run out and get, I'm wondering if:
1) can (should??) you print onto the InkJet labels with a LaserJet or, do you need Laser labels for a laserjet?
2) if you do use the InkJet labels and print with an Inkjet... do you have to be careful smudging while clear coating??

THANKS!

[Khas Evets]

I'm printing with a photo quality inkjet on inkjet stock (Avery 8665). If I had a choice, I would probably use a laser printer, but I can't justify buying a laser printer just for this.

[KORGULL]

I use inkjet labels/printer. Never tried the laser printer ones so I don't know how they compare. I know there is a liquid you can buy that melts the  plastic film on the laser labels for a more seamless appearance. Small Bear sells it. You can probably get sharper results with the laser printer too.
I would worry about inkjet paper melting in a laser printer.

[pooka]

to make "paints" interact you need to get paints that use the same kind of solvent, elsewise it will easely "crack". HAMMERITE contains silicone and is dificult to use clearcote on, it make´s "eyes". aluminium usely needs a primer because of oxide