Can delays do this?

[rutledj]

Is it possible for delays (digital or analog) to only "delay" at a given input level as in when you play a note hard? I don't know much about delays so this is a totally noob question.

thanks,
Rut

[tommy.genes]

Toadworks makes a pedal called the Enveloope which can do that with any pedal.

As to how it works, I can only guess that an envelope-controlled gate limits the amount of signal actually entering the effect versus bypassing it. The harder you play, the more (or less) signal the gate lets into the effect.

As for turning that description into a circuit, you're on your own unless someone else here can help you...

-- T. G. --

[nelson]

Interesting....

[mrsage]

Toadworks makes a pedal called the Enveloope which can do that with any pedal.

As to how it works, I can only guess that an envelope-controlled gate limits the amount of signal actually entering the effect versus bypassing it. The harder you play, the more (or less) signal the gate lets into the effect.

As for turning that description into a circuit, you're on your own unless someone else here can help you...

-- T. G. --

It's also reversible, so it works either way. A very cool effect.

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=936666

Sounds awesome with a Fuzz in the loop...so you're playing clean, and the fuzz kicks in as the note dies out. Adds some pretty sweet harmonics and sustain.

[troubledtom]

some delays come w/ a ducking feature that already does this. but that device does look cool.
   i'm sure one could come up w/ a design to do this....... but  the price isn't bad. it gives ' just what you want'.
  i'd think in 4-6 months someone will devize a device that does this.
but i can't mention any namez and it may cost more.
                            peace,
                                  -Tom :wink:

[robotboy]

Toadworks makes a pedal called the Enveloope which can do that with any pedal.

As to how it works, I can only guess that an envelope-controlled gate limits the amount of signal actually entering the effect versus bypassing it. The harder you play, the more (or less) signal the gate lets into the effect.

As for turning that description into a circuit, you're on your own unless someone else here can help you...

-- T. G. --

It's also reversible, so it works either way. A very cool effect.

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=936666

Sounds awesome with a Fuzz in the loop...so you're playing clean, and the fuzz kicks in as the note dies out. Adds some pretty sweet harmonics and sustain.

That is one cool effect! Does anybody know of any equivalent DIY projects?

[MartyMart]

That is a VERY COOL idea .... hmmm ....

Marty. :wink:

[robotboy]

That is a VERY COOL idea .... hmmm ....

Marty. :wink:

I'm still pretty much completely in the dark when it comes to these things, but... it seems like one could use something similar to the vactrol portion of the uglyface (envelope filter) in conjunction with a circuit similar to the paralooper to split the signal. I just with I had the know-how to make it happen.

[MartyMart]

That is a VERY COOL idea .... hmmm ....

Marty. :wink:

I'm still pretty much completely in the dark when it comes to these things, but... it seems like one could use something similar to the vactrol portion of the uglyface (envelope filter) in conjunction with a circuit similar to the paralooper to split the signal. I just with I had the know-how to make it happen.

No secrets here, its just got me thinking ....
I have the same deal in my Line 6 echo pro .. kind of a "ducking" delay
which is great for letting vocals "breath" as soon as the level drops, the
delays kick in, so all the lyrics are nice and clear.
Kind of "compression" on the delay return ....  and the opposite is
"expansion" .....

Marty.

[object88]

kind of a "ducking" delay which is great for letting vocals "breath" as soon as the level drops, the delays kick in, so all the lyrics are nice and clear.

Indeed; I've been picking up on this in a number of albums I've been listening to recently.  Of course, I can't remember any specifically, but it works brilliantly.

[geertjacobs]

Is it possible for delays (digital or analog) to only "delay" at a given input level as in when you play a note hard? I don't know much about delays so this is a totally noob question.

Can't you do this with a "gate"?
I remember seeing an interview with David Bowie where he was telling how he recorded a special vocal track.
They had three mics in the studio, each one placed further away. he sang in front of the first mic.
If he sang louder, a "gate" would "open" and the vocals would also be recorded through the second mic. If he screamed even louder another "gate" would activate the third mic.
Can't a modified noise gate do this kind of stuff?

G.

[rutledj]

Can't you do this with a "gate"?

This seems logical but I think the main obstacle to overcome is not hearing the switch-over point, probably through some type of filtering.

When I listened to the Envelooper samples I could swear I could hear when it kick in and out. Anyone else catch this?

Rut

[virtualtoad]

Toadworks makes a pedal called the Enveloope which can do that with any pedal.

As to how it works, I can only guess that an envelope-controlled gate limits the amount of signal actually entering the effect versus bypassing it. The harder you play, the more (or less) signal the gate lets into the effect.

As for turning that description into a circuit, you're on your own unless someone else here can help you...

-- T. G. --

Actually, it limts the amount of signal passed back into the RETURN jack... not really important when using a modulation efect, but it's a BIG deal if you're using a delay... think about it...

[virtualtoad]

Toadworks makes a pedal called the Enveloope which can do that with any pedal.

As to how it works, I can only guess that an envelope-controlled gate limits the amount of signal actually entering the effect versus bypassing it. The harder you play, the more (or less) signal the gate lets into the effect.

As for turning that description into a circuit, you're on your own unless someone else here can help you...

-- T. G. --

Actually, it limts the amount of signal passed back into the RETURN jack... not really important when using a modulation efect, but it's a BIG deal if you're using a delay... think about it...

