Slightly OT: Is a pedal chain at mic level or line level?

[David]

I just got this AN-1000X powered monitor.  When I tried it in the store, it was tested with a straight guitar run into the line level input.  Wednesday I took it home and hooked it to my rig for rehearsal.  I used the XLR mic input this time and turned phantom power off.  I got MASSIVE signal level out of the thing when I used distortion.  When I played clean it was kind of quiet.  That didn't surprise me too much since it was on the floor at the time.  What did surprise (and disappoint) me was that the monitor got rather distorted when I kicked in my graphic EQ pedal.  I've concluded that I probably should try the line level input when I'm using my pedal rig.

Observations: A guitar amp it ain't.  Very cold and sterile.  I expected that.  I plan to correct this situation with delay/reverb, a Supreaux or Professor Tweed simulator, and possibly a Condor on the end of the pedal chain.  I also noticed that by raising it up off the floor, I could turn the monitor down and make its output clearer.  Also no surprise, but not what I was hoping for.  I'd like to attach the monitor right to my pedal board.

Questions:  Will the amp sim/speaker sim duo get me close enough to line level to use this input effectively, or will I still need something like an Adjusticator?    At what distance does a powered monitor start to lose effectiveness?

As always, thanks!  Maybe someday I can contribute something other than questions.

[davebungo]

Firstly, I have to ask why you bought a powered monitor instead of a regular guitar amp?
The problem here seems to be that there is no input gain control; simply a mic input, a line input and an output level/volume control.  Is this assumption correct?
It is not unusual for microphones to require 40dB or more of input gain to get the signal up to "line" level so the mic input will have this sort of gain but it appears to be fixed in this case.  This is why you experienced input overload distortion when you applied a little bit of boost using your graphic.
The line input will be largely insensitive to guitar signals and also the input impedance may be in the 10's of K rather than the 100's of K or more required by guitars in order to maintain signal quality and frequency response.  In this case I would therefore suggest using the line level input fed via some form of buffer - the amp sim may do the trick if it has an output level control.

[David]

I bought a powered monitor because at the rate I'm going, it'll be 2112 before I get to the amplifier stage of my integrated pedalboard/amplifier project that I've been working on since April of 2002.  My motivation for doing all this is that I play in the praise band at church.  I've had one amplifier stolen from church and $200 of damage to a Classic 30 by a thoughtless sound tech.  I have about five minutes if I'm lucky between the time I get in and the first service starts.  During that time, I may have to:  1)  set up my rig again because some idiot moved it  2) recover a piece of personal equipment that some kid "borrowed"  3) work around an equipment failure.   I can't guarantee that my equipment will be set up Sunday morning as I left it Wednesday night.  Since I don't need the aggravation, I'm working on a rig that I can carry easily and set up quickly.  That way, I can take it home after practice and set it up Sunday morning with a minimum of fuss.  The powered monitor saves me the hassle of trying to build a Ruby or 3886 derivative and coping with the concomitant problems.  I get small size and high output.  Best of all, I should be able to get it to sound decent with a little bit of work.  For once, it'll be a steak I didn't have to cook, to paraphrase Clay in another thread.

Edit:  I switched to using the line level input.  It's much tamer, but still sterile now.  The amp sim / speaker sim combo might be just the ticket.

[dosmun]

It sounds like a modeler is what you need.

[David]

It sounds like a modeler is what you need.

Nope.  Never happen.  No way.

[donald stringer]

dave ,I"m sorry that you have had such trouble with your equipment. I have been there and done that. unsupervised youths seem to think that other peoples equipment is fair game. How many times that I had left my equipment in perfect state, the mixer levels just the way it should be and came back with pedals plugged in=[dead batterys], mixer levels rearranged on my mic. line in moved to suit someone else,s need. Why it makes playing praise songs more of an political race than worship.Not to mention getting on the wrong side of the person that runs the board[you will be lucky to ever have a consistent tone or even be heard above the other players. Stay with line level but dont laugh at  modelers an simple rp-50 while yeilding dozens of useful tones can be worth its weight in gold. The blackface modeling is worth the price of admission and useful for a variety of tones.Plus its very affordable and portable. Its useful to also make note of your mixer levels [unless your board is locked up from sunday to sunday its quite futile to expect your setting to remain the same. That was the first thing that I checked on sunday morning, the board levels.  Digitech has it happening in the modeling line of pedals.

[David]

Thanks for the support, Donald.  I don't worry about the house mix.  Our tech expertise is all over the map, and I already have more to worry about than I should.  As for output, I can burn the rest of the band any time I choose to.  My Classic is 30W RMS, but it is one LOUD beast!  I usually have it on about 3.  For the last 6 months or so, it was just my stage monitor.  My sound has come from my pedals.  I think I like it better that way.  Having a boost on my pedalboard means I always have it available for leads and there ain't nothing a tech can do to stop it.

I don't want to sound like I'm down on playing worship.  Far from it.  That's what's keeping me sane.  It's just that with an all-volunteer program, there's a wide range of expertise, dedication and commitment among the sound and other support personnel.  Fortunately, the band has 3 excellent and consistent core members that hold things together.  We have a good working relationship.  The vocalists trust us too.  I don't worry about what the sound people think.  They know I know more about music, electronics and sound reinforcement than they do.  Usually, I'm the only guitarist.  When I'm not heard, there are complaints from the congregation.  Things are getting better.  Slowly.  Especially if I can tame this AN-1000X.

As for digital, I just can't.  Not yet, anyway...

[niftydog]

First up, a guitar rig is at neither mic nor line level, it's at what I call "instrument" level, which is somewhere in between the other two! Handy, huh?

Ok, running it at mic level is highly likely to lead to distortion, as you've found. And, running it at line level leads to not enough volume. Solution; convert to line level. The Adjusticator will do this pretty well, I beleive.

The only other rig I've seen using this approach was one using "Guitar Rig" software, and the laptop outputs line level to the powered monitor.

Most monitor speakers are designed with close proximity in mind, but often these days speakers are "jack-of-all-trade" types that will do ok in most situations.

[donald stringer]

I have an classic 30 , pm me how you have it rigged[I know it is loud] I have mine run through a 4/speaker cab. Good luck with your project.

[David]

First up, a guitar rig is at neither mic nor line level, it's at what I call "instrument" level, which is somewhere in between the other two! Handy, huh?

Ok, running it at mic level is highly likely to lead to distortion, as you've found. And, running it at line level leads to not enough volume. Solution; convert to line level. The Adjusticator will do this pretty well, I beleive.

The only other rig I've seen using this approach was one using "Guitar Rig" software, and the laptop outputs line level to the powered monitor.

Most monitor speakers are designed with close proximity in mind, but often these days speakers are "jack-of-all-trade" types that will do ok in most situations.

Handy?  No.  Accurate?  Yes.  I thought long and hard about the Adjusticator.  I'm still thinking about it.  Thanks for reminding me about another possible solution.