Of course you can hear it kick in & out - obvoiusly, as it kicks in, you hear more effect... but if you mean there is some extra noise that occours when the unit switches on or off, the answer is NO, it's dead quiet.

[Mark Hammer]

Actually, it limits the amount of signal passed back into the RETURN jack... not really important when using a modulation efect, but it's a BIG deal if you're using a delay... think about it...

Excellent point.  If you gate out the delay signal after the delay chip (but before the mixer stage) the recirculation has no way to make it out of there towards the mixer.

On the other hand, if the gate is introduced ahead of the delay section, then what you gate out is essentially any new input/content, and not the recirculation.  Line 6 calls this "trails" on their pedals.  That is, whatever is in the delay path continues until its final decay, but you don't add content to the delay path.

Both the Boss CE-1 and the A/DA Flanger used a simple gate to address BBD noise.  In their case, however, the objective was to kill audible clock noise during periods when that's all the signal there was.  Consequently, the gate was placed after the BBD, and the threshold was fixed and set pretty darn low.  Something such as is being discussed here would be applied between the input stage and the point where the recirculated signal is mixed in with the original.

Looking at the schematic for the Scott Swartz AD3208 project ( http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/diagrams/ad3208_schematic.pdf ), you can see a point "A" just after the input stage.  Point A ties to the "clean" inputon the mixer stage at the output.  This is, in a sense, our last point where we can intervene without buggering up the recirculation.  If one was to send a feed from point A to an envelope follower of some kind (your choice) that would, in turn, change a FET's state during silent or softer parts or simply below some predetermined threshold, you could achieve something like described in the Toadworks pedal.

So, let's say one had an arrangement something like the Orange Squeezer, where an 82k series resistor and a FET to ground form a kind of attenuator.  This would go between point A and the 1uf cap immediately after it.  Using something like the OS circuit, pick hard and the FET resistance goes lower, attenuating the input signal going to the compander and delay chip.  Whatever is recirculating at that moment is untouched, but new content will not be entered into the delay path until the input signal decreases and the FET value goes high again.

In the case of the CE-1 and A/DA Flanger, the FET stayed "off" as long as one was playing, and when you stopped, the FET would go "on" (lower resistance) and attenuate the signal - essentially the opposite to what the OS does.  It is possible to construct a circuit where the threshold of action and the *direction* of action (attenuate during softer parts or louder parts) could be dictated.  Incidentally, the PT80 ( http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/diagrams/pt80schem.pdf ) and AD3208 are pretty much identical as regards this sort of add-on.

A more deluxe version might have a FET-based gate/attenuator situated both before and after the delay section (e.g., between the Delay level pot and the 1uf cap after it), perhaps between the Recirculation/Repeat pot and its entry back to the compander, maybe even with different actions and thresholds.  So, play medium hard and new content is gated out of the delay input path, but play even harder than that and your recirculated output also gets trimmed back.  There are tons of combinations of picking-driven attenuation possible.  No reason why each envelope follower needs to have the same time constants either.  One can be faster than the other.

Of course, here we are drifting into the realm of textures and ambiences, rather than more specific control over a brief solo.  Still, kinda fun to think about.

[davebungo]

Can't you do this with a "gate"?

This seems logical but I think the main obstacle to overcome is not hearing the switch-over point, probably through some type of filtering.

When I listened to the Envelooper samples I could swear I could hear when it kick in and out. Anyone else catch this?

Rut

From my experience, a 400uS attack (gate in) time provides a crisp attack which would be suitable for drums and the like and 2mS provides a softer attack perhaps for vocals and other sources.  If the attack time was too quick you would hear the edges of the gate modulation.

[Killer Queen]

That's a pretty damn useful effects box.
So how do envelopes work exactly? (Not what they do, but how they work technically). Sound like a pretty cool feature to add into stompboxes.
It would be great for an EQ- you could vary it with the dynamics of your playing. Pretty nifty!
Speaking of envolopes, why not make something like an autowah, but instead of controlling the sweep of a Wah pedal, it controls the manual sweep of a phaser of flanger? (Or the speed of a leslie sim, or panning, or the depth of a chorus, etc etc.)

[Dave_B]

That's a pretty damn useful effects box.
So how do envelopes work exactly? (Not what they do, but how they work technically).

Essentially, you filter the audio signal to the point that it becomes a DC voltage.  The harder you play, the higher the voltage.  Is that what you were asking?

Speaking of envolopes, why not make something like an autowah, but instead of controlling the sweep of a Wah pedal, it controls the manual sweep of a phaser of flanger?

Anderton did that very thing: http://www.paia.com/epfmenvf.wav  It's not a the coolest sounding sample, but the last couple of seconds give you the idea.

[Mark Hammer]

Sound like a pretty cool feature to add into stompboxes. ....why not make something like an autowah, but instead of controlling the sweep of a Wah pedal, it controls the manual sweep of a phaser of flanger? (Or the speed of a leslie sim, or panning, or the depth of a chorus, etc etc.)

The Tap Tremolo from Line 6 alters the tremolo rate in response to picking dynamics.  The E-H Polyphase did this too.  The soon-to-be-released Line Liqui-Flange does envelope-controlled flanging, where the manual flange control is essentially automatically controlled.  The ananlog Foxrox Paradox Flanger also does this.  The old Eventide Flanger did this too